The Final Purification

Home Forums All Things Catholic The Final Purification

This topic contains 16 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  weather 8 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 17 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1603

    weather
    Member

    The Final Purification, or Purgatory

    All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

    The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. [color=blue:6jeho0w5]the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[/color:6jeho0w5]
    As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

    [color=blue:6jeho0w5]This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them[/color:6jeho0w5], above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

    Let us help and commemorate them. [color=blue:6jeho0w5]If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.[/color:6jeho0w5]
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM

    #7999

    Ron K
    Member

    Mr. Weathers says:

    [quote:3zgkd9j0]The Final Purification, or Purgatory

    All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. [/quote:3zgkd9j0]
    Sorry Mr. Weathers but as Scriptures tell us in Hebrews 9:27 after death then comes judgment. If you didn’t realize that Jesus took care of sins at Calvary before you die, there won’t be any purification for you -ever!!!

    [quote:3zgkd9j0]The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [/quote:3zgkd9j0]
    More evidence that the Church isn’t the Catholic Church!
    [quote:3zgkd9j0]
    The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: [/quote:3zgkd9j0]
    No sir, we are saved, cleaned by His shed blood, not by fire (Hebrews 9:22)
    [quote:3zgkd9j0]
    As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [/quote:3zgkd9j0]
    Or simply they never will be forgiven – you show how dangerous it is to trust in speculation instead of God’s word

    [quote:3zgkd9j0]This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” [/quote:3zgkd9j0]
    Maccabeus did a historical act, not an establishment of doctrine and this is another reason why it isn’t part of Scriptures
    [quote:3zgkd9j0]
    From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: [/quote:3zgkd9j0]
    As I previously stated this is just more proof why Roman Catholicism is not Christ’s church. Besides honoring the memory of the dead is a whole lot different then to pray to or for them
    [quote:3zgkd9j0]
    Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them. [/quote:3zgkd9j0]
    Job was praying for the living children and Scriptures don’t say that was how any of them were actually purified – more speculations? As for praying to or for any who died, WHY? We are told that we can go right to Jesus (Hebrewws 4:16)

    #8059

    weather
    Member

    Although the word “purgatory” is not mentioned in the Bible, the reality of purgatory is clearly mentioned there. The words “Trinity” and “incarnation” and “Bible” are not mentioned in the Bible, but these realities are revealed there. Jesus speaks of sins to be forgiven in the life to come (Matthew 12:23). Saint Paul speaks of those saved in the next life “through fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15). Saint Peter speaks of the “spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3:18-20) and of the Gospel “preached to the dead” (1 Peter 4:6). The Bible explicitly tells us to pray for the dead (2 Maccabees 12:44-46). Besides being found in Sacred Tradition, which explicitly affirms the existence of purgatory, it is clearly that the doctrine of it existence is also found in Sacred Scripture.

    2 Maccabees 12:43-46
    43
    He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
    44
    for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
    45
    But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
    46
    Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

    Matthew 12:32
    32
    And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    [b:2j7zc6zk]Would it be a sin for a Catholic not to believe in the existence of purgatory[/b:2j7zc6zk]?

    Yes, it would be a mortal sin of heresy for such a Catholic. Read about purgatory in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (numbers 1030-1032). Read about heresy in the same book (number 2089).

    #8060

    Ron K
    Member

    Duh? Hello Mr. Weathers,

    So is this your decision after being told thst one gets washed by the Blood of Jesus shed at Calvary to reject what He did so that you can believe in a Purgatory?

    THis definitely would be considered as Colossians 2:8 says:[color=red:1pzx9fx0] Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.[/color:1pzx9fx0]

    as well as your stand on mortal sins :
    [quote:1pzx9fx0]Would it be a sin for a Catholic not to believe in the existence of purgatory?

    Yes, it would be a mortal sin of heresy for such a Catholic. Read about purgatory in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (numbers 1030-1032). Read about heresy in the same book (number 2089).[/quote:1pzx9fx0]

    I feel sorry for you and all the rest of you guys that decide to remain Catholic!

