No such place as purgatory

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  • #7321
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [color=blue:dgqrx45z]What good are prayers for the dead? If a person is in heaven, he doesn’t need prayers, and if he is damned, then no amount of prayers will help him.[/color:dgqrx45z]

    Catholics and Protestants can agree on two things regarding the afterlife: Souls in hell will not grow close to God, and those in heaven cannot draw any nearer to him. If purgatory does not exist, prayers for the dead are useless. But if a state of purification exists for some after death, and if prayers can help others in their process of sanctification in this life (Job 1:5; 1 Thess. 5:23), it seems reasonable that prayers would be beneficial to those who are being sanctified after this life. This narrows down the essential question: Does purgatory exist?

    If sin still clings to Christians (Heb 12:1), but there is no sin in heaven (Rev. 21:27), there must be a purification that takes place after one’s death and before one enters heaven. Even if it were “in the blink of an eye,” this final stage of sanctification must take place, so those who die in God’s favor may be cleansed if any affection for sin remains in them.

    Paul mentions this in 1 Cor. 3:13‚Äì15: “Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

    Paul’s thought calls to mind the image of God as the refiner’s fire and fuller’s soap mentioned in Malachi 3:2. The fuller’s soap was lye or alkaline salt that removed stains from clothing. A refiner’s fire was an oven of intense heat where precious metals were placed in order to purify them of their corrosion and dross. In the same way, purgatory is when a soul is immersed into the fire of God’s love and lifted out of the residue of its imperfections.

    [color=blue:dgqrx45z]The only reason the Catholic Church invented this unbiblical idea of purgatory is to make money off the faithful who think that they can save their unrepentant deceased relatives by paying for Masses.[/color:dgqrx45z]

    Does the Church amass wealth off of the doctrine of purgatory? The average Mass stipend (which is optional) is around five dollars. Say a parish had two daily Masses offered for the dead, it would amount to 70 dollars a week. Considering that the five-dollar stipend typically goes to pay for the church’s electricity, maintenance, furnishings, salaries, Mass wine and bread, etc., it is apparent how silly this objection about “wealth” is.

    Can Masses said after a person’s death save his soul? No. Purgatory is only for those who have repented and have died in God’s grace but still have some attachment to sin. While the Church cannot judge souls, we can be certain that if a person dies in a state of mortal sin without asking God’s forgiveness, purgatory does not await him as if it were a second chance.

    [color=blue:dgqrx45z]Weren’t prayers for the dead an invention of the medieval Church? [/color:dgqrx45z]

    Prayers for the dead are not only older than the Middle Ages, they pre-date Christianity. In the Old Testament, Judah Maccabee and his companions pray for the souls of departed soldiers: “It was a holy and pious thought. Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin” (2 Macc. 12:45). While Protestants do not accept this as an inspired book, it is worthwhile to point out that even today Jews have a prayer called the kaddish that is offered for the purification of the deceased.

    This practice of praying for the dead is also recorded throughout ancient Christian documents, such as the Acts of Paul and Thecla, and in the writings of Abercius, Perpetua, Tertullian, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius of Salamis, John Chrysostom, and Augustine. Since all of these men wrote between A.D. 160 and 421, prayers for the souls in purgatory can hardly be considered a medieval invention. On the contrary, refusing to pray for the dead is a novel idea in light of historic Judaism and Christianity.

    [color=blue:dgqrx45z]The idea of souls needing prayers in purgatory seems so contrary to the gospel that no Bible-believing Christian could believe it. [/color:dgqrx45z]

    Actually, since roughly 50 percent of all Christians are Catholics and 25 are Orthodox, about three-quarters of all Christians believe it. Certain Protestants, such as C.S. Lewis, have also held to the truth of the doctrine. In his Letters to Malcom, he said, “Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?

    “I believe in Purgatory. . . . Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’ “Even so, sir.'”

