No such place as purgatory

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This topic contains 102 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Andres Ortiz 8 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #1185

    Ron K
    Member

    Hey Victor you aren’t correct here either –

    Article #26 – Purgatory

    Purgatory! Is there such a place, and if so, what is its purpose? Does the Bible tell us about a place such as Purgatory? The best place to start checking out about Purgatory would be the Catholic catechism. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines Purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). There are many that never heard about this place, but consider this statement found on the web. “If sin still clings to Christians (Heb 12:1), but there is no sin in heaven (Rev. 21:27), there must be a purification that takes place after one’s death and before one enters heaven. Therefore, common sense tells us that our sanctification is usually not complete when we die, though we know we will be perfectly sanctified in heaven. Thus between death and glory must come a purification.” (http://www.Catholic.com )

    A few years ago, one of my uncles told me that at least seven areas in Scriptures proved that there is a place called Purgatory, and he invited me over to his house so that he could show me them. Needless to say, I accepted his invitation, mentioning that I knew that the Bible doesn’t in any such way teach about Purgatory even once. Oh, there are serious attempts to quote Scriptures that seemingly prove of a Purgatory, but this is done without the Gospel facts by which Scriptures prove that there can be NO such thing as a place called Purgatory. Over and over again we find that Jesus “redeemed us” (1 Peter 1:19,20), “purchased us” (Acts 20:28), and “washed us from our sins in his own blood.” (Revelation 1:5) The fact is that when Jesus shouted from the cross, “It is Finished” (John 19:30) He was professing that sins had been wiped away from all believers as Isaiah said, “and with His stripes we are healed!” (Isaiah 53:5) Believers can know that there is no purgatory simply because the Bible tells us that “… he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” (2 Cor. 5:21) It’s the great exchange by which we can lose our sins and gain His righteousness, and if we have His righteousness, we are cleansed of sin. We need no further purification.

    The Bible does say that, “… the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) If your sins are forgiven, they are also forgotten, so after death we are judged. Certainly any temporal punishment that our sins bring us has already occurred on Earth, as seen by the example of David losing his son after his adulterous fling with Bathsheba. These temporary trials, or punishments are simply for our learning as God does indeed chastise His children, and “afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.” (Hebrews 12:11)

    So what are some of the evidence verses in which those that believe in Purgatory use to support and convince others that there is a Purgatory? My uncle showed me 1 Corinthians 3:15, which is one of their favorite verses. It says, “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” But this is really the Bema-seat Judgment, in which the WORKS go through a examination, not the person. Their motives for why people did things are exposed as good or selfish by Jesus, not the people themselves. That certainly isn’t Purgatory. Neither are the rest of the evidence verses, such as 1 Peter 3:10 where Peter tells us that Jesus, “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.” Certainly that gives us proof of another place besides Heaven or Hell. This place, called “Limbo of the fathers” by some, was temporary, having served its purpose and was emptied AFTER Jesus resurrected. Jesus needed to be the first to resurrect in His glorified body and now there is no need for this place.

    What about Judas Maccabees in which their Bible shows him praying for the dead and making atonement for them? (2 Macc. 12:43-45). First, let me mention that these verses are taken from the Apocrypha – not recognized as Scripture. However since it has been brought up by Purgatory proponents, we’ll examine it as well. This is simply an historical example of someone doing it, not the establishing of doctrine just as David committing an adulterous affair doesn’t provide opportunities for us to do likewise.

    We could continue, but I think you see the foolishness of this belief system already. The problem arises out of the fact that those who defend Purgatory simply have the wrong idea of how (or who) gets to Heaven. What seemed to be logical about a place called Purgatory, since no sin enters Heaven, isn’t always the way God sees things. And how we feel about something isn’t important. What does His Word, the Bible, say? That is what really matters. Thus, we should remember that Jesus took care of the sins at Calvary with His blood, “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.” (Hebrews 9:22) God loves us so much that He gave us His Son to take care of sins, thus there is no possibility for a place called Purgatory, “and with His stripes we are healed!” (Isaiah 53:5) Believers, just as Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:8, know that “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”

    #5819

    Wow. Has this kind of nonsense been going on in the long time I have been gone?

