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October 5, 2006 at 7:15 pm #7042AnonymousInactive
[quote:11c7nsz3]Ron apparently has still not learned what I have mentioned several times: purgatory is an application of the merits of Christ’s sacrifice.
He refuses to acknowledge this because his entire problem with purgatory rests on incorrect soteriology stemming from poor exegesis of numerous Bible passages.[/quote:11c7nsz3]
[color=darkred:11c7nsz3]Not to mention a false premise to begin with, that is Sola Scriptura.[/color:11c7nsz3]October 5, 2006 at 7:50 pm #7043
[quote:3my8xh77][color=darkred:3my8xh77]Not to mention a false premise to begin with, that is Sola Scriptura.[/color:3my8xh77][/quote:3my8xh77]
[b:3my8xh77]Which if anyone has any plans on discussing this topic please start a new thread and do not discuss it here.[/b:3my8xh77]October 7, 2006 at 7:45 pm #7060AnonymousInactive
Ron apparently has still not learned what I have mentioned several times: purgatory is an application of the merits of Christ’s sacrifice.
He refuses to acknowledge this because his entire problem with purgatory rests on incorrect soteriology stemming from poor exegesis of numerous Bible passages.[/quote:29r47qxj]
Please explain where or how you came up with this view?October 7, 2006 at 8:06 pm #7061
Why did you make a new account?October 7, 2006 at 8:11 pm #7063AnonymousInactive
I switched e-mail address. So I wanted to stay active here and thought it was the best way to do itOctober 7, 2006 at 9:59 pm #7064
Oh, I see. All you had to do was update your e-mail address in your profile[/url:1mn40e82] and everything would have remained the same. ” title=”Smile” />
If you’d like I can arrange that for you and just put your new posts under your old account.October 7, 2006 at 11:26 pm #7066AnonymousInactive
The Roman Catholic church dogma only states that:
Purgatory exists for temporary purging of sin.
Punishment and prayers by people on earth will help those in Purgatory.
On 1999-JUL-28, Pope John Paul II described Hell to be “More than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.” By extension, Purgatory may be more of a state of being than an actual place.
There is no official dogma about the precise nature of the punishment(s) in Purgatory. However, various Church authorities have taught that the inhabitants in Purgatory are systematically tortured with fire. Orthodox churches also believe that Purgatory exists; however they do not specify a method by which pain is inflicted. 1
Passages in the Bible describe many additional forms of torture used on the inhabitants of Hell for all eternity without hope of mercy or relief: worms, unbearable heat, unbearable thirst, etc. However, St. Thomas Aquinas taught that only one form of torture is used in Purgatory “to cleanse us from the remains of sin…the pain of fire only is ascribed to Purgatory.” 2
Some have puzzled whether Hell and Purgatory are actually in the same location. St. Thomas Aquinas quotes Gregory the Great as quoting St. Augustine who wrote: “Even as in the same fire gold glistens and straw smokes, so in the same fire the sinner burns and the elect is cleansed.” St. Augustine apparently believed that the same fire that tortures the sinful in Hell also is used to purify the saved in Purgatory. Some believe that this implies that Purgatory and Hell are either adjacent or in the same location. Aquinas wrote that there are probably two Purgatory locations: one is inside the earth and is close hell so that they can share the same fire. The other location is above the earth, between us and God. 2 Aquinas appears to be wrong: Space exploration has not yet uncovered any sign of Purgatory above the earth. Deep holes drilled into the earth have not discovered Purgatory either, although there have been some interesting Christian urban legends to the contrary.
Some have inquired whether the pain that people experience in Purgatory is greater than the pain that we experience in life. Some reasoned that it is not greater because punishment is a result of sin; since we do not accumulate more sins in Purgatory, then the punishment will not be greater than that which we have been used to experiencing. But St. Thomas Aquinas quotes St. Augustine as saying that “This fire of Purgatory will be more severe than any pain that can be felt, seen or conceived in this world.” Aquinas agrees with St. Augustine. There will be two types of pain in Purgatory. They feel a keen sense of loss because they will not be in the presence of God while they remain in Purgatory. They will also feel the “punishment by corporeal fire.” The former is an overwhelming pain because the souls there will deeply long to be with God. The thermally induced pain would also be severe because it would be inflicted on the soul itself – there are no bodies in Purgatory. “Therefore it follows that the pain of Purgatory, both of loss and of sense, surpasses all the pains of this life.” 3 The Catholic Encyclopedia mentions that St. Bonaventure thought: “that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life.”