    [color=blue:dgqrx45z]But purgatory implies that Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient, that he didn’t finish the work of redemption on Calvary. Why do Catholics feel the need to add to it by doing more work in purgatory? [/color:dgqrx45z]

    This objection is based on a pair of erroneous presumptions: That progressive sanctification and suffering take away from Christ’s work on Calvary and that the Church teaches that purgatory is work.

    To address the second objection first, purgatory is not a place for those bad Catholics who didn’t finish working their way to heaven while on earth. “For by grace you have been saved by faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God not because of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8‚Äì9). The purification that takes place in purgatory is purely a work of God’s grace, since there is no chance for merit after death, and the judgment of each individual is based solely upon their earthly life. But regardless of where Christ purifies men, it is precisely because his sacrifice was sufficient that each believer can be perfected.

    Though Christ paid the infinite debt of man’s sins 2,000 years ago, the sanctification process in the life of each Christian continues. In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul tells the faithful, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” According to Scripture, sanctification is a thing of the past (1 Cor. 6:11), present (1 Thess. 4:3), and future (1 Thess. 5:23) in the Christian life.

    This process often involves suffering, as Paul indicates: “Let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus as the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross. . . . ‘My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. [God] disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it” (Heb. 12:1‚Äì12).

    Therefore, the presence of suffering does not detract from Christ’s sacrifice. In fact, there is only one mention in all of Scripture of something “lacking in Christ’s afflictions,” and that missing link is the suffering of his mystical body, the Church (Col. 1:24).

    [color=blue:dgqrx45z]I can accept that suffering happens to each believer, but Christ paid all punishments for sin. If purgatory is a punishment, then it means Christ left some part of the debt unpaid. [/color:dgqrx45z]

    Some Christians maintain that all temporal punishments for sin are taken away if the person has repented. But the Bible indicates that although God takes away the eternal punishment, some temporal punishments may remain.

    In the Old Testament, God forgave David, but still took the life of his son (2 Sam. 12:13‚Äì14). In the New Testament, Christ reiterates this principle, “Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny” (Matt. 5:25‚Äì26). It can also be mentioned that Christian women still experience the temporal punishment of birthpangs (Gen. 3:16), although Christ paid the infinite debt of man’s original sin (Rom. 5:12‚Äì21).

    The sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice is not lessened by the fact that God’s work of perfecting his children is a process that often involves suffering and even temporal punishment. While “for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant” (Heb 12:11), it is all a part of God’s promise made through Paul, “that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil 1:6), even if it should be “as through fire” (1 Cor. 3:15).
    http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp

    #7345
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Mr. Weathers,

    [quote:nhg2o8pr]What good are prayers for the dead? If a person is in heaven, he doesn’t need prayers, and if he is damned, then no amount of prayers will help him. [/quote:nhg2o8pr]

    You answered with speculative remarks, not legitimate facts –
    1 If sin still clings
    2 Paul mentions this in 1 Cor. 3:13–15
    3 Paul’s thought calls to mind ….. purgatory is when a soul is immersed into the fire of God’s love and lifted out of the residue of its imperfections.

    Biblical answers –
    1 if sin still clinges then they go to Hell for John 3:16 says – whosoever believes is saved. (Rev. 1:5 – washed in the Blood, Heb.10:14 – For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified, 1 Jn 1:7 –
    and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. and more)
    2 Notice these verses talk about our works “going through” and even that is “as if” not ourselves literally -our motives are judged.
    3 – purely feelings, speculations not facts

    [quote:nhg2o8pr]The only reason the Catholic Church invented this unbiblical idea of purgatory is to make money off the faithful who think that they can save their unrepentant deceased relatives by paying for Masses. [/quote:nhg2o8pr]

    You mention
    1 – it is apparent how silly this objection about “wealth” is.
    2 – Purgatory is only for those who have repented and have died in God’s grace but still have some attachment to sin.

