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is this true?
but the other reformers accused it as idolatry?
Dr. Luther did mainain a devotion to our Lady, and Churches he preached in initally kept a very Catholic look to them including crucifixes, and statues of our Lord, Lady and Biblical Saints.
no wonder when Pope Benedict visited a lutheran church in rome, the church building looked very catholic and even had a crucifix on its altar, interesting!!!
Ok. Wait a minute…a Lutheran church in Rome?!?! That really doesn’t make sense
and our lady? Crucifixes? what’s going on here?!?!
"Papa.Cod":1axll4qm wrote:Ok. Wait a minute…a Lutheran church in Rome?!?! That really doesn’t make sense and our lady? Crucifixes? what’s going on here?!?![/quote:1axll4qm]
Papa.Cod, let me explain a few things to you:
1) The Lutheran Church is catholic (catholic with a lower case c means universal) The Lutheran Church is not just limited to northern Germany or Scandinavia. Rather, it can be located anywhere. I remember seeing a LC-MS website in Japanese” title=”Razz” />
2) The part about the virgin Mary and the crucifixes will be explained later
3) please calm down. I know you don’t agree with what Catholics have to say about a lot of things, but it doesn’t hurt to listen. After all, you did join to learn, not insult."passionately_catholic":1axll4qm wrote:when Pope benedict visited a lutheran church in rome[/quote:1axll4qm]
Personally, I think it’s kinda cool that even Romans could enjoy a good Lutheran service” title=”Very Happy” />
"LARobert":1axll4qm wrote:Dr. Luther did mainain a devotion to our Lady, and Churches he preached in initally kept a very Catholic look to them including crucifixes, and statues of our Lord, Lady and Biblical Saints[/quote:1axll4qm]
You [u:1axll4qm]may[/u:1axll4qm] be right about a few things about this, but I would like to show you a different opinion.
1) A lot of Lutheran churches in Europe still kept that Catholic Church look (architecturally speaking.) When I was in Nürnberg (Nuremberg to English speakers) there was a Lutheran church in the middle of the city. I was told by my tour guide that most Catholic Churches in the north did convert to Lutheranism; Thus keeping their architecture the same.
2) The use of Crucifixes shouldn’t be a huge surprise. In the article [u:1axll4qm]Cross or Crucifix in Suffering[/u:1axll4qm], which is written by my Pastor, gives a good insight why Lutherans continue to use crucifixes as it is written in this article:
[i:1axll4qm]’Luther saw the crucifix as a natural and valuable symbol. he said, [b:1axll4qm]”I know for sure that God would have us hear and read His words, especially the suffering of Christ. But if I am to hear it or think about it, I cannot possibly do so without picturing it to myself in my heart. For whether I want it or not, the picture of a man hanging on a cross arises in my heart when I hear about Christ, just as water naturally reflects my face when I look into it. If, then, it is not sinful but good to have a picture of Christ in my heart, why should it be sinful to have it in my eyes?”‘[/b:1axll4qm][u:1axll4qm](What Luther Says,[/u:1axll4qm] I, p.180, CPH, 1959)[/i:1axll4qm]
3) About Biblical Saints…In the Augsburg Confession Article XXI, It discusses the Worshiping of the Saints. Don’t worry. I’m not accusing Catholics of Saint-Worshiping, but I would like to point out that in it, it discusses that it is ok that we look to them for examples of faith and good works, according to our calling.Sorry this is so long. Now I know how LARobert feels when he gets caught up in the moment of a good topic
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Thanks James:
It is also very hard to make a blanket statement regarding all Lutherans, Episcopalian/Anglicans/Methodists etc.
