April 11, 2009 at 4:29 am #1893
Has anyone gone to heaven yet? arent the dead still dead until the last judgement and then we all go to heaven or hell? so technically everyone is dead until the day of last judgement.
1st thessalonians tells us that dead in Christ will rise first.
doesnt that mean no one has risen yet?
so if Mary hasnt risen yet then shes dead….how can she pray for you if she is dead? how can the saints pray for you if they are dead?April 12, 2009 at 3:18 am #9274
About Catholics TeamKeymasterApril 12, 2009 at 4:01 am #9276
AnonymousApril 13, 2009 at 4:07 am #9279
Anonymous"Deeown":qdj0qx1k wrote:but those only answer why we pray to mary they dont say whether MAry can pray for us since shes dead[/quote:qdj0qx1k]
You have asked a compound question, and have made what I think is a error in the interpretation of the dead in Christ. One’s body will be raised from the Grave on the last day and re-united with one’s soul, which remains very much alive, and aware.
Each person “receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven — through purification or immediately, — or immediate and everlasting damnation.” [The Catechism of the Catholic Church, revised edition, paragraph 1022]. The footnotes of this refer us to New Testament passages, which support the teaching:
[quote:qdj0qx1k]Lk16:22-26 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.[/quote:qdj0qx1k]
[i:qdj0qx1k]Here we see not only was the rich man judged and sent to Hell, but he cried out to Father Abraham, who had also died, if he was in a sleep that rendered one unconscious, neither could he call out to Abraham, nor could Abraham respond. [/i:qdj0qx1k]
[quote:qdj0qx1k]Lk 23:42-43; 42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/quote:qdj0qx1k]
I’m using the KJV, as it is the most common translation used by English Speaking Protestants. Here the translation says that Jesus promised that “Today” the man would be with Jesus in Paradise, not some point in the future.
[quote:qdj0qx1k]Phil 1:20-23; 20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. 21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:[/quote:qdj0qx1k]
[i:qdj0qx1k]St. Paul tells us that after this life we are better off because there we are to be with Christ. If we go into unconsciousness, and have to wait we are not “with Christ.” but in a state of Limbo.[/i:qdj0qx1k]
[quote:qdj0qx1k]Heb 9:27-28, 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.[/quote:qdj0qx1k]
[i:qdj0qx1k]No mention of waiting for the soul to be judged here, it states that we die and we are judged.[/i:qdj0qx1k]
[quote:qdj0qx1k]2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.[/quote:qdj0qx1k]
Unless the Bible lied to us, Elijah was taken into heaven. If he was taken there, are we to believe that he is the only one who has been taken to heaven, we know that Jesus ascended into heaven, body and soul. We also see at the Transfiguration, Jesus standing with Elijah and Moses, Matthew 17:1-9; Mark 9:2-8; Luke 9:28-36. If the proposition that you make that the dead are asleep, and unable to hear us, they too would not have been able to appear with Jesus. Jesus does not make spiritual laws and then just break them.
[quote:qdj0qx1k]Revelation 6:9-12 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.[/quote:qdj0qx1k]
[i:qdj0qx1k]If these souls of those slain for the word of God where sleeping in the manner that the Adventist Sects teach, how could they know that those who dwell on earth had not been judged?[/i:qdj0qx1k]
There are more verses that I can produce that contradict your interpretations, but I think there are enough here to consider for the time being.
One of the major problems of the New Sects that have arisen since the days of Martin Luther, and John Calvin is the selective interpretation of “Proof Texts” These individual texts taken out of context with the Bible as a whole, lead to false and novel teachings. For 1500 years the Church taught the same doctrine. for almost 1100 years the Church was united East and West. In the past 200-250 years thousands of sects have arisen, each interpreting the Bible sometimes just based on one or two verses of the Bible which they use to justify their setting up a new body of teachings that contradict what has been taught previously.
Consider these points.
Jesus prayed that we would all be one.
He warned us against those with itching ears, who wanted to hear new teachings.
Jesus promised that He would remain with His Church until the end of time.
Now either we can follow what Jesus said, and not split into thousands of Churches, each teaching what they want, and isolating scripture, rejecting what the Apostles and the Early Church taught. Ignore History, and invent our own new sects. Or we can each decide what we think is correct and ignore what has always been taught.