    Biblical answers–
    1 – today that may seem silly but five dollars in the middle ages would be huge enough to build St.Peters Basilica or whatever when everything was gathered
    2 – We aren’t given that option after death – John 3:36 tells us if one believes they are saved, if not they aren’t!

    [quote:nhg2o8pr]Weren’t prayers for the dead an invention of the medieval Church? [/quote:nhg2o8pr]

    You answered:
    1 – Prayers for the dead are not only older than the Middle Ages, they pre-date Christianity A – Judas Maccabes prayed for the dead
    B – Jews have a prayer called the kaddish that is
    offered for the purification of the deceased.

    Biblical outlook – in neither example is the Bible extablishing doctrinal establishing any more then David’s adultery and murdering establish adultery and murder as acceptable. The facts of them doing it just are historical facts that they accured or are accuring even today by non-believers.

    [quote:nhg2o8pr]The idea of souls needing prayers in purgatory seems so contrary to the gospel that no Bible-believing Christian could believe it. [/quote:nhg2o8pr]

    You answered –
    1 – three-quarters of all Christians believe it
    2 – “I believe in Purgatory. . . . Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God ….

    Biblical outlook –
    1 – 3/4 of those who [b:nhg2o8pr][u:nhg2o8pr]claim[/u:nhg2o8pr][/b:nhg2o8pr] to be Christians perhaps, but not actual Christians – big difference
    2 – again you are making human “feelings” and speculation, instead of going by the only area that Matters – by “What does God’s word say?”

    [quote:nhg2o8pr]But purgatory implies that Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient, that he didn’t finish the work of redemption on Calvary. Why do Catholics feel the need to add to it by doing more work in purgatory? [/quote:nhg2o8pr]

    You say:
    [quote:nhg2o8pr]
    This objection is based on a pair of erroneous presumptions: That progressive sanctification and suffering take away from Christ’s work on Calvary and that the Church teaches that purgatory is work. [/quote:nhg2o8pr]

    1 – regardless of where Christ purifies men, it is precisely because his sacrifice was sufficient that each believer can be perfected. And you say that 1 Cointhians 6:11 is an example, well that verses says “[color=darkred:nhg2o8pr]And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.[/color:nhg2o8pr] notice it says Justified as in you have been – the past! Paul refers to those who have been already!!!
    Then you add 1 Thessalonians 4:3 – [color=darkred:nhg2o8pr]” For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;”[/color:nhg2o8pr] which simply tells us that if we are justified then act like you were in your daily life. And verse 1 Thessalonians 5:23 -[color=darkred:nhg2o8pr] “Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”[/color:nhg2o8pr] none of these tells us of a purification after one dies.

    then you go to (Heb. 12:1–12)
    Which tells us that God disciplines His children in verse 6 – [color=darkred:nhg2o8pr] For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.”[/color:nhg2o8pr]
    but you aren’t a child of His until you believe in Him! and this still does not talk about a punishment after death!

    Then you add:

    [quote:nhg2o8pr]I can accept that suffering happens to each believer, but Christ paid all punishments for sin. If purgatory is a punishment, then it means Christ left some part of the debt unpaid.

    Some Christians maintain that all temporal punishments for sin are taken away if the person has repented. But the Bible indicates that although God takes away the eternal punishment, some temporal punishments may remain. [/quote:nhg2o8pr]
    And you give several verses attempting to prove that

    [quote:nhg2o8pr]The sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice is not lessened by the fact that God’s work of perfecting his children is a process that often involves suffering and even temporal punishment.[/quote:nhg2o8pr]

    But none of them do establish of a place called Purgatory. Temporal punishments do not remove our sins either Mr. Weathers, that is all just empty speculations for the Bible tells us that salvation is a gift, not works
    lest one boasts. Those consequences that David lost his son is a result of his sin, not His being purged of sin

    [b:nhg2o8pr]Just keep trying, but you can’t prove something that isn’t there![/b:nhg2o8pr]

    #7348
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [color=blue:3rannrbb]Ron,this topic is going no were we could debate this till the end of time.Anyway one last thing why did you think your Bible is better then every other one?When 100 people read the Bible they probable get 98 differant meanings of what they read.Have you every had 10 people lined up and whispered a story to the first one and they whisper to the next and so forth by the time it gets to the 10th person it’s completely different.Any how Ron good luck on your new founded religion and as long as your happy and in peace with it that the main thing[/color:3rannrbb].