    I’m shocked at your lack of logic, Ron. Somehow you equate “redeeming us” and “saving” us with no purgatory…

    uh, right.

    #5820

    Ron K
    Member

    Hello Uncertaindrummer, you said: [quote:1yy9eyzz]
    I’m shocked at your lack of logic, Ron. Somehow you equate “redeeming us” and “saving” us with no purgatory…

    uh, right.[/quote:1yy9eyzz]

    unfortunately you disagree? Well what sin of mine didn’t Jesus take care of at Calvary that you seem to think I would need a place called Purgatory?

    Oh you have a nice comment at the bottom, but knowing that Jesus died for you won’t do you any good if you don’t believe in what He did with His death and if you believe in a Purgatory, then it is obvious that you don’t!

    #5822

    What sin did He not take care of? Lemme ask you something. When it says He redeemed us, does it mean only those who believe in Him? No, He redeemed HUMANITY, and yet not everyone is going to Heaven, so obviously there is more to it than that.

    I find it hard to believe you are naive enough to think that you can go around sinning as often as you like and it won’t matter.

    #5823

    Ron K
    Member

    [b:3cv5tgti]Uncertaindrummer, you said:[/b:3cv5tgti]
    [quote:3cv5tgti]What sin did He not take care of? Lemme ask you something. When it says He redeemed us, does it mean only those who believe in Him? No, He redeemed HUMANITY, and yet not everyone is going to Heaven, so obviously there is more to it than that.

    [b:3cv5tgti]Yes but only those whom believe in His work at Calvary are saved – (see John 3:16 and 3:36)[/b:3cv5tgti]

    I find it hard to believe you are naive enough to think that you can go around sinning as often as you like and it won’t matter[/quote:3cv5tgti].

    And whomever gave you that idea? It certainly wasn’t me as a believer it never gives anyone the free license to sin all they want too for we are new creatures in Christ or is it just what you’ve been told to think?[/i][/b]

    #5824

    Now hold on. Saved? That is different from redeemed, and that is what Jesus did for [i:3qw6tu5h]everyone[/i:3qw6tu5h]. Being saved comes later. So basically you just admitted that Jesus Redeeming us has nothing to do with purgatory.

    Second, I’ll tell you who gave me that idea, Martin Luther (ya know, the guy who started the whole rebellion against God’s Church thing) gave me that idea, telling me I should sin often since it proves my faith. And basically protestants have never really changed that. If there is no purgatory, it means one of three things:

    Everyone who has even the slightest sin at the time of death (or even un-satisfied retribution for sin) goes to Hell.

    OR

    Everyone who sins goes right to Heaven despite these sins, contradicting Revelation and two thousand years of Church teachings.

    Care to make either one of those arguments? There is not a middle ground. Either we get cleansed or we go to Hell, according to your system. And if you try and say something silly (the only other option) along the lines of “Oh well, you see, Jesus took all of my sins away” then you are saying what Luther said: Sin does not even matter, whatsoever; we can go on sinning all we want (and actually SHOULD sin since it proves our Faith in God, liek Luther said), as long as we say “Lord, Lord”.*

    *Wait… didn’t Jesus say something about that….?

    #5825

    Ron K
    Member

    Very narrow thinking by saying

    [quote:1z9xihjp]Now hold on. Saved? That is different from redeemed, and that is what Jesus did for everyone. Being saved comes later. So basically you just admitted that Jesus Redeeming us has nothing to do with purgatory [/quote:1z9xihjp]

    It all is the same -if one is redeemed, their sins are forgiven!

    [quote:1z9xihjp]Second, I’ll tell you who gave me that idea, Martin Luther (ya know, the guy who started the whole rebellion against God’s Church thing) gave me that idea, telling me I should sin often since it proves my faith. And basically protestants have never really changed that.[/quote:1z9xihjp]

    I applaud Martin Luther for starting the reformation, but he is not my Leader, Jesus Christ (of the Bible) is And I follow His word not Martin Luther

    [quote:1z9xihjp]If there is no purgatory, it means one of three things:

    Everyone who has even the slightest sin at the time of death (or even un-satisfied retribution for sin) goes to Hell.

