Certainty of Saints in Heaven

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  • #1488

    Victor
    Member

    [color=darkred:1bnlfedj]One of my confirmation students officially stumped me. He asked:[/color:1bnlfedj]

    [i:1bnlfedj]How do we know Saints are in heaven for sure? If the Church doesn’t have any authority to make infallible proclamations regarding a person’s eternal resting place. Maybe the person we call a saint is really in Hell.[/i:1bnlfedj]

    [color=darkred:1bnlfedj]What would you say?[/color:1bnlfedj]

    #7435

    weather
    Member

    One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

    Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

    In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

    http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying … Saints.asp

    #7437

    Ron K
    Member

    Revelation 5 never shows anyone listening and pleading our cases before
    God, nor interceding any more then the mailman intercedes for you.

    2ndly – the Bible refers to saints as living believers not people that have died and been “declared” to have been “good enough” to deserve Heaven.

    Why is it Judgemental for me to say someone is going to Hell for their beliefs, but you don’t think it is that way if I’d say so+so is in Heaven?
    What’s the difference?

    #7448

    weather
    Member

    Prayer to St. Anthony for Those Suffering with Cancer
    Dear St. Anthony,[color=red:19o5mdkn] you recognized Our Lord Jesus as the Divine Healer[/color:19o5mdkn]. [color=red:19o5mdkn]In your goodness and kindness, please intercede for [/color:19o5mdkn]Justin(6 years old) who is suffering from cancer.

    If it is God’s will, I ask that this day, the gift of healing be granted to Justin(our grandson). Comfort him during times of unbearable pain, and ask our Lord to grant him peace and patience in suffering.

    May God give Justin the fullness of life here on earth, or call him home to eternal glory forever. Amen.

    #7450

    weather
    Member

    [quote:wevd5hmh]Revelation 5 never shows anyone listening and pleading our cases before
    God, nor interceding any more then the mailman intercedes for you.

    2ndly – the Bible refers to saints as living believers not people that have died and been “declared” to have been “good enough” to deserve Heaven.

    Why is it Judgemental for me to say someone is going to Hell for their beliefs, but you don’t think it is that way if I’d say so+so is in Heaven?
    What’s the difference?[/quote:wevd5hmh]

    [color=red:wevd5hmh]So Ron,what your saying is forget the “saints”there doing nothing for us?[/color:wevd5hmh]

    #7455

    Ron K
    Member

    I’m just telling you that

    1 Scriptures tell us Not to pray to anyone but God

    2 There is salvation in no other name but Jesus

    so why follow men’s “tradition” if it goes against God’s Word?

    #7459

    weather
    Member

    [quote:1e5yxayi]I’m just telling you that

    1 Scriptures tell us Not to pray to anyone but God

    2 There is salvation in no other name but Jesus

    so why follow men’s “tradition” if it goes against God’s Word?[/quote:1e5yxayi]

    [color=red:1e5yxayi]So if I follow your way of thinking if someone is seriously ill or needs allot of prayers you should not have people pray to God to make you better cause thats intercedeing is that correct? I wonder what all these pray groups are doing when they pray for sick people(is it for naught)?.[/color:1e5yxayi]

    #7461

    Benedict
    Member

    Ron does not understand the difference between praying to God and praying to the saints because, I would venture, they use the same word in English and his general lack of understanding of Catholic beliefs.

    Notice, Ron, that Weather’s first thought is that you are arguing against intercession for one another. Prayer to God is worship; prayer to the saints is asking for their prayers on our behalf. Any attempt on your part to confuse the two is not going to confuse a Catholic.