I have a friend from Childhood who is a Methodist. Inbetween ages 14 and 16 I would sometimes stay with him while my parents took a trip out of town. I went to the Methodist Church with them. (I was raised jewish, so I was not missing Mass.) The Church was constructed in a “typical ” Protestant style. Pulpit on a stage with choir behind the pulpit, table with four legs, and the words “Do this in Rememberence of Me” two urns with flowers and an open bible on it. When they had a communion service the minister and a married couple from the congregation would kneel in front of the table say the prayers for the communion service and then the little plastic cups with grape juice and squares of bread would be passed by the ushers to the people in the pews, who would serve themselves from the trays.
I visited him last year for a big wedding anniversary, the old Church was there, but is now a hall for banquets, tag sales etc. The new Church has a proper altar, with the pulpit off to the side, altar rail the Minister rather than wearing a suit, wears vestments purcahsed from a Catholic Liturgical goods dealer, they use a chalice, ciborium and hosts, I don’t know if they use wine or still use grape juice in the chalice, but the little plastic cups are gone. Everyone who went up for communion knelt at the communion rail. The Service was patterned after a Catholic Mass, and I’m told that while the sermon takes more precidence there than in a Catholic Church still, the Minister and acolytes are vested every Sunday, the Processional Cross and candles are used and the Curcifix in the Sanctuary that replaced the barren cross was a gift of my friend when his grand-daughter was baptized in the new Church. There are other Methodist Churches that retain the Pulpit as the focus model today.
There are Methodists who will say horrible things about Catholic Superstition, but there was also a Methodist Minister who wrote a book, “Five for Sorrow, Ten for Joy” on how the Rosary is Biblically sound, and all Protestants should pray it. He has quite a following among Methodists who now recite the Rosary.
There are some among our Protestant brothers who have investigated history and decided that there were areas where the Reformers went overboard, they see what the Early Church did, and said, and now confess that some of what they stipped away from the faithful was a knee jerk reaction. So too Some Catholic Theologians have realized that not everything Reformers said was heretical, or schismatic. It was sadly rejected along with those things that the Catholic Church does hold to be heretical. Both sides are guilty of tossing out the Baby with the Bathwater.
Now as a Catholic, having investigated the claims and doctrines of Buddhist, Protestant, Orthdox, and my own jewish heritage, I have found the fullness of the truth to reside only in the Catholic Church. However that does not mean that I can’t discuss the similarities and differences without trying to condemn someone for their beliefs.
"LARobert":1036bin6 wrote:Now as a Catholic, having investigated the claims and doctrines of Buddhist, Protestant, Orthdox, and my own jewish heritage, I have found the fullness of the truth to reside only in the Catholic Church.[/quote:1036bin6]
I know that I’m a minority on this website and what I’m about to say could cause mayhem, but I would like to say that in my Comparative Religions class I took at school were we studied about the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Confucianists, the Taoists, the Shintos, the Muslims, the Jews, the Orthodox Christians, The Catholics and the Protestants, I still found that Lutheranism is Truth and will always be Truth."LARobert":1036bin6 wrote:However that does not mean that I can’t discuss the similarities and differences without trying to condemn someone for their beliefs.[/quote:1036bin6]
It truly his hard for me to look at another faith (or religion for that matter) and say “You’re wrong and I’m right,” but that doesn’t mean that I disregard it altogether. I love learning about other’s thoughts, beliefs, and culture. That’s why I took that class. I knew that it will help me in my future and in my future career."LARobert":1036bin6 wrote:It is also very hard to make a blanket statement regarding all Lutherans, Episcopalian/Anglicans/Methodists etc[/quote:1036bin6]
And you’re right. It’s hard to say “this is what all Protestants believe in” because you really can’t label a single idea to all Protestant sects. For example, Lutherans have a unique way of explaining good and bad. We call it “Law and Gospel*.” Law meaning bad because we cannot follow God’s Law perfectly as he asks, and Gospel meaning good because through our Lord Jesus Christ are we saved by his Grace through Faith. I have not found any other sect that uses the concept of “Law and Gospel.”*Every time I see the words Law and Gospel together, I feel like watching an episode of Law and Order. I know. I’m strange