    OR

    Everyone who sins goes right to Heaven despite these sins, contradicting Revelation and two thousand years of Church teachings. [/quote:1z9xihjp]

    Or the third way as His Word tells us in Hebrews 1:3 -Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,[color=red:1z9xihjp][b:1z9xihjp] when he had by himself purged our sins, [/b:1z9xihjp][/color:1z9xihjp]sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
    ISA 53:5 – But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    ROM 5:9 – Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    ACTS 20:28 – which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    EPH 1:7 – In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    COL 1:14 – In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    COL 1:20 – And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

    HEB 10:10-12, 14 – By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: (12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God ;(14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    1 PET 1:18 -19 – Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; (19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    I JN 1:7 – But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    REV 1:5 – And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, In other words, when Jesus said, “It is finished” as He died on the cross, He was declaring that He did everything (and the only thing) that takes away sins. That is further shown in Hebrews 1:3 where it says “After having PURGED our sins..”

    Noticed the focus is in what He did? John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” The Bible reveals that Salvation is a gift, attained by faith in what He did nearly 2000 years ago at Calvary, not what we do. The perfect righteousness, needed to enter Heaven is imputed to our account the moment we accept God’s gift by making that “born-again” decision of making Him your personal Lord and Savior, thus we can know that, “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (ROMANS 3:24)

    I choose Number 3- the finished work of Jesus <img src=” title=”Very Happy” />

    #5826

    I came back here because Victor asked if I could spare some of my time that he did not have to spare.

    I see now that no amount of common sense will do you good. You can throw scriptue passages at me all day long. You think I haven’t READ them? How about reading 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. Just read it with an open mind and tell me what you think of it.

    Your theory that: Jesus saved us so we need do nothing. What of the fact that all Jesus did while on Earth is exhort us to DO things! Just READ the Gospels man, without prejudice or singling out of specific passages. Just read them, and notice HOW OFTEN we are told to [i:29r20owr]do[/i:29r20owr] things by Jesus. Then go read James.

    In the meantime stop stalling the discussion of purgatory by bringing your entire system into this. I KNOW you think you are saved by Faith alone. But exlpain to me what happens to someone who (is “saved” of course) dies with undeadly sin. What happens?

    When you deal with my arguments and stop coming up with the childish answer that faith alone will save you, perhaps we will have something to talk about.

    #5828

    Ron K
    Member

    [b:3k6xg1og]Uncertaindrummer you said – [/b:3k6xg1og]
    [quote:3k6xg1og]I see now that no amount of common sense will do you good. You can throw scriptue passages at me all day long. You think I haven’t READ them? How about reading 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. Just read it with an open mind and tell me what you think of it. [/quote:3k6xg1og]

    [b:3k6xg1og]I’m well aware of those verses… Did you read them? They say nothing about anybody going through fire.. it says our works do, our works are examined for what? motivation behind the things we’ve done. Furthermore Scriptures do not contradict other Scriptures such as Hebrews 9:22 – that tells us without the sheding of blood there is no forgiveness – it says nothing about being purged BY fire! So now who is using common sense here? you continued:[/b:3k6xg1og]

    [quote:3k6xg1og]Your theory that: Jesus saved us so we need do nothing. What of the fact that all Jesus did while on Earth is exhort us to DO things! Just READ the Gospels man, without prejudice or singling out of specific passages. Just read them, and notice HOW OFTEN we are told to do things by Jesus. Then go read James[/quote:3k6xg1og]

    [b:3k6xg1og]I am aware of James and he is correct “Faith without works is dead!” But Faith in what? your abilities to do enough to gain Heaven? Cann”t happen, but faith alone in what Jesus did does save THEN if one says He believes they should have been doing works as evidence that one really is a Believer, not as a means to gain Heaven; It is clearly demonstrated in that Ephesians 2:10 follows verses 8+9 where the works comes in! You continued:[/b:3k6xg1og]