    #7349
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Weather, not to be contrarian, but doesn’t your example of the “telephone” game discredit oral tradition and bolster Ron’s argument that the written word is the trustworthy source?

    I mean, it could be said that the tradition has been through a 2,000 year game of telephone, whereas the Scripture was written down soon after the events and not changed.

    #7351
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Thank you XC for understanding one of the aspects that they do not see and why the written down is so much more relevant then the oral.

    Mr. Weathers, you asked what makes me think my Bible is better?
    Its not better, its just read for what it says, for it is the power to save whoever reads it and trust in it to be accurate. as a catholic, you don’t read it that way because you are told that you can’t understand it.

    and you blindly believe them!

    As far as this –
    [quote:19pwcy0i]
    good luck on your new founded religion and as long as your happy and in peace with it that the main thing.[/quote:19pwcy0i]

    how many ways do you think people have to get to Heaven? It isn’t one of those decisions like “to each his own” type of choices.

    Bottom line still comes back to What does God tell us!

    #7355
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:2173n9aj]1 if sin still clinges then they go to Hell[/quote:2173n9aj]
    It is not the guilt of sin that still clings but the attachment to sin through bad habit and concupiscence. The attachment is a result of our fallen state but is not, in and of itself, a sin (such that it would condemn us).

    [quote:2173n9aj]1 – today that may seem silly but five dollars in the middle ages would be huge[/quote:2173n9aj]
    It is relative wealth, Ron. Our five dollars is the 1920’s nickel is the Middle Age’s farthing.

    [quote:2173n9aj]2 – We aren’t given that option after death – John 3:36 tells us if one believes they are saved, if not they aren’t![/quote:2173n9aj]
    What option? No one who is not already saved and on the path to heaven will ever see purgatory. It is not a second chance at salvation, it is the threshhold.

    [quote:2173n9aj]Biblical outlook – in neither example is the Bible extablishing doctrinal establishing any more then David’s adultery and murdering establish adultery and murder as acceptable. The facts of them doing it just are historical facts that they accured or are accuring even today by non-believers. [/quote:2173n9aj]
    The fact that the early Church from the time of the Apostolic Fathers to the present day have held that prayers for the dead are both efficacious and the teaching of the Apostles establishes doctrine. St. Paul even offers a prayer for Onesiphorus, that the Lord grant him mercy.

    [quote:2173n9aj]1 – 3/4 of those who claim to be Christians perhaps, but not actual Christians – big difference[/quote:2173n9aj]
    Actual Christians being only those who believe like you do, Ron?

    [quote:2173n9aj]2 – again you are making human “feelings” and speculation, instead of going by the only area that Matters – by “What does God’s word say?”[/quote:2173n9aj]
    We covered that earlier in the thread. God’s word says nothing imperfect will enter heaven. Everyone agrees that we are not wholly perfect when we die, so we must be made so.

    [quote:2173n9aj]1 – regardless of where Christ purifies men, it is precisely because his sacrifice was sufficient that each believer can be perfected.[/quote:2173n9aj]
    Absolutely! Are you finally getting that purgatory is an application of Christ’s work to us?

    [quote:2173n9aj]but you aren’t a child of His until you believe in Him![/quote:2173n9aj]
    This is wholly irrelevant to the discussion.

    [quote:2173n9aj]Temporal punishments do not remove our sins either[/quote:2173n9aj]
    Who said they did? Ron, you are still confused on the issue. Purgatory does not remit guilt for sins. If you suffer the guilt of sin, you never reach purgatory because you are condemned.