    #8062

    weather
    Member

    Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 ‚Äì Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

    Matt. 5:48 – Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

    Matt. 12:32 ‚Äì Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

    Luke 12:47-48 – when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

    Luke 16:19-31 – in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

    1 Cor. 15:29-30 – Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

    Phil. 2:10 – every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

    2 Tim. 1:16-18 – Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.<img src=” title=”Cool” />. Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

    Heb. 12:14 – without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

    Heb. 12:23 – the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

    1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 – Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

    Rev. 21:4 – God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

    Rev. 21:27 – nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

    Luke 23:43 ‚Äì many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life ‚Äì perhaps by a bloody and repentant death ‚Äì could be ready for admission in to heaven).

    Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 – here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

    Baruch 3:4 – Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

    Zech. 9:11 – God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

    2 Macc. 12:43-45 – the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

    #8064

    LARobert
    Participant

    Weather:

    Your points are well taken by anyone who is willing to look at the Sacred Scriptures in both the context that with God as their author they are true, be the text a literal statement, ie “Thou Shalt not [i:ve720fqa][b:ve720fqa]Murder[/b:ve720fqa][/i:ve720fqa]” usually mistranslated in english from the hebrew to “Thou Shalt not [i:ve720fqa][b:ve720fqa]Kill[/b:ve720fqa][/i:ve720fqa]” or allegorical as is the case where our Lord tells the woman at the well of the water that when one drinks of it they will never thirst, (obvious to someone who as any wit about them that he was speaking of a spiritual water)

    One of the problem with Fundies, (no slight on Protestants, as I know Catholics who take a literal view of a seven 24 hour literal days of creation view *) is that they see anyone who does not take every word as literal, and anything not covered (ie the existance of Cro-Magnon Man, or the playful little dinos) as either a fable, or as an overt athiest concept. Whereas when one studies the Sacred Scriptures from a point of view of absolute faith that God breathed into the writers His inspiration (Spiros = to breath) accepting that some of the tales are allegories and are written not to convey a scientific explination of creation or of every detail of what occured, but the spiritual concept behind the story. Combine that with an ignorance of the tounge (at the time) and the culture to which one is speaking from, literary styles, and the fact that not only was there no punctuation, but in hebrew at the time no vowels (jots and tittles where not universally used, nor do they always convey a clear meaning) but there was no such thing as upper and lower case, nor was there any separation between words. Nope many a Fundie takes the modern (or 17th century) vernacular text they have and tries to interpret the Scriptures devoid of historical and cultural context, forgetting that it was not written in english, spanish or french, nor was it written in their own time and culture.

    An aside, for those who use the KJV as their only acceptable Bible, as if it floated down from heaven. 1. The original KJV approved by King James, (how does a king of England who even protesant historians and his contemporaries link to many homosexual lovers is empowered to approve a translation of the Bible is another issue all togeather) but the original edition had the Book of Maccabies and all the other books later tossed out by Cranmer. 2. Catholic editions of the Bible, including the Duoay Version (which predated the KJV) and other Greek and Latin Catholic editions where used as sources since the Tyndale and other Protestant translations where held to be corrupt translations.

    On the whole the KJV is in it’s original and entire (pre-cranmerian) edition is not all that bad. Even with some of the revisions made to it to make it more Protestant, and to eject the books that had always been accepted as part of the Canon, it is a fairly good translation, as translations go. The poetry is good, after all Shakespere was one of the translators.

    Next time you have a KJV, look up Psalm 46 just for fun. Psalm 46 is not unknown to cipher enthusiasts. This is the famous Psalm where
    Shakespeare slipped in his name in cypher. You see, the 46th word from the beginning is “Shake”, and the 46th word from the end (not counting the final “Selah”) is “Speare”. The story goes that Shakespeare was 46 years old when he translated the Psalm, and jumbled the words to get his name in the Bible, fun factoid that does not change the fact that the Psalm is a poetical praise of God.