    [quote:3k6xg1og]In the meantime stop stalling the discussion of purgatory by bringing your entire system into this. I KNOW you think you are saved by Faith alone. But exlpain to me what happens to someone who (is “saved” of course) dies with undeadly sin. What happens?[/quote:3k6xg1og]

    [b:3k6xg1og]What sin isn’t deadly? James as you recommended says if we are guilty of one we’re guilty of all! What sins can we get away with? none- for no sin enters Heaven (Rev.21:27) Now if we both sin and die which is very likely to happen, I still get saved because I trusted in the finished work of Jesus at Calvary, but you who trusts in priests and sacrements and purgatory…. well read John 3:36 – it (the second half) is self explanitory[/b:3k6xg1og]

    [quote:3k6xg1og]When you deal with my arguments and stop coming up with the childish answer that faith alone will save you, perhaps we will have something to talk about.[/quote:3k6xg1og]

    N[b:3k6xg1og]ow what do you have to talk about???? (or is it you won’t talk at all)[/b:3k6xg1og]

    #5830

    [quote:26sgwu2r][b:26sgwu2r]Uncertaindrummer you said – [/b:26sgwu2r]
    [quote:26sgwu2r]I see now that no amount of common sense will do you good. You can throw scriptue passages at me all day long. You think I haven’t READ them? How about reading 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. Just read it with an open mind and tell me what you think of it. [/quote:26sgwu2r]

    [b:26sgwu2r]I’m well aware of those verses… Did you read them? They say nothing about anybody going through fire.. it says our works do, our works are examined for what? motivation behind the things we’ve done. Furthermore Scriptures do not contradict other Scriptures such as Hebrews 9:22 – that tells us without the sheding of blood there is no forgiveness – it says nothing about being purged BY fire! So now who is using common sense here? you continued:[/b:26sgwu2r][/quote:26sgwu2r]

    You are right, Scripture can’t contradict itself, and 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15 clearly says that we will suffer loss but still be saved. Now how exactly is that possible? How can we be burned and yet still be saved? Purgatory is simply the only thing that makes sense.

    [quote:26sgwu2r][b:26sgwu2r]I am aware of James and he is correct “Faith without works is dead!” But Faith in what? your abilities to do enough to gain Heaven? Cann”t happen, but faith alone in what Jesus did does save THEN if one says He believes they should have been doing works as evidence that one really is a Believer, not as a means to gain Heaven; It is clearly demonstrated in that Ephesians 2:10 follows verses 8+9 where the works comes in! You continued:[/b:26sgwu2r][/quote:26sgwu2r]

    James ALSO says we are justified by “works and not by faith alone”. I don’t suppose you’d care to explain THAT to me?

    [quote:26sgwu2r][b:26sgwu2r]What sin isn’t deadly? James as you recommended says if we are guilty of one we’re guilty of all! What sins can we get away with? none- for no sin enters Heaven (Rev.21:27) Now if we both sin and die which is very likely to happen, I still get saved because I trusted in the finished work of Jesus at Calvary, but you who trusts in priests and sacrements and purgatory…. well read John 3:36 – it (the second half) is self explanitory[/b:26sgwu2r][/quote:26sgwu2r]

    What sin isn’t deadly? Haven’t you read where John TELLS us not all sin is deadly? So you are, as usual, going back to the old protestant idea that if we die with sin it all gets wiped away for no good reason at all. so tell me, why shouldn’t i sin ALL THE TIME? Why shouldn’t I do what Luther said, and sin a thousand times a day to prove my faith in Jesus Christ (and have a good time while doing it)?

    Sinning is not a minor thing and yet you would have us believe it is a totally unimportant thing, that we can do with impunity as long as we believe in Jesus. Like James says, the devils believe in Jesus. We have to do more than that.