    [quote:2173n9aj]Those consequences that David lost his son is a result of his sin, not His being purged of sin[/quote:2173n9aj]
    You are not seeing the forest for the trees. Those consequences were the temporal effects of sin. All sin carries such consequences because justice demands it. Our consequence for offending the eternal and infinite God is eternal punishment. Our consequences for offending finite man and creation is temporal punishment. God forgave David but still had him suffer the temporal punishment.

    [quote:2173n9aj]Weather, not to be contrarian, but doesn’t your example of the “telephone” game discredit oral tradition and bolster Ron’s argument that the written word is the trustworthy source?

    I mean, it could be said that the tradition has been through a 2,000 year game of telephone, whereas the Scripture was written down soon after the events and not changed. [/quote:2173n9aj]
    The same Church that preserved oral tradition was responsible for preserving the Bible. If they screwed up the oral part of tradition, they had every chance to screw up the written part. This is even stronger if someone believes the Church deliberately made up the oral tradition.

    [quote:2173n9aj]as a catholic, you don’t read it that way because you are told that you can’t understand it.[/quote:2173n9aj]
    Only by certain evangelicals. The Church has always encouraged reading and understanding Sacred Scripture. The real key is noticing that simply reading it is not understanding it.

    #7359
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [color=green:1bj5yfyn]I wish I was an [b:1bj5yfyn]”acutal christian”[/b:1bj5yfyn] like Ron. [/color:1bj5yfyn]

    #7363
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:3fgwxk39]Weather, not to be contrarian, but doesn’t your example of the “telephone” game discredit oral tradition and bolster Ron’s argument that the written word is the trustworthy source?

    I mean, it could be said that the tradition has been through a 2,000 year game of telephone, whereas the Scripture was written down soon after the events and not changed.[/quote:3fgwxk39]

    [color=red:3fgwxk39]Most non-Catholic denominations say the Catholic Church belives to much in Tradition.First of all what is the stumbling block about this and what is wrong with being traditional??. Tradition in the dictionary is defined as “the oral transmission of events,opinions,doctrines,practices,etc.,through successive generations without memorials; that which is so handed down; ancient custom.” Amen to that,I hope the Catholic Church continues Tradition till the end of time.[/color:3fgwxk39]

    #7377
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Although the word “purgatory” is not mentioned in the Bible, the reality of purgatory is clearly mentioned there. [color=red:1bt9hw7x]The words “Trinity” and “incarnation” and “Bible” are not mentioned in the Bible,[/color:1bt9hw7x] but these realities are revealed there. Jesus speaks of sins to be forgiven in the life to come (Matthew 12:23). Saint Paul speaks of those saved in the next life “through fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15). Saint Peter speaks of the “spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3:18-20) and of the Gospel “preached to the dead” (1 Peter 4:6). The Bible explicitly tells us to pray for the dead (2 Maccabees 12:44-46). Besides being found in Sacred Tradition, which explicitly affirms the existence of purgatory, it is clearly that the doctrine of it existence is also found in Sacred Scripture.

    #7383
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Mr. Weathers says:

    [quote:3b1nt4a1]”purgatory” is not mentioned in the Bible, the reality of purgatory is clearly mentioned there[/quote:3b1nt4a1]

    Actually Purgatory isn’t there because the reality is that there is no Purgatory.

    [quote:3b1nt4a1]Jesus speaks of sins to be forgiven in the life to come (Matthew 12:23). [/quote:3b1nt4a1]

    This speaks of no sins to be forgiven in the life to come because we are judged according to our life on Earth, we either go to Heaven or Hell based on whether we accepted God’s gift of Salvation.

    [quote:3b1nt4a1]Saint Paul speaks of those saved in the next life “through fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15). [/quote:3b1nt4a1]

    As we saw in an earlier posting – this verse says our works are examined not our bodies, it reviels the motives behind whatever we’ve ever done.