    *I know YKW will probably have another kinipshin, but the Catholic Church holds as De Fide, that one does not have to hold to a literal seven 24 hour day creation, what it does hold is that you must believe that however the world came into being, it was made out of nothing and by the Power and Will of God.

    #8094

    weather
    Member

    Q. What is mortal sin?
    A. And great offence against the love of God; and is so called because it kills the soul, and robs it of the spiritual life of grace.
    Q. What is venial sin?
    A. A small, and very pardonable offence against God, or our neighbour.
    Q. How prove you that some sins are mortal?
    A. First, out of Rom. vi. 23. “For the wages of sin is death.” And ver. xxi. “What fruit therefore had you then in these things, for which ye are now ashamed, for the end of them is death?”
    Secondly, out of Wis. xvi. 14. “For man by malice, killeth his own soul.” And out of Ezek. xviii. 4. “The soul that sinneth, the same shall die.”
    Q. How prove you that some sins are venial?
    A. First, out of 1 John i. 8, where speaking of such as walk in the light, and are cleansed from all mortal sin by the blood of Christ, he adds, “if we stay we have no sin, we seduce ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
    Secondly, “In many things we all offend,” James iii 2. And in Prov. xxiv. 16. “The just man falleth seven times.” Not mortally, for then he were no longer just, therefore venially.
    Thirdly, out of Matt. xii. 36. “But I say unto you, every idle word which men shall speak, they shall render an account for it at the day of judgment.” Now God forbid every idle word should be a mortal sin.
    Q. What are the effects of venial sin?
    A. It doth not rob the soul of life, as mortal sin doth, but only weakeneth the fervour of charity, and by degrees disposeth unto mortal.
    Q. Why are we bound to shun not only mortal, but venial sins?
    A. Because “he that contemneth small things, shall fall by little and little.” Eccles. xix. 1.
    Q. What other proof have you?
    A. Because “no polluted thing shall enter into the heavenly Jerusalem.” Apoc. xxi. 27, be it polluted with mortal, or venial sin.
    Q. How shall we be able to know when any sin is mortal, and when but venial?
    A. Because to any mortal sin it is required, both that it be deliberate, and perfectly voluntary; and that it be a matter of weight against the law of God; one or both of which conditions are always wanting in a venial sin.
    Q. How is mortal sin remitted?
    A. By hearty penance and contrition.
    Q. How is venial sin remitted?
    A. By all the sacraments, by holy water, devout prayer, alms-deeds, and the like good works.
    Q. Whither go such as die in venial sin, or not having fully satisfied for the temporal punishments due to their mortal sins which are forgiven them?
    A. To purgatory till they have made full satisfaction for them, and then to heaven.
    Q. How prove you there is a purgatory, or a place of punishment, where souls are purged after death?
    Q. Out of 1 Pet. iii. 10. “Christ being dead for our sins, came in spirit, and preached to them also that were in prison, who had been incredulous in the days of Noah, when the Ark was building.”
    Q. What other proof have you?
    A. Out of 1 Cor. iii. 13. “The work of every man shall be manifest, for the day of our Lord will declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the work of every one of what kind it is, the fire shall try; If a man’s work abides,” (as theirs doth who deserve no purgatory) he shall suffer loss, but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”
    Q. What besides?
    A. Out of Matt. v. 25. “Be thou at agreement with thy adversary betimes whilst thou art in the way with him (that is in this life) lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison (Purgatory): Amen, I say unto thee, thou shalt not go out from thence, till thou pay the last farthing.”
    Q. What other yet?
    A. Out of Matt. xii. 32. “Some sins shall neither be forgiven in this world, nor in the world to come.” Therefore there is a place of purging and pardoning sins after this life.
    http://www.catecheticsonline.com/Catechetical_1649.php

    #8097

    Ron K
    Member

    So Mr. Weathers, you said

    [quote:182490n6]and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God[/quote:182490n6]

    So are you then suggesting that God isn’t a God of grace? (Not that it matters, since you rejected the finished work of Christ crucified, as in below:)

    [quote:182490n6]We are only made perfect through purification,[/quote:182490n6]

    [quote:182490n6] Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death,[/quote:182490n6]
    nothing like jumping to conclusions with your answers.