    #5836

    Ron K
    Member

    Uncertandrummer says:[quote:1tpd51bc]
    You are right, Scripture can’t contradict itself, and 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15 clearly says that we will suffer loss but still be saved. Now how exactly is that possible? How can we be burned and yet still be saved? Purgatory is simply the only thing that makes sense. [/quote:1tpd51bc]

    we (believers) will lose many rewards at the Bema Seat Judgment for our motives were possible wrong or whatever, but we’re still saved. This is about our works being examined not our bodies being burnt. No Purgatory doesn ‘t make sense when Jesus already took care of our sins on the cross

    [quote:1tpd51bc] James ALSO says we are justified by “works and not by faith alone”. I don’t suppose you’d care to explain THAT to me?[/quote:1tpd51bc]

    I already explained this….. if a man has no works then His Faith probably isn’t for real – but that doesn’t mean that works take away sins nor helps save anyone. Our salvation is a Gift (Romans 6:23b) to whomever believes in the only work that can take away sins – what Jesus did nearly 2000 yeares ago on the cross -and we can get it by faith only

    [quote:1tpd51bc]What sin isn’t deadly? Haven’t you read where John TELLS us not all sin is deadly? So you are, as usual, going back to the old protestant idea that if we die with sin it all gets wiped away for no good reason at all. so tell me, why shouldn’t i sin ALL THE TIME? Why shouldn’t I do what Luther said, and sin a thousand times a day to prove my faith in Jesus Christ (and have a good time while doing it)? [/quote:1tpd51bc]

    Physically most sins don’t put you to death – physical death But as Scriptures say no sin gets into Heaven so spiritually we must be cleansed and that is by faith in what Jesus did. Why not sin? B elieving in Him means that we strive to obey Him too… don’t overlook the fact that God disiplines His Children (Hebrews 12:7 I think) so why would a believer want to sin??

    [quote:1tpd51bc]Sinning is not a minor thing and yet you would have us believe it is a totally unimportant thing, that we can do with impunity as long as we believe in Jesus. Like James says, the devils believe in Jesus. We have to do more than that.[/quote:1tpd51bc]
    How about believing in what Jesus did? (READ JOHN 6:28,29)

    #5837

    Victor
    Member

    UD, I think you will be going in circles with this topic if we don’t get salvation out of the way first. Purgatory is only a part of salvation.
    Just check out his definition of faith:

    [quote:1eezip1l]A belief in or confident attitude toward God, [color=green:1eezip1l]involving commitment[/color:1eezip1l] to His will [color=red:1eezip1l]for one’s life[/color:1eezip1l].[/quote:1eezip1l]

    Two things to notice here.

    [b:1eezip1l]1.[/b:1eezip1l] It sure does appear that [color=green:1eezip1l]”involving commitment”[/color:1eezip1l] is their way of saying works as we understand it. Commitment to God is so obvious to catholics that it’s not a word we toss around often.

    [b:1eezip1l]2.[/b:1eezip1l] Since Protestantism has a much greater and only focus (at least most I have come across with and read about) on a [color=red:1eezip1l]one on one type[/color:1eezip1l] of relationship with God it does affect how they interpret the scriptures. As catholics we also have a one on one personal relationship, but we often extend verses to the Church. Or the [b:1eezip1l]family of God.[/b:1eezip1l] It’s way more of a family setting and it is rather special because you have a family and a one on one with God. Although the [color=red:1eezip1l]one on one [/color:1eezip1l]is something we mostly do in prayer and is not something we focus on ONLY. It’s more of a humbling type of extension in my opinion.

    Lastly, if [i:1eezip1l]involving commitment[/i:1eezip1l] with God is something one must DO, then it is rather obvious that Ron doesn’t believe in a DO NOTHING faith. More interesting is whether someone has to even do this to go to heaven. Do they Ron? <img src=” title=”Wink” />

    If you ask me, we should go duke out salvation first. <img src=” title=”Smile” />

    #5839

    Well discussing salvation with Ron is nearly impossible. So is discussing purgatory. He just keeps repeating the same things and acting as if they prove something.

    Jesus redeemed us Ron, he didn’t deliver us from having any responsibility at all, which is what you are saying. Why should I not sin? Well, according to you, there is no reason at all to not sin.