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"James":3t4ybevn wrote:I know that I’m a minority on this website and what I’m about to say could cause mayhem, but I would like to say that in my Comparative Religions class I took at school were we studied about the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Confucianists, the Taoists, the Shintos, the Muslims, the Jews, the Orthodox Christians, The Catholics and the Protestants, I still found that Lutheranism is Truth and will always be Truth.[/quote:3t4ybevn]
Well It’s not so much about who is in a minority of majority position here. What is important is that the truth be told. If you are a Lutheran by conviction, and come here both to learn what the Authentic Teachings of the Church are, and what the Catholic side of history is, that’s admirable, Even when you’ve asked a question or series of questions about Catholic Practice, Teaching or History when you’ve been told or read something that does not give a proper slant to it, you are willing to discuss or listen. You continue to visit and post even though you are not in full agreement with the teachings of Catholic Church. That as well as announcing the message of the Gospel is what I think Jon founded this site for. A place for people to come to learn “About Catholics”."James":3t4ybevn wrote:*Every time I see the words Law and Gospel together, I feel like watching an episode of Law and Order. I know. I’m strange” title=”Razz” />[/quote:3t4ybevn]
That’s OK every time I see windows EX PEE, (XP) I see Chi Rho, (the first two letters of the word Christos in Greek.
"Papa.Cod":1slou7cf wrote:Ok. Wait a minute…a Lutheran church in Rome?!?! That really doesn’t make sense and our lady? Crucifixes? what’s going on here?!?![/quote:1slou7cf]
are you lutheran? could you please tell us what non-catholic christian branch you belong to?
and what’s confusing with that? there’s also a mosque in rome, and also several non-catholic christian groups in rome and there’s also this iglesia ni cristo cult in rome…im confused at the fact that you’re confused with it
” title=”Cool” />
"passionately_catholic":3d5g67f3 wrote:"Papa.Cod":3d5g67f3 wrote:Ok. Wait a minute…a Lutheran church in Rome?!?! That really doesn’t make sense and our lady? Crucifixes? what’s going on here?!?![/quote:3d5g67f3]
are you lutheran? could you please tell us what non-catholic christian branch you belong to?
and what’s confusing with that? there’s also a mosque in rome, and also several non-catholic christian groups in rome and there’s also this iglesia ni cristo cult in rome…im confused at the fact that you’re confused with it
” title=”Cool” />[/quote:3d5g67f3]
Passionatly: You will learn that there are many Protestants (and poorly educated Catholics) Who really don’t know what the Protestant Reformers really did and Said. There are those in the “Evangelical/Pentecostal” groups who think that “That Old Time Religion” and the Religions of the Reformers looked just like the Churches they go to, with a minister in a suit, or even T-Shirt and Shorts, a choir behing the pulpit or a band with electric guitar on the stage. A “Message” of Trust Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and forget about the rest of what He taught about Baptism, and what St. Paul taught about “Running the Good Race” because those are Catholic Inventions. They truly believe the twisted history they have been taught. They think that the Pope is the Anti-Christ, and as Jack Chick comics tell them that there is a worldwide conspirasy to collect the names of all Protestants so the governments that are secretly controlled by the Jesuits, (who also control the Pope) Don’t ask me how the Anti-Christ can be controlled by the Jesuits, but most of what the conspirasy theories they believe don’t have to make sense. Because many are brainwashed to not read Catholic responses, you usually won’t find them reading links, and along with prayer, face to face discussion is usually the only way they will be exposed to what the Catholic Church really teaches, vs the falsified information they have been fed. Most of them give far more importance to Boettner and Hislop, (the two main sources of anti-catholic diatribes) than the Catholic Church gives to the Pope. While the Pope is held by Catholics to be fallible in day to day opinions, and only Infallible in very narrow and limited circumstances, anything Boettner and Hislop wrote is to them absolute, even when no-partisan sources prove them wrong.You may find this article amusing, but it does explain how these folk have been given a re-written concept of History and the Early Church. It is written by a former Protestant, who converted after he was exposed to real history….