Many unofficial beliefs have arisen among individual Catholics: One source quotes Holy Mary as saying that there are many levels in Purgatory. Living Christians can pray on behalf of individuals in Purgatory in order to give the latter temporary relief from pain. Those in the lowest level of Purgatory can only receive respite from their torture through the prayers of the living on NOV-2. The greatest number of souls leave Purgatory on Christmas day. 4
One writer comments:
“Do penance, or you will burn long years in Purgatory, is a fact that there is no getting away from…Which of us does not tremble when he thinks of those who have been burnt to death in a slow fire? What fear would not be ours if we had to face a similar death? Yet their suffering was of relatively short duration. The incomparably fiercer fire of Purgatory, which we may have to face, may last 20, or 50 or 100 years!” 5
Another source lists a Prayer of St. Gertrude the Great, which M. Cardinal Pahiarca allegedly said (at Lisbon, Portugal, on 1936-MAR-4) would release 1000 souls from Purgatory each time it is recited:
“Eternal Father, I offer they the most precious blood of thy Devine [sic] Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, those in my own home and with in my family. Amen.”6
It is not beyond the realm of possibility for a person to repeat this prayer 1000 times a day, and thus release 1 million souls from Purgatory. A three person team, working for an entire year could release over one billion souls!October 8, 2006 at 9:52 am #7067AnonymousInactive
You guys are simply amazing!
The Roman Catholic church dogma only states that:
Purgatory exists for temporary purging of sin.
Punishment and prayers by people on earth will help those in Purgatory. [/quote:2iqjsj14]
But then you say:
Living Christians can pray on behalf of individuals in Purgatory in order to give the latter temporary relief from pain. Those in the lowest level of Purgatory can only receive respite from their torture through the prayers of the living on NOV-2. The greatest number of souls leave Purgatory on Christmas day. 4
One writer comments:
“Do penance, or you will burn long years in Purgatory, is a fact that there is no getting away from…Which of us does not tremble when he thinks of those who have been burnt to death in a slow fire? What fear would not be ours if we had to face a similar death? Yet their suffering was of relatively short duration. The incomparably fiercer fire of Purgatory, which we may have to face, may last 20, or 50 or 100 years!” 5 [/quote:2iqjsj14]
Why is it that your church thinks you can pray someone out of Purgatory
yet you deny Jesus, who is God, the ability to clean us by His shed blood?
Also there is the question of how can fire cleanse anyone when Scriptures say:
And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission (Hebrews 9:22)[/b:2iqjsj14][/color:2iqjsj14]So much for “infallibility!”October 8, 2006 at 6:01 pm #7068AnonymousInactive
What is amazing is your lack of care in reading and comprehending what is presented.
What Weather quoted above is from ReligiousTolerance.org, a third-party website that does not always get its facts straight. A brief glance at its sources reveals Encarta, two particular questions in the Summa Theologica, two personal websites, and an article by a priest. Of these six sources, only 2 have working links.
Notice the glaring omission of any citation from the Bible, Catechism, Church Councils, papal encyclicals, or any other official source of Catholic teaching.
[quote:tp9x1gdu]Why is it that your church thinks you can pray someone out of Purgatory yet you deny Jesus, who is God, the ability to clean us by His shed blood?[/quote:tp9x1gdu]
I have mentioned this before and I will mention it again. Ron, purgatory is an application of the merits of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. At least twice now you have been told this and ignored it.
[quote:tp9x1gdu]Also there is the question of how can fire cleanse anyone[/quote:tp9x1gdu]
Purgatory is not a literal fire. Fire is a metaphor used to explain the cleansing because the audience would be familiar with the use of fire to purge impurities from precious metals. I know for a fact that I have pointed this out to you just a month ago on these boards. You are deliberately ignoring it because it does not fit with your plan of attack on purgatory.
So far you have objected to purgatory as obsoleting Christ’s sacrifice and of cleansing souls by fire. Yet when one looks at the actual teaching of purgatory, one finds neither objection holds water. Ron, you have yet to show the most basic understanding of any Catholic belief. Every time you have issued an objection, you have been shown to hold a misconception of what Catholicism teaches.October 9, 2006 at 3:20 am #7071AnonymousInactive
Are you suggesting that I take Purgatory “out of context”
Would you prefer I say ” If we are not perfected by the time we die, we will be perfected in purgatory. He loves us too much to allow us to be less than what he created us to be. Purgatory is not about an angry God inflicting punishment upon his creatures. It is about a loving Father who “disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness” (Heb. 12:10).”
once again I ask a simple question – how come your church says
1 we must be purifiied
2 we can pray others out
3 but Jesus couldn’t by his work at Calvary as Hebrew 1:3 says ” after having purged us?”October 9, 2006 at 9:00 am #7072AnonymousInactive
1. Because you are probably not now, and most likely will not be at the time of your death, perfectly free from every stain and inclination of sin. If you have even the slightest inkling to commit even the most minor sin, you have not been perfected. That perfection is required to enter heaven. Purgatory is the final fire to remove such impurities.