Either Jesus continued to be with His Church, and the Holy Ghost has guided the Church, not allowing it to fall into error, even if individuals in the Church have failed in their personal lives, or; throughout the ages, Jesus has abandoned His Church, and new ones have been “re-established” fallen into error, and then newer ones have been “re-established” and later fallen into error so a new Church has to be founded by another man (or in the Case of the SDA, Christian Science, and a few others, woman) until someone who knows better comes along.April 13, 2009 at 4:27 am #9280
Anonymous"LARobert":94oylogx wrote:He warned us against those with itching ears, who wanted to hear new teachings.[/quote:94oylogx]
I don’t mean to be rude, but does this mean that one couldn’t hear what others had to say about other theological doctrines? Or does this mean anything contrary to what the Church teaches?April 13, 2009 at 6:55 am #9282
[quote:2mk30jbb]Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;[/quote:2mk30jbb]
I do have to correct myself, it was St. Paul, who was writing to St. Timothy, (2 Timothy 4: 2-3)
Read the text above, and tell me what it says to you? If St. Paul and St. Timothy are both members of the only Church that existed at the time, what was it he was talking about? He tells us to exort with all longsuffering and doctrine. What doctrine was he speaking of? The doctrine that was delivered to the Church by Christ, and preserved by that Church. A Church which Christ had comissioned to preach the Good News to the ends of the earth. Or any new doctrine that someone decided on their own over time to develop, apart from that Church?April 13, 2009 at 7:22 am #9284
I apologize for misinterpreting your quote LARobert. It stinks to have Internet on a portable device with tiny buttons and a little screen ” title=”Razz” />April 13, 2009 at 3:02 pm #9285
We are all learning, I continue to learn, and hope for the day when God will reveal Himself fully in heaven. You can see evidence of my fallibility by having to correct myself, in giving the correct quote, but attributing it to Jesus, rather than St. Paul. I learn every day. I also think that no-one here should just simply accept what I have said, just because I said it. Yes I have spent the past 28 years “searching the Scriptures” and reading Catholic and non-Catholic writers, but I myself am no authority. I too am seeking out the truth.
What I have learned over more than a quarter century is some of the history and development of not simply Catholic history and Dogma, but also the development of Protestant sects, Ancient and Modern Judaism. I don’t claim to know it all, but I do research out from sources that are as impartial as I can find. Yes I do trust that Jesus founded a Church with one truth, which He taught to His Apostles. I believe that knowing the frailty of men, He also knew the need to sustain the Church in more than just a mortal way, depending solely on those men, but by remaining with us and sending the Holy Spirit to guide that Church.
I believe that Jesus in founding the Church gave authority to the Apostles, by laying on hands, and breathing on them. Both signs in Judaism of the passing on of a blessing or authority. That the Apostles who given authority by Jesus, established authorities in the Church of Presbyters and Deacons, who shared in the authority, and responsibilities of guiding the Church by Jesus’ authority.
When it comes to learning the Scriptures, we have the story in the Acts of the Apostles of the Ethiopian Eunuch,
[quote:2elz69vo]26Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road the desert road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[a]eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet. 29The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.” 30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. 31″[i:2elz69vo]How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” [/i:2elz69vo]So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.[/quote:2elz69vo]
Here we see St. Philip, who had been given authority, and who learned at the feet of, Jesus himself. Our Lord had explained the Bible (at that time only the Old Testament existed, as the New Testament had not been written) to Philip, who explained the what he had been taught, and was commissioned to teach. He did not simply invent teachings, but he “Traditio” or handed down the teachings of Jesus. I am convinced that the evidence is that the Catholic Church still teaches what Jesus taught, and that later men, most of whom where very sincere decided for themselves that the scriptures taught something different from what was always taught.
Like the Ethiopian, I’m willing to look and see what others teach, I’m willing to compair that teaching to what the Apostles taught. However in this case, we have a doctrine created around 150 years ago, which I have already looked at and compaired to both Scripture and what was taught before the Adventists started teaching it. If some new and compelling information was brought forward, I’d be willing to consider it, but thus far none has been. The assertions are the same ones that I have already considered, compaired and prayed about. I’ve found that the teachings of the Millerites, and other descendents of this doctrine to be a distortion of the truth.December 17, 2009 at 6:03 pm #9544
I know this is a silly question, but what happened to Mary when she died?December 17, 2009 at 8:07 pm #9545
According to Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and a few other groups beliefs, at the end of her life on earth, God Assumed Mary’s body and soul into heaven. There is no definitive statement by any of these bodies that she died, or did not die before this happened.December 17, 2009 at 8:30 pm #9546
I see. Thank you once again ” title=”Smile” /> What specifically do the Roman Catholics believe? Do they think she died then was risen with body and soul, or was alive and assended into Heaven?
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