    [quote:3b1nt4a1]Saint Peter speaks of the “spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3:18-20) and of the Gospel “preached to the dead” (1 Peter 4:6). [/quote:3b1nt4a1]

    Sure there was Abraham’s boosom (as seen in Luke 16:19-31) and such a place before Jesus was resurrected, but that is no longer there because He had to be the first to be resurrected and there is now no need for it.
    Neither example of your examples prove of a place called Purgatory.

    [quote:3b1nt4a1]The Bible explicitly tells us to pray for the dead (2 Maccabees 12:44-46).[/quote:3b1nt4a1]

    That is in error as Maccabees is not part of the Bible, but is part of the
    Apocrypha as explained here:
    http://www.freewebs.com/glmarticle/article40.htm

    [quote:3b1nt4a1]Besides being found in Sacred Tradition, which explicitly affirms the existence of purgatory, it is clearly that the doctrine of it existence is also found in Sacred Scripture[/quote:3b1nt4a1]

    So much for “sacred Traditions” as they often times are in direct conflict with God’s written word the Bible and we are warned not to do or believe in such “traditions.”

    #7390
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    :rolleyes: [color=red:13884nha]DID ONE EVERY THINK[/color:13884nha],What if there was not a Purgatory and all these Bible verses were for naught,would not it be safe to believe it rather then to error??, Even at one time Luther believe in Purgatory then all of a sudden he got mad at the pope and rejected everything about the Catholic religion,I read the reason he got mad at the Pope is Luther wanted to marry a nun and the Pope rejected the idea.

    #7427
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    <img loading=” title=”Smile” /> You have escaped damnation and made it to Purgatory, a place where the dew of repentance washes off the stain of sin and girds the spirit with humility. Through contrition, confession, and satisfaction by works of righteousness, you must make your way up the mountain. As the sins are cleansed from your soul, you will be illuminated by the Sun of Divine Grace, and you will join other souls, smiling and happy, upon the summit of this mountain. Before long you will know the joys of Paradise as you ascend to the ethereal realm o

    http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-infe … ation.html

    #7436
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I just thought I’d remind you that Scriptures are the Word of God and “they are truth” – (John 17:17)

    And they tell us Jesus washed us, purged away a beliver with His blood when we place our faith in what He did at Calvary!

    Thereefore, there is [color=red:3najg1z7]no Purgatory[/color:3najg1z7]!

    #7449
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [color=green:17layuoz]Wow Ron, you convinced me.[/color:17layuoz]

    [img:17layuoz]http://www.thisaremusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/simon.jpg[/img:17layuoz]

    #7468
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    A Christian friend of mine says that the Bible contains no references to purgatory. What is the basis for the Catholic Church’s teaching about this? Why do Catholics pray for the dead?

    In 2 Maccabees 12:38-46, Judas Maccabee orders that sacrifices be offered in the Temple in Jerusalem for slain Jewish soldiers who had worn pagan amulets (good-luck charms).

    Some people have seen this story as biblical justification for the teaching on purgatory. That certainly overstates the author’s intention. If, however, those Jewish soldiers did something wrong by wearing pagan amulets, why offer sacrifices on their behalf?

    The two Books of Maccabees are probably not in your friend’s Bible because they were originally written in Greek. During Jesus’ lifetime, some Jewish people regarded these books as inspired by God.

    About 60 years after Jesus’ death, however, rabbis at Jamnia in Palestine drew up the list (canon) of the Scriptures used by Jewish people to this day. That shorter list includes only works composed in Hebrew, excluding the two Books of Maccabees, five other books and parts of the Books of Daniel and Esther.

    For centuries, Eastern and Western Christians accepted as inspired the longer list. When Martin Luther translated the Bible, he used the shorter list. Sometimes, these seven books are printed in Protestant Bibles as “Deutero-canonical” or “Apocrypha.”

