Home › Forums › Everything Else › doctor Luther never accused catholic statues as idolatry???
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June 21, 2010 at 6:17 am #9926AnonymousInactive"passionately_catholic":3pwjk56t wrote:hey, the jesuits were associated with the counter reformation weren’t they?[/quote:3pwjk56t]
I would say that they are associated with the Counter Reformation, but that’s just me."passionately_catholic":3pwjk56t wrote:and why on earth are they the only religious society that anti-catholics hate the most? lol[/quote:3pwjk56t]
I would say that they are one of the most disliked Catholic organization by Anti-Catholic or Anti-Christian groups. There are other groups that most Anti-Catholic groups hate; some of them include Jews and Muslims. The reason why they hate this group is beyond meJune 21, 2010 at 2:30 pm #9930AnonymousInactive
Thanks James, yes it was Charles V.
There were very serious issues that did lead up to some of the issues that sparked the Reformation that had to be addressed. The secular Clergy were poorly trained, many simply apprenticed learning from their local priest. Many of the laity were poorly instructed in the faith, and disregarded the moral and dogmatic teachings of the Church (Remind you of any other times in history?) The Counter-Reformation was an effort within the Catholic Church to address these issues.
One of the Counter-Reformation tasks was to establish a standard for Seminaries, the coursework and spiritual formation was now required to meet a minimum standard. There was also Liturgical Chaos, Different areas were following their own rites and Mass was not offered uniformly. While the same basic format existed, there were many different variations, and little unity. The Liturgical books were up to this point all copied by hand. If a local bishop wanted to change something, he did. After the Council of Trent, which was called in part to address some of the new doctrines that Martin Luther and Jon Calvin were teaching, the Council addressed some of the issues that Luther, Calvin and many Catholic bishops were unhappy with. Pope Pius V, was tasked to reform the Breviary and Missal, everywhere the Mass was offered in a rite that was not in constant use for 200 years or more the Breviary and Missal was made to conform to the way the Mass was offered in Rome. This meant that the Rites of the Dominicans, Franciscans, Milan, Braga, and Toledo (Spain) would remain intact, but newer rites in France and Germany that were developed more recently would have to conform to the Rite that had been offered in Rome since Pope Gregory I (Gregory the Great) in around 700, but going back even further. The Counter-Reformation was depicted in a drawing of the day showing Protestants hacking at the outside of the Church with axes, while Catholics repaired leaks and things that had broken on the inside.
Because the Jesuits were very well trained and engaged in debate with Protestants, as well as added to their vows of Poverty, Chastity and Obedience, a speacial vow of Fidelity to the Pope. As well as being founded by a former Soldier who modeled the Society of Jesus along the lines of the Military standards he knew, they became the target of attack. Many rumors developed about them, just like the rumors about Opus Dei (most famously attacked by rumors in Dan Brown’s Davinci Code.)June 21, 2010 at 5:22 pm #9936AnonymousInactive"LARobert":3pgi4phd wrote:There were very serious issues that did lead up to some of the issues that sparked the Reformation that had to be addressed. The secular Clergy were poorly trained, many simply apprenticed learning from their local priest. Many of the laity were poorly instructed in the faith, and disregarded the moral and dogmatic teachings of the Church (Remind you of any other times in history?) The Counter-Reformation was an effort within the Catholic Church to address these issues.[/quote:3pgi4phd]
As Luther was correcting the clergy of the Lutheran Church and instructing the Laymen of their faith, So were the Catholics within their own church. Is this correct?
One reason why Luther wrote the Small Catechism was so that the Laymen could understand the teachings of the Christian ChurchJune 21, 2010 at 6:12 pm #9938AnonymousInactive
The Church has always been need of Reform. As Catholics we believe that the Church is Divine, in that Jesus founded it, and promised to remain with it. He also promised that he would send the Holy Ghost to guide it. We believe that while we are individually inspired by the grace of God to improve out daily lives, we do not have the same guarentee as individuals as the Church as a whole does in the Magesterium.
From the time of the Apostles to today, there are those within the Church who understand the faith in an erronious way, or who do not follow the moral and dogmatic teachings of the Church. Even in times when most of the members of the Church, clergy and lay alike did not follow what the Church teaches, the teachings, were never compromized. They remained intact.
The question comes is it ever appropriate to remove oneself from communion with the rest of the Church, or should one do everything they can to work for reformation within the body of christ.June 22, 2010 at 12:38 am #9941AnonymousInactive"LARobert":2cb7t2lz wrote:The question comes is it ever appropriate to remove oneself from communion with the rest of the Church, or should one do everything they can to work for reformation within the body of christ.[/quote:2cb7t2lz]
How would you answer it?June 22, 2010 at 2:59 am #9942AnonymousInactive"James":2b7nou33 wrote:"LARobert":2b7nou33 wrote:The question comes is it ever appropriate to remove oneself from communion with the rest of the Church, or should one do everything they can to work for reformation within the body of christ.[/quote:2b7nou33]
How would you answer it?[/quote:2b7nou33]
I have. I was involved with the Lefebvre movement, even a seminarian in their seminary. I left when it became clear that they were headed toward open schism. I still assist primarily at the Traditional Latin Mass, and the Eastern Catholic Liturgies, (I do not think the new rites are invalid, or wrong) but I could not go into schism because I thought I knew better than the Church Jesus promised He would not abandon.
I do understand that Lutherans, and others think they are a purified Church, and Catholic in the sense of being Christ’s universal Church. But I hold that union with Peter, as Christ’s vicar is part of what He intended.June 26, 2010 at 11:35 pm #9951AnonymousInactive"LARobert":1czmu4tj wrote:I do understand that Lutherans, and others think they are a purified Church,[/quote:1czmu4tj]
SO you say that everyones a sinner and that all need forgiveness and crap. well doesnt the sinfulness apply to everyone and not just protestants? how do you know that theyre purified? hmm? riddle me that tough guyJune 27, 2010 at 12:15 am #9952AnonymousInactive"Papa.Cod":1bpidei6 wrote:"LARobert":1bpidei6 wrote:I do understand that Lutherans, and others think they are a purified Church,[/quote:1bpidei6]
SO you say that everyones a sinner and that all need forgiveness and crap. well doesnt the sinfulness apply to everyone and not just protestants? how do you know that theyre purified? hmm? riddle me that tough guy[/quote:1bpidei6]
Once again Papa, you read into things what you want to. I have never said that only protestants are sinners. If Catholics were not sinners, there would be no need for baptism, or the Sacraments. Christ gave us the Sacraments, and works through them in order that we can avail ourselves to His grace.
Never claimed to be a tough guy, just a sinner who is in need of grace. Recognizing that Protestantims claims to be a group of sects that have each purified the Church and restored it to it’s primitive roots, is far more open minded than the accusations you seem to re-type from the sources you have read.
I became a Catholic after I heard from others and read the same distorted information that you use as your sources. It is how I can recognize the sad misinformation and vocabulary that you use. When I went to Catholic sources to check and see if what I was told and reading was true, I found that what I had been fed, was a gross misrepresentation of the Catholic Church. It may be a bit frightened to do it, but you may want to look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and read through it via the link on the other thread. The only way you will be able to see if the authors and teachers you have been accepting are telling you what the Catholic Church teaches is true is if you compair what they say to what the Catholic Church actually teaches. It will take courage, but I think you can muster it.
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