    [quote:182490n6]So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory. [/quote:182490n6]
    Yet other sources claim purgatory is simply a state of mind – The Ruch man is in Abraham’s bossom – emptied after Jesus resurrection (He had to be the first to resurrect and no longer needed)

    [quote:182490n6]1 Cor. 15:29-30 – Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead,[/quote:182490n6] Are you going to join the Mormons soon too? The chapter is about the Cor. people doing that but to show that obviously they believed in life after death not to validate anything else!

    [quote:182490n6]which also shows specific prayers for the dead,[/quote:182490n6]
    Which is one reason why Maccabees is not Biblical

    everything here is built upon speculation, or theories with no solid evidence, of which I won’t continue except with Revelation 21:27 – no sin enters Heaven – that is true because those perfected were the ones of which had been cleaned by trusting in the shed blood of Christ – for as Hebrews 9:22 states – we are cleaned by blood – witihout the sheding of blood there is no forgiveness – so much for “purgatory”

    #8099

    weather
    Member

    [color=red:2jupv548]Yet other sources claim purgatory is simply a state of mind – The Ruch man is in Abraham’s bossom – emptied after Jesus resurrection (He had to be the first to resurrect and no longer needed) [/color:2jupv548]

    [color=blue:2jupv548]So isn’t heaven,hell and purgatory a state of mind?[/color:2jupv548]

    #8101

    Ron K
    Member

    So isn’t heaven,hell and purgatory a state of mind?
    _________________

    No! Heaven and Hell are very real places
    purgatory is not!

    #8103

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    Are they physical places or states of being?

    #8104

    Ron K
    Member

    I’ll tell you when I get to Heaven and I don’t care about the other place, I don’t figure on going there so what does it matter?

    (Maybe different demensions, whatever, they will be real which ever place one ends up in)

    #8106

    Hello!
    I left the Church at 14 and came back about 30 years later. I experienced the broad spectrum of Protestantism: I attended a Pentecostal college, served as a United Methodist youth pastor, pursued Reformation theology and became an Anglican priest.

    One thing I came to recognize is that Protestantism is not a united front. The theological differences from Baptists to Lutheranism are huge. Some Baptists will say a prayer and believe that will do it no matter how you live afterward while Methodists will preach perfectionism.

    While allot of Scriptural quotes are thrown at Purgatory it is my opinion that there is an ignorance of the Bible as a whole. While there is a proclamation of Sola Scriptura I think most of the time the Bible is read selectively if at times at all. In dealing with most Baptists (and Evangelicals) you will notice that they NEVER quote the words of Jesus in this discussion.

    I am convinced that most Baptists and Evangelicals have never even thought of dealing with the personal sin of a Christian and the judgment seat of Christ after death.

    I am confident that those against purgatory have not dealt with this Scripture ( and probably doesn’t even know it is in the Bible):

    2 Corinthians 5:9-11:

    9 Therefore we make it our aim whether present or absent, to be wellpleasing to Him.

    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE, GOOD OR BAD.

    11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men…
    Paul realized that we are saved by grace but we will be held accountable with what we do with that grace.

    After death there will be the judgment seat of Christ, and purgatory is part of that judgment. We have been bought with a price and Christ will not let us go, but He will not let unrepentant sin go. Just as we are saved by His finished work, He still chastises us Heb. 12:5-7.

    “that each one may receive the things done in the body, ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE, GOOD OR BAD.”