    The New Testament and early Christian writings offer some evidence for purgatory. In 2 Timothy 1:18, St. Paul prays for Onesiphorus, who has died. The earliest mention of prayers for the dead in public Christian worship is by the writer Tertullian in 211 A.D.

    The question of purgatory and praying for the dead was a major issue between Catholics and Protestants in the 16th century. The Council of Trent’s 1563 decree about purgatory reaffirmed its existence and the usefulness of prayers for the deceased, yet it cautioned against “a certain kind of curiosity or superstition…” about it.

    The Roman Catholic teaching on purgatory reflects its understanding of the communion of saints. We are connected to the saints in heaven, the saints-in-waiting in purgatory and other believers here on earth. Prayers for the deceased are not a means of buying their way out of purgatory.

    The Catholic Church’s teaching about purgatory (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #1030-32) says that all sin, unfortunately, has a life of its own and may have bad effects even after the sinner repents. Sincere repentance includes a desire to repair the damage done by one’s sins. That may or may not be complete before the person dies.

    When the world ends at the Final Judgment, there will be only two possibilities: heaven and hell. We who celebrate Jesus’ Resurrection over sin and death look forward to sharing in that victory, and we pray that our beloved dead may do the same.

    http://www.americancatholic.org/Messeng … iseman.asp

    #7485
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Mr Weathers,

    Here is the article about your Apocrapha:

    http://www.freewebs.com/glmarticle/article40.htm

    or enjoy this one:

    http://www.studytoanswer.net/rcc/rvb_ap … #ntwriters

    #7556
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [color=red:38e6doi2]There are two events that occur during glorification, these are “the receiving of perfection by the elect before entering into the kingdom of heaven,” and “the receiving of the resurrection bodies by the elect”[/color:38e6doi2]
    Glorification is the third stage of Christian development. The first being justification, then sanctification, and finally glorification. “Glorification is the completion, the consummation, the perfection, the full realization of salvation.” (Rom. 8:28-30)

    Receiving of Perfection
    [color=red:38e6doi2]Glorification is the Protestant alternative to purgatory, as it is “the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven.”[/color:38e6doi2]
    While purgatory deals with the means by which the elect become perfect, glorification deals with the elect becoming perfect.

    The majority of Protestant denominations believe in this form of glorification, although some have alternative names.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorification

    #7557
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    The word “Purgatory” does not appear in the Bible and, therefore, some would claim that its existence has no biblical basis. There are, however, scriptural passages that refer to the importance of praying for the dead and the notion of a person’s sins being forgiven after he/she has died. The two passages that immediately come to mind are 2 Maccabees 12:45 and Matthew 12:32. In 2 Maccabees the writer speaks of praying for the dead as “an atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.” In Matthew’s Gospel we read that “anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Thus the idea of a place that exists between death and heaven, although not named outright, is implied in the Bible. Traditional beliefs about Purgatory stem from these and similar passages and were further developed throughout the early centuries of Christianity.

    #7567
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    What is it that you don’t undeerstand?

    You state:
    [quote:3e3f8yk4] In 2 Maccabees the writer speaks of praying for the dead as “an atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.” [/quote:3e3f8yk4]

    which is proof why Maccabees is not part pf the Bible. As stated previously, they said that this was done which is not the same as extablishing doctinal substance anymore then David committing adulterly gives us the okay.
    [quote:3e3f8yk4]
    In Matthew’s Gospel we read that “anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Thus the idea of a place that exists between death and heaven, although not named outright, is implied in the Bible[/quote:3e3f8yk4]

    implied? But what does Scripture actually say – Hebrews 9:27 we are to die and then judgement, and others that tell us we (believers) have been washed, cleansed, boughten, and purged all by the blood of Jesus

    #7570
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Ron, if you think that is an answer to purgatory you are still, after all these months, completely in the dark. And given all that has been repeatedly presented to you, how can we conclude anything but you are deliberately ignoring it?

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