[url:3d5g67f3]http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.4/coverstory.html[/url:3d5g67f3]
Here are a couple of articles that will also explain some of the flawed sources that they use or are taught from, and how deceptive they are.
[url:3d5g67f3]http://www.catholic.com/library/The_Anti_Catholic_Bible.asp[/url:3d5g67f3]
[url:3d5g67f3]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9301fea1.asp[/url:3d5g67f3][url:3d5g67f3]http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ct_babylon.html[/url:3d5g67f3]
I’m not lutheran, but James is. He just told me that I should join this website so I can get a better understanding of what your church says instead of just learning it through a book or something. I was confused because I thought rome is all Catholic.
And what’s so wrong with having an electric guitar in church?
"LARobert":30b1gpvv wrote:"passionately_catholic":30b1gpvv wrote:"Papa.Cod":30b1gpvv wrote:Ok. Wait a minute…a Lutheran church in Rome?!?! That really doesn’t make sense and our lady? Crucifixes? what’s going on here?!?![/quote:30b1gpvv]
are you lutheran? could you please tell us what non-catholic christian branch you belong to?
and what’s confusing with that? there’s also a mosque in rome, and also several non-catholic christian groups in rome and there’s also this iglesia ni cristo cult in rome…im confused at the fact that you’re confused with it
” title=”Cool” />[/quote:30b1gpvv]
Passionatly: You will learn that there are many Protestants (and poorly educated Catholics) Who really don’t know what the Protestant Reformers really did and Said. There are those in the “Evangelical/Pentecostal” groups who think that “That Old Time Religion” and the Religions of the Reformers looked just like the Churches they go to, with a minister in a suit, or even T-Shirt and Shorts, a choir behing the pulpit or a band with electric guitar on the stage. A “Message” of Trust Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and forget about the rest of what He taught about Baptism, and what St. Paul taught about “Running the Good Race” because those are Catholic Inventions. They truly believe the twisted history they have been taught. They think that the Pope is the Anti-Christ, and as Jack Chick comics tell them that there is a worldwide conspirasy to collect the names of all Protestants so the governments that are secretly controlled by the Jesuits, (who also control the Pope) Don’t ask me how the Anti-Christ can be controlled by the Jesuits, but most of what the conspirasy theories they believe don’t have to make sense. Because many are brainwashed to not read Catholic responses, you usually won’t find them reading links, and along with prayer, face to face discussion is usually the only way they will be exposed to what the Catholic Church really teaches, vs the falsified information they have been fed. Most of them give far more importance to Boettner and Hislop, (the two main sources of anti-catholic diatribes) than the Catholic Church gives to the Pope. While the Pope is held by Catholics to be fallible in day to day opinions, and only Infallible in very narrow and limited circumstances, anything Boettner and Hislop wrote is to them absolute, even when no-partisan sources prove them wrong.You may find this article amusing, but it does explain how these folk have been given a re-written concept of History and the Early Church. It is written by a former Protestant, who converted after he was exposed to real history….
[url:30b1gpvv]http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.4/coverstory.html[/url:30b1gpvv]
Here are a couple of articles that will also explain some of the flawed sources that they use or are taught from, and how deceptive they are.