2. Is the prayer of the righteous man powerful or not? Does God aid those for whom we pray?
3. Hebrews is addressing the redemption of the human race, not the sanctification of each individual (this is clear from context and a plain reading). Once again you are ignoring what I have said in order to try and put purgatory in opposition to the cross. Purgation is accomplished solely through the merits of Christ’s sacrifice. This is now the third time I am stating this.October 9, 2006 at 2:52 pm #7073
I am going to help move this conversation along (switching sides for a moment)…
[quote:2bhvmbw6]1. Because you are probably not now, and most likely will not be at the time of your death, perfectly free from every stain and inclination of sin.[/quote:2bhvmbw6]
But Jesus shed his blood at the cross for my sins. I believe in the saving power of Jesus’ sacrifice at the cross so how could I not be free of sin?
[quote:2bhvmbw6]If you have even the slightest inkling to commit even the most minor sin, you have not been perfected. That perfection is required to enter heaven.[/quote:2bhvmbw6]
Yes, but Jesus already accomplished that on the cross. He has already atoned for my sins by his perfect sacrifice…something I could never do on my own behalf. Why doesn’t Jesus’ sacrifice purify me here on earth?October 9, 2006 at 11:27 pm #7074AnonymousInactive
THAT A BABY JON Good point.
I’d like to add Isaiah 53:5 in which it says “by His Stripes we are healed”October 10, 2006 at 8:59 am #7076AnonymousInactive
Jon, do we even need Ron anymore? :-p
I need to go to bed soon so I will address these points later. All I want to say for now is that, by quoting Isaiah 53, you have now come to the forth time my saying that purgatory is an application of the merits of Christ’s sacrifice has been ignored.October 11, 2006 at 1:02 am #7077AnonymousInactive
forth time my saying that purgatory is an application of the merits of Christ’s sacrifice has een ignored.[/quote:2nor838v]
You can say it 199 times and I still will ask how you come up with that kind of nonsense? How many times must I point out that the Bible says we (if we beleive) we are healed by that – What He did – not by what we do.
so where do you come up with that?October 11, 2006 at 3:22 am #7078AnonymousInactive
I’ve been lurking around here for a while, and I’ve found most of your discussions quite illuminating. I’m not sure why now, but I finally took the plunge and registered.
Ron, I don’t think Benedict disagrees with what you say about us being healed by what He did. Benedict is describing the mechanism.
For example, I could tell you that I’m going to go to the grocery store. I may not describe, but you could infer, that I’m going to walk outside, lock my door, get in my car, make a left turn, etc etc.
Picture some acid collected in a vat. You have a marble encased in, say, styrofoam. Into the vat it goes!
marble = you; styrofoam = sin; acid = Christ’s blood; vat = purgatory.
Would you not say that this process is completely in line with the idea of us being cleansed by His blood?October 11, 2006 at 5:31 am #7079AnonymousInactive
I am at work so this will be short.
If one is sanctified, it is done through the merits of Christ’s sacrifice.
Purgatory is a process by which we are sanctified.
Therefore, purgatory is accomplished through the merits of Christ’s sacrifice.
Ron, where did you get the idea that we do anything in purgatory, such that you would bring it up as an objection? The closest that has been stated in this thread is that a person can benefit from another’s prayer.
This leads back to what I have come to mention in every thread of which you are a part – you argue against what you do not understand.
Let us start with the basics.
Ron, is our justification infused or imputed? Are we truly justified and made righteous by the blood of Christ or are we only declared and reckoned righteous?October 11, 2006 at 9:48 am #7080AnonymousInactive
I follow the New King James Bible that tells us that we are imputed His righteousness not infused not juist because in Romans 4 there are three verses that say imputed but also for the verses such as Jeremiah 17:9 –
” The heart is deceitful above all things,And desperately wicked; Who can know it?” Isaiah 64:6 – But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away. ” and “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” 2 Corinthians 5:21
Also I do not think the privious posting had it right by saying this belief of yours is in line because there is that faulty concept throughout Catholicism. As in Saved by grace by the blood/ sacraments Saved by grace/works etc etc.October 11, 2006 at 9:55 am #7081AnonymousInactive
So which do you believe:
That Christ’s sacrifice [b:1pcao73p]cannot[/b:1pcao73p] make us truly righteous or that God [b:1pcao73p]refused[/b:1pcao73p] to make us truly righteous?October 12, 2006 at 1:31 am #7085AnonymousInactive
So which do you believe:
That Christ’s sacrifice cannot make us truly righteous or that God refused to make us truly righteous? [/quote:1f779dir]
[b:1f779dir]Nice try but by faith in what He did for my sins will have the required righteousness needed to enter Heaven just as 2 Corinthians 5:21 tells us[/b:1f779dir] ” title=”Very Happy” />
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