    We can deal with not forgiving now or before His judgment seat, the same with pride, idolatry, and lust. Just like you don’t get a free ticket from chastisement now, you won’t then.

    “I feel sorry for you and all the rest of you guys that decide to remain Catholic”

    RON K by your comments and the spirit evident in them the only thing that I realize is that I am glad I’m not like you.

    You need to stop getting your information from anti Catholic literature (Loraine Beottner, John Ankerberg, etc.) and read Catholic resources to get the right “thing”, and quite frankly you need to stop being a hater.
    I have been where you are now. I found that I needed to open my heart to the love of Christ and to love Him. When we love Christ we must love our brother. It is much better to be one that loves than hates.

    #8109

    Ron K
    Member

    Hello Saint James

    You said a few remarks that needs Biblical adjuxtments:

    [quote:2k8pletz]I left the Church at 14 and came back about 30 years later. I experienced the broad spectrum of Protestantism: I attended a Pentecostal college, served as a United Methodist youth pastor, pursued Reformation theology and became an Anglican priest.

    One thing I came to recognize is that Protestantism is not a united front. The theological differences from Baptists to Lutheranism are huge. Some Baptists will say a prayer and believe that will do it no matter how you live afterward while Methodists will preach perfectionism.

    While allot of Scriptural quotes are thrown at Purgatory it is my opinion that there is an ignorance of the Bible as a whole. While there is a proclamation of Sola Scriptura I think most of the time the Bible is read selectively if at times at all. In dealing with most Baptists (and Evangelicals) you will notice that they NEVER quote the words of Jesus in this discussion. [/quote:2k8pletz]
    You are correct in these statements up to a point. Protestants include many beliefs and are diffeerent in many ways but don’t just classify them all as if they are one religion. All religions are simply men’s attempts to reach God including Catholicism, where as Chistianity is God”s attempt to
    reach man. WE are warned about deceptions and if we use God’s Book to discern ALL beliefs, then we’ll knkow the truth.
    [quote:2k8pletz]
    I am convinced that most Baptists and Evangelicals have never even thought of dealing with the personal sin of a Christian and the judgment seat of Christ after death.

    I am confident that those against purgatory have not dealt with this Scripture ( and probably doesn’t even know it is in the Bible): [/quote:2k8pletz]
    But it is NOT in the Bible!

    [quote:2k8pletz]2 Corinthians 5:9-11:

    9 Therefore we make it our aim whether present or absent, to be wellpleasing to Him.

    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE, GOOD OR BAD.

    11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men…
    Paul realized that we are saved by grace but we will be held accountable with what we do with that grace. [/quote:2k8pletz]
    Yes according to what we’ve done – easily meaning did we live according to God’s way or man’s way – nothing about Purgatory there!
    [quote:2k8pletz]
    After death there will be the judgment seat of Christ, and purgatory is part of that judgment. We have been bought with a price and Christ will not let us go, but He will not let unrepentant sin go. Just as we are saved by His finished work, He still chastises us Heb. 12:5-7. [/quote:2k8pletz]
    If we’ve een bought with a price, then we’ve been Cleaned by His blood just as this verse says: I JN 1:7 – [color=red:2k8pletz]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, [u:2k8pletz][b:2k8pletz]and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin[/b:2k8pletz][/u:2k8pletz]. No need for further cleaning! But if you don’t believe that then how do you figure that you are His child?[/color:2k8pletz]

    [quote:2k8pletz]”that each one may receive the things done in the body, ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE, GOOD OR BAD.” [/quote:2k8pletz]
    See above

    [quote:2k8pletz]We can deal with not forgiving now or before His judgment seat, the same with pride, idolatry, and lust. Just like you don’t get a free ticket from chastisement now, you won’t then. [/quote:2k8pletz]
    But a gift from God is free since it is built upon His love for us and that is why we call it grace. If it isn’t free and we’d have to work for it then it wouldn’t be a gospel of grace.
    [quote:2k8pletz]
    “I feel sorry for you and all the rest of you guys that decide to remain Catholic”

    RON K by your comments and the spirit evident in them the only thing that I realize is that I am glad I’m not like you. [/quote:2k8pletz]
    Everyone has the right to their own beliefs, but as you said,( that each one may receive the things done in the body, ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE, GOOD OR BAD.”)