    #7462

    Victor
    Member

    [color=darkred:kmd7xvb9]Ron, please stop hijacking threads. I really intended this to be a discussion among us Catholics. That’s why I posted it under “All things Catholic”. It is crystal clear to most of us that you disagree with us, but please allow us to discuss topics without you derailing it into some verse throwing war.[/color:kmd7xvb9]

    #7464

    Victor
    Member

    [quote:3a9pk2qv]One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

    Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

    In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

    http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying … Saints.asp[/quote:3a9pk2qv]

    [color=darkred:3a9pk2qv]Weather, the question wasn’t whether they can hear us or intercede for us. But rather, how do we know [b:3a9pk2qv]St. X[/b:3a9pk2qv] is truly in heaven.[/color:3a9pk2qv]

    #7465

    weather
    Member

    [quote:jn04p57z]I’m just telling you that

    1 Scriptures tell us Not to pray to anyone but God

    2 There is salvation in no other name but Jesus

    so why follow men’s “tradition” if it goes against God’s Word?[/quote:jn04p57z]

    [color=red:jn04p57z]Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5).

    But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19‚Äì20).

    The intercession of fellow Christians which is what the saints in heaven are also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1‚Äì4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.[/color:jn04p57z]

    #7466

    weather
    Member

    [quote:1ea0hkuk][quote:1ea0hkuk]One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

    Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

    In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

    http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying … Saints.asp[/quote:1ea0hkuk]

    [color=darkred:1ea0hkuk]Weather, the question wasn’t whether they can hear us or intercede for us. But rather, how do we know [b:1ea0hkuk]St. X[/b:1ea0hkuk] is truly in heaven.[/color:1ea0hkuk][/quote:1ea0hkuk]

    Of the 10,000 plus saints we know about have been canonized so they must be in heaven. The Lutherans believe this. [quote:1ea0hkuk]When the question, “Who are the saints” is asked, the Lutheran Confessions answered, “All believers in Jesus Christ, both those living on earth and those living in heaven.” Both heavenly and earthly saints are confessed. From http://www.orlutheran.com/html/saintlc.html#Anchora

    [/quote:1ea0hkuk]

    #7471

    Ron K
    Member

    Weathers lets not forget what we were referring to! Your initial question was:
    [quote:227a2eaj]
    [b:227a2eaj]So Ron,what your saying is forget the “saints”there doing nothing for us?[/b:227a2eaj][/quote:227a2eaj]
    you and I are referring to those in Heaven, so lets not presume that what you now say:
    [quote:227a2eaj]
    So if I follow your way of thinking if someone is seriously ill or needs allot of prayers you should not have people pray to God to make you better cause thats intercedeing is that correct? I wonder what all these pray groups are doing when they pray for sick people(is it for naught)?.[/quote:227a2eaj]

    this is not mentioning about those in Heaven, so it isn’t my way of thinking! I never said that we cannot pray for others as long as we are on Earth.

    #7473

    Benedict
    Member

    In other words, we are only able to help those whom we love while we are on earth. God strips us of this ability when we are made righteous, reach heaven, and stand in the most perfect position to pray for others.

    #7474

    weather
    Member

    [quote:qpksqb86]Weathers lets not forget what we were referring to! Your initial question was:
    [quote:qpksqb86]
    [b:qpksqb86]So Ron,what your saying is forget the “saints”there doing nothing for us?[/b:qpksqb86][/quote:qpksqb86]
    you and I are referring to those in Heaven, so lets not presume that what you now say:
    [quote:qpksqb86]
    So if I follow your way of thinking if someone is seriously ill or needs allot of prayers you should not have people pray to God to make you better cause thats intercedeing is that correct? I wonder what all these pray groups are doing when they pray for sick people(is it for naught)?.[/quote:qpksqb86]

    this is not mentioning about those in Heaven, so it isn’t my way of thinking! I never said that we cannot pray for others as long as we are on Earth.[/quote:qpksqb86]

    [color=red:qpksqb86]Ron,this is from a Lutheran website[/color:qpksqb86]
    How did Martin Luther and the Lutheran Confessions answer the question, “Who are the saints?” Because Martin Luther and the Lutheran Confessions based all Christian teaching on the Scriptures alone, it is not surprising that their teaching on saints mirrors those Scriptures. Because the Lutherans also considered themselves faithful [color=red:qpksqb86]catholics,[/color:qpksqb86] it is not surprising that they were willing to retain all sound teaching about saints from the [color=red:qpksqb86]ancient Church[/color:qpksqb86].