    #5841

    Ron K
    Member

    [b:71sknedb]Hello Victor, You said:[/b:71sknedb]

    [quote:71sknedb]
    Lastly, if involving commitment with God is something one must DO, then it is rather obvious that Ron doesn’t believe in a DO NOTHING faith. More interesting is whether someone has to even do this to go to heaven. Do they Ron? [/quote:71sknedb]

    I’ve explained that nothing we do except believing in what Jesus did at Calvary nearly 2000 years ago, will get them into Heaven, no amount of anything we do can help get anyone into Heaven, that works comes after the faith part just as Ephesians 2:10 follows verses 8+9, faith alone saves.
    The works just reflect what one believes. For instance, to believe in a place such as Purgatory proves that you don’t believe Jesus took care of your sins.

    Uncertaindrummer, You said:
    [quote:71sknedb]Well discussing salvation with Ron is nearly impossible. So is discussing purgatory. He just keeps repeating the same things and acting as if they prove something.

    Jesus redeemed us Ron, he didn’t deliver us from having any responsibility at all, which is what you are saying. Why should I not sin? Well, according to you, there is no reason at all to not sin. [/quote:71sknedb]

    Kindly be specific about what you are trying to say such as what I keep repeating that you don’t understand?
    Why would a believer want to sin? There are a lot of reasons not to sin, If you truly are a believer, wouldn’t you want to be like Jesus could be #1. #2 – God disciplines HIS children would be another reason

    You surely misunderstand much of Scriptures

    #5869

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    I split this topic from the Orthodoxy thread since the Orthodoxy thread was specific to Orthodox belief (or lack of) in purgatory.

    #5870

    Ron K
    Member

    Well do what you wish but the facts remain

    [b:3hjrbd0r]there is [color=red:3hjrbd0r]no Purgatory!![/color:3hjrbd0r]![/b:3hjrbd0r]

    #5888

    Victor
    Member

    [quote:34p9cjat]Well do what you wish but the facts remain

    [b:34p9cjat]there is [color=red:34p9cjat]no Purgatory!![/color:34p9cjat]![/b:34p9cjat][/quote:34p9cjat]

    I must have missed them.

    #5894

    weather
    Member

    <img src=” title=”Neutral” />
    Only you will know when the time comes,I guess I don’t want to take the gamble,you cannot not enter the kingdom of heaven with a unclean soul,everyone was born with verinal sins(which has to be cleanse in purgetory). Good luck to you.

    #5903

    Ron K
    Member

    Weather wrote:
    [quote:jgj1zfhs]Only you will know when the time comes,I guess I don’t want to take the gamble,you cannot not enter the kingdom of heaven with a unclean soul,everyone was born with verinal sins(which has to be cleanse in purgetory). Good luck to you.
    [/quote:jgj1zfhs]
    Luck? that won’t get me into Heaven anymore then a myth described as Purgatory. Don’t you get it? I believe God’s written word that Jesus took care of my sins at Calvary’s Cross, there is no other solution, not purgatory, Masses, or any other “tradition” that the Supposedly “infallible”
    Roman Catholic Church can imagine up! You guys keep thinking that your salvation is dependent upon your performance and you disregard what Jesus did at Calvary….. Venial sins? see my view on that at article #25 — look over the rest of my web site as well

    [b:jgj1zfhs][color=red:jgj1zfhs]http://www.freewebs.com/gospellightmin/articles.htm[/color:jgj1zfhs][/b:jgj1zfhs]

    #5904

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    [quote:10r6c65g]You guys keep thinking that your salvation is dependent upon your performance and you disregard what Jesus did at Calvary[/quote:10r6c65g]
    No, we really don’t. Jesus opened the gates of heaven for everyone and yes, whether we did the will of the Father or not we either go to heaven or hell. Without Jesus we would not be able to go to heaven because he is the only sacrifice that could atone for the Original Sin. We became separated from God through the sin of Adam and the only sacrifice that was great enough to please God was for God himself to become human flesh and die.

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