    [quote:2k8pletz]You need to stop getting your information from anti Catholic literature (Loraine Beottner, John Ankerberg, etc.) and read Catholic resources to get the right “thing”, and quite frankly you need to stop being a hater. [/quote:2k8pletz]
    Thanks but no thanks, what I need as well as you is top follow God according to His word and Catholicism twists it to a complete non-gospel that saves no one. Even the love chapter tells us (1 Cor. 13:6) – [u:2k8pletz][color=red:2k8pletz][b:2k8pletz]6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth[/b:2k8pletz][/color:2k8pletz][/u:2k8pletz].

    [quote:2k8pletz]I have been where you are now. I found that I needed to open my heart to the love of Christ and to love Him. When we love Christ we must love our brother. It is much better to be one that loves than hates. [/quote:2k8pletz]
    But you aren’t a brother until you become a believer!

    #8111

    LARobert
    Participant

    St. James:

    You and I (and one day Ron when he returns to the bosom of Christ in His Church) could I’m sure enjoy a nice meal and glass of (in my case diet coke) while discussing our adventures through Protestant land. It is quite funny, (read sad) how Protestants of various shades of the rainbow state that they are bringing you the Bible alone, yet it is usually the Bible (select proof verses) combined with Hislop and friends and their own Minister or Pastor, who’s words are taken quite literally without any fact checking in a manner that would make the Council fathers who settled the debate on Papal Infaillibility with it’s severe limits blush. I remember hearing, “Well Pastor X said this, and he is a Spirit Driven Man of God” or “Rev. Y was moved by the Spirit and told us Gobbelty Gook was laid on his heart and we are to abandon what everyone has always believed because the Jesuits polluted the understanding of the Text and it really after almost 2000 years of believing one way means something else.”

    I’ve mentioned before on the Forum that I go to a couple of Protestant book stores in town, one Arminian, the other Calvanist. All of them claim the invisible Church of all True Bible believers. I hear them start a conversation of Hello Brother, what you looking for here. The conversation gets going and it’s Praise the Lord this, and the Lord inspired me that this text means that and they are happy as can be until the Lord inspired one in a different way and then they start telling each other how hot their place in hell will be. As for Bible alone, the bookstores are packed with books from Dispensationalism to Millenialism, Calvin to Luther, and Brummer to boot. Each man his own Pope, contradicting the next because God inspired him to the individual interpretation. Then you have the Bible Dictionaries and Commentaries, from Smith or Young to Nelson and MaGee, each contradicting one another and all of them written by “good men of the Gospel” who “God has inspired” to write contradicting information. So along with the sideshow I have a couple of sources for used Catholic books at a bargain basement price, as these men who treat Hislop and Foxe as if they where inspired works, and will use them without citation so (another famous trick of their apologists is to not cite where something is from so they 1. seem to be informed and educated. 2. Cannot have facts checked as the sources of information are filled with bogus misquotes and non-referenced matter. But all in all these people (most who are sincere, some who are just out to pay the house note knowing that there is a market for spurious anti-Catholic rhetoric that will either fill their collection baskets or sell their books) make me laugh by trying to tell us they are Bible only, when in fact they do give more credence to their library of Anti-Catholic Authors with select Bible verses than to the message of the Bible.

    Well as we all know it is a big Jesuit Conspiracy, just ask Alberto of Chick Comics, (another story of deception for another time.)

    #8119

    RonK

    Remember- I did spend 30 years in Protestantism. I did ask Jesus to come into my heart. I was baptized (or should I say rebaptized . Is that a word?) and actually became a member of a Baptist church (though I still shake my head wondering how that happened).