    When the question, “Who are the saints” is asked, the Lutheran Confessions answered, [color=red:qpksqb86]”All believers in Jesus Christ, both those living on earth and those living in heaven.” Both heavenly and earthly saints are confessed. [/color:qpksqb86]

    The Lutherans also regarded Christians in heaven as saints and were even willing to honor those that the [color=red:qpksqb86]Roman Church regarded as saints[/color:qpksqb86], but in a qualified way. As the Apology puts it, “Our Confession approves honors to the saints. For here a threefold honor is to be approved” (Apology 21.4). The threefold honor is to thank God for the mercy and gifts He manifested in the saints, to be encouraged by the forgiveness they received through Christ when they fell (e.g., Peter’s denials), to imitate their faith and virtues. If we were to use the saints in this way, we would truly honor them, says the Apology.

    All Saints Day is a universal Christian Feast that honors and remembers all Christian saints, known and unknown. In the Western Church (esp. Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans) it is kept on November 1. The Orthodox Churches observe it on the first Sunday after Pentecost.

    Ephrem Syrus (d. 373) mentions a Feast dedicated the saints in his writings. St. Chrysostom of Constantinople (d. 407) was the first Christian we know of to assign the Feast to a particular day: the first Sunday after Pentecost.1 The Feast did not become established in the Western Church, however, until the Roman bishop Boniface IV consecrated the Pantheon at Rome to Christian usage as a church on May 13, 609 or 610.2 The Feast was observed annually on this date until the time of Bishop of Rome, Gregory III (d. 741) when its observance was shifted to Nov. 1, since on this date Gregory dedicated a chapel in the Basilica of St. Peter’s to “All the Saints.” It was Gregory IV (d. 844), who in 835 ordered the Feast of All Saints to be universally observed on Nov. 1.3

    As mentioned above, All Saints Day is celebrated by Roman Catholics, the Orthodox, Anglicans, and [color=red:qpksqb86]Lutherans[/color:qpksqb86] However, because of their differing understandings of the identity and function of the saints, what these churches do on the Feast of All Saints differs widely. For Roman Catholics, the Orthodox, and to some extent, Anglicans,[color=red:qpksqb86] All Saints is a day to remember, thank God for, but also to venerate and pray to the saints in heaven for various helps[/color:qpksqb86]. For Lutherans the day is observed by remembering and thanking God for all saints, both dead and living. It is a day to glorify Jesus Christ, who by his holy life and death has made the saints holy through Baptism and faith.

    http://www.orlutheran.com/html/saintori.html

    #8361

    Carmelite
    Member

    [quote:3uo08qet][color=darkred:3uo08qet]One of my confirmation students officially stumped me. He asked:[/color:3uo08qet]

    [i:3uo08qet]How do we know Saints are in heaven for sure? If the Church doesn’t have any authority to make infallible proclamations regarding a person’s eternal resting place. Maybe the person we call a saint is really in Hell.[/i:3uo08qet]

    [color=darkred:3uo08qet]What would you say?[/color:3uo08qet][/quote:3uo08qet]

    Canonization is infallible.
    In any canonization process, the Pope states that the canonization is declared by the authority of Christ. Here is an example:

    [i:3uo08qet]”For the honour of the Blessed Trinity, the exaltation of the Catholic faith and the fostering of the Christian life, [b:3uo08qet]by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ[/b:3uo08qet], of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own, after due deliberation and frequent prayers for the divine assistance, and having sought the counsel of our Brother Bishops, we declare and define that Bl. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, Edith Stein, is a saint and we enrol her among the saints, decreeing that she is to be venerated in the whole Church as one of the saints. In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. [/i:3uo08qet]
    http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2STEIN.HTM

    [i:3uo08qet]Canonization differs from beatification in part because the former [b:3uo08qet]involves the Pope’s infallible magisterium[/b:3uo08qet], explained Cardinal Jos?© Saraiva Martins, prefect of the Congregation for Sainthood Causes.
    ………………………..
    He added that “the Church acts with a pronouncement that [b:3uo08qet]has the character of a decree, definitive and obligatory for the whole Church[/b:3uo08qet], involving the solemn magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, while this does not happen in the case of beatifications.” [/i:3uo08qet]
    http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=79036

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