[url:30b1gpvv]http://www.catholic.com/library/The_Anti_Catholic_Bible.asp[/url:30b1gpvv]
[url:30b1gpvv]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9301fea1.asp[/url:30b1gpvv][url:30b1gpvv]http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ct_babylon.html[/url:30b1gpvv][/quote:30b1gpvv]
reminds me of the thread in catholic.com entitled “what’s the funniest anti-catholic whopper you’ve heard?”” title=”Wink” />
"Papa.Cod":39jrkch0 wrote:I’m not lutheran, but James is. He just told me that I should join this website so I can get a better understanding of what your church says instead of just learning it through a book or something. I was confused because I thought rome is all Catholic.[/quote:39jrkch0]
nope, rome is not all catholic” title=”Wink” />
"Papa.Cod":39jrkch0 wrote:And what’s so wrong with having an electric guitar in church?[/quote:39jrkch0]
nothing wrong with that i think
"Papa.Cod":2ios7x2d wrote:I’m not lutheran, but James is. He just told me that I should join this website so I can get a better understanding of what your church says instead of just learning it through a book or something. I was confused because I thought rome is all Catholic.And what’s so wrong with having an electric guitar in church?[/quote:2ios7x2d]
Rome is a City, inside of the boundries of Rome on Vatican Hill, (Not by the way one of the Seven Hills of Ancient Rome) taking up about four acres of realestate. Independent, and surrounded by a country that at times has been more anti-catholic than Calvin’s Geneva. There have been Princes, Duces, and Communist leaders in Italy who have tried their best to rid the country of Catholics.The point, missed by your reading is not electric guitars, but where they are placed. Many Protestant Churches have a stage with music and the sermon as a form of entertainment, rather than God as the central point. I’ve been to many a “Revival” where the draw was the Band, and not the message.
If you read the writings of the Early Christians, the Eucharist, was the central focus, not the band. Hymns were sung, and sermons were preached yes, but they all pointed to the central focus of what Jesus gave us at Calvary, Himself. No Altar Calls, no Soloists, no Bible Only, Sinner’s prayer or Once Saved always saved. Nope the Apostles would not recognize that as anything the Jesus taught.
"LARobert":fcaffos4 wrote:The point, missed by your reading is not electric guitars, but where they are placed. Many Protestant Churches have a stage with music and the sermon as a form of entertainment, rather than God as the central point. I’ve been to many a “Revival” where the draw was the Band, and not the message.[/quote:fcaffos4]
I remember many Sundays ago I was at Bible study after church and we were reading the chapters of 1 Corinthians when somehow we got on the topic of services in churches.Most of the “Evangelical Protestant Churches” like some Baptist denominations and other obscure, more liberal Protestant Churches tend to have the proclamation of the Gospel and a rather contemporary pallet of music. To me, it seems like nothing but entertainment and excitement for everyone. I personally find them scary since Lutherans are liturgical and not very “exciting” people
” title=”Razz” /> But back to my point….Most churches that focus only on the good and the exciting are in for a huge surprise when a disaster hits. In our Bible Study class, the example Pastor used was the attacks on 9/11. This was a time where just about everybody was paranoid and scared. While the liturgical churches (such as the Lutherans, the Catholics, the Episcopalians, etc) are prepared for these kind of situations, these other denominations had no clue how to react. They actually had to go up to the Catholics or another liturgical church and ask ‘how do we handle this? what are we supposed to do.’Entertainment outside the Church is fine, but when you incorporate entertainment into the service and into the sermon, you distract everyone from the main point. I’m not saying music shouldn’t be allowed in Church. What I’m saying is that hymns, the service, etc. should be Christ centered. I personally am not in favor of an electric guitar in church. Then again, I do believe that the Organ is the “King of the Instruments.”
sir james, i think yer inbox is full
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"passionately_catholic":1wd6yoba wrote:sir james, i think yer inbox is full” title=”Wink” />[/quote:1wd6yoba]
I’m sorry about that. It is now fixed” title=”Smile” />
wait…we get e-mail on this website too? awesome!
"Papa.Cod":2jsig7fn wrote:wait…we get e-mail on this website too? awesome![/quote:2jsig7fn]
we just exchanged PMs” title=”Very Happy” />
"passionately_catholic":1kidov1z wrote:we just exchanged PMs” title=”Very Happy” />[/quote:1kidov1z]
Oh that’s right Lol sorry about that” title=”Razz” />
and our lady? Crucifixes? what’s going on here?!?!
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” title=”Very Happy” />
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