    Please also remember the words of Jesus (RonK I think you are a Baptist, and in my experience Baptists hardly read the Gospels, I mean the whole of the 4 books) “judge not that you be not judged” and “love your enemies”.

    And if you are a Baptist: remember once saved always saved.

    In your blind hatred of Catholics (and you are a hater) you sin against the Christ you seem to profess.

    LARobert,

    A nice meal and a great dessert. Also, thanks for sharing some good words.

    My last stop was a Baptist church (the pastor was a friend of mine) and it seems to me that Baptist belief borders on Gnosticism.

    If you check the doctrinal statement of any Baptist church it will start with the Bible. We know that the Apostles Creed starts with the Father and the Son. It as if to the Baptist the Most Holy Trinity is real because the Bible says so as the foundation of the truth, instead of the correct thinking that the Bible is real because God says it’s real through Christ’s church.
    Simply put: your starting point is your god.

    It seems that Baptists almost worship the Bible. It’s the extreme of “faith alone” where the Bible holds the “hidden knowledge”. That’s the reason they have problems with miracles, healing, and the sacraments. It’s with anything that has to do with physical world or matter:spirit good, matter bad.

    Oh by the way: those chick comics are inspired aren’t they?

    #8494

    weather
    Member

    [quote:2rv5ekpb]I’ll tell you when I get to Heaven and I don’t care about the other place, I don’t figure on going there so what does it matter?

    (Maybe different demensions, whatever, they will be real which ever place one ends up in)[/quote:2rv5ekpb]

    In Matthew 12:32 Jesus says, “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Why does Jesus talk about forgiveness after death?
    Jesus speaks of purgatory in Matthew 18:23-35. While speaking on forgiveness He says: “The kingdom of heaven may be likened to…” and then He tells a story about a king who forgave a servant’s large debt. That same servant refused to forgive a much smaller amount of a fellow servant. The king then threw the first servant into prison “until he should pay back the whole debt.” Jesus then says, “So will my Heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.” What prison is there in the kingdom of heaven where you might remain until your debt is satisfied ‚Äì purgatory maybe?
    Paul also spoke of purgatory in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. He says in part, “The work of each will come to light, for the day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss, the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”
    Those detained in Purgatory can be aided by the prayers of the faithful. Inscriptions in the catacombs bear witness to this ancient Church teaching. One reads, “Intercession has been made for the soul of the dear one departed and God has heard the prayer, and the soul has passed into a place of light and refreshment.” Another one reads, “In your prayers remember us who have gone before you.”
    Support is also found in the writings of Tertullian (200AD), who declares that prayers for the dead are an apostolic ordinance. Clement of Alexandria (150-216 AD) writes about a place after death where “expiation and purification” occur before heaven is attained. Other Church Fathers agree, such as Origen (185-254 AD), Cyprian (200-258 AD), Jerome (342-420 AD), Ambrose (340-397 AD), Augustine (354-430 AD), and many others.
    The tradition of the Jews is found in 2 Maccabees 12:42-46: “Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out… He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice;if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death;Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.”
    Numbers 20:12 – Moses and Aaron, though forgiven, are still punished 2 Samuel 12:13-14 – David, though forgiven, is still punished 1 John 5:16-17 – There is sin that is not deadly Revelation 21:27 – Nothing unclean shall enter heaven Hebrews 12:23 – All in heaven have been made perfect Matthew 12:36 – “On judgment day men will account for every careless word they utter” Matthew 18:23-35 – In the kingdom of heaven you will remain in prison until your debt is paid 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 – Fire will test each ones work. He will be saved but only as through fire Luke 12:41-48 – There are different degrees of punishment after death 2 Maccabees 12:42-45 – He prayed for the dead that they might be freed from their sin 2 Timothy 1:16-18 – Paul prays for his dead friend Onesiphorus

    StayCatholic.com

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 17 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.