Helllllooooo…… Victorrrrrrrr

don’t you want to do as you said? [quote:ftw9n27k]
First you have misunderstood the accoplishments of Calvary as understood by us. How works are savific. How grace works. The list can go on and on. Nonetheless, if you have the desire and patience we can tackle every one slowly and clearly without being on attack mode. [/quote:ftw9n27k]

Then why the Silence about my question?

Victor said:

[quote:26hzwai8]Because it’s obvious to me that you are here to win debates and not understand in a charitable manner. Until that changes, I running on fumes and need to pray for an extra outpouring of patience at the moment. Besides, what you are asking is a monster of a topic and encompasses many areas that surpass the title of this thread. This is about salvation. If you want to start a Salvation part or another topic. Please do so.[/quote:26hzwai8]

Salvation is the topic? Fine now I know I have the right thread so I again ask the question –
Where in the Bible do you get the Idea that Jesus gave us the sacraments to cleanse oneself of sin as in what I said earlier – the Catholic gets justified at Baptism, re-justified at a priestly confession (repeated over and over,) at the last rites and finally purgatory, thus they can “merit” salvation? This is NOT the Gospel of Grace. Take your time Victor but don’t just ignore this.

Te Deum: You wrote:

---

[quote:l3g30w6b]All the seven sacraments can be found both in the Holy Bible and the Holy Tradition.

1. Baptism (the Baptism at the Jordan, Jesus commanded the Apostles to “go and baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”, etc), 2. Eucharist or Communion (from the Last Supper – “This is My Body, this is My Blood”), 3. Confirmation (the gift of the Holy Spirit that descended upon the Apostles at the Pentecostes), 4. Ordination (The succesion of the Apostles – upon whom Christ built His Church – evident throughout the early Church’s history), 5. Penance (Christ Himself delegated that power on the Apostles), 6. Anointing of the Sick (James 5:14-15) and 7. Matrimony (second chapter of Genesis and Matthew 19:4-6). [/quote:l3g30w6b]

I’ve never met you before but I can undoubtingly see that you’ve been
decieved BIG TIME!!!

To begin with your remark about the seven sacraments being in the Bible.
Jesus gave us two – Baptism and Communion
The rest are sacraments to you and your church but they never were called sacraments in the Bible.
1 Baptism doesn’t save anyone
2 communion is done in remembrance of Calvary – no real presence as you may think
3 Confirmation – ?
4 ordination – No such thing as Apostolic succession
5 Penance – for what? Jesus took care of my sins with His death – your priest cannot remove any sin!
6 Anointing of the Sick – okay but what part is to be called a sacrament?
7 Matrimony – again I ask why is this a sacrament?

You also wrote:
[quote:l3g30w6b]Finally, always keep in mind that the recipient of the Faith is fully found in the Church, encompassing Scripture and Tradition. Apostolic succession is the key to understand the legitimacy of the Church and of orthodoxy and it was the tool used by the Church Fathers to discern what would be canonical scripture and what wouldn’t. The standard has always been the Faith of the Apostles, who lived with and died for Christ. That same Faith that they passed on by to their successors ininterruptedly until our days.

Scripture alone doesn’t work, because there was already the Church before the Scripture. Likewise, that same Scripture was gathered and preserved by that same Church, the Catholic Church. [/quote:l3g30w6b]

Apostolic succession? Can’t be because your church (Catholicism) do a lot of things that the apostles never did nor teach and BTW- as far as the Scriptures – they are sufficient and complete and they do work very nicely. What is it that Scriptures don’t take care of??? AND Scriptures were around before the Church, The Old Testament for example. And furthermore God is the author of Scriptures through inspiration of men – not by your Catholic Church!

Ron

Te Deum says:
[quote:3kqqy6mm] And that’s a quite charming introdutory remark, Ron. I’m glad to meet you too. [/quote:3kqqy6mm]
Okay you got me there, so here is an extra [color=red:3kqqy6mm]”Hello” to you.[/color:3kqqy6mm][quote:3kqqy6mm]
Let me remind you again that the entity responsible for conveying you and everyone else the Bible has been the Church. It was the Church through the Holy Spirit that decided what was fitting to be Holy Scripture (New Testament) and what wasn’t, confronting them with Holy Tradition, the Faith handed down by the Apostles. Luther couldn’t have done it by himself in the 16th Century, so he just decided without the Holy Spirit what would be the Protestant canon from amongst the books that the Catholic Church and the Holy Spirit had perserved from the very begining.[/quote:3kqqy6mm]
No way, that may be as you and your Church believe and teach but That doesn’t make it truth. I just did a study on the Apocrypha that reveals much about your “history” at http://www.studytoanswer.net/rcc/rvb_ap … html#intro
good stuff!!!

[quote:3kqqy6mm]I’m just wondering here, does your Church even abide to the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed? Because, if it does, the Church’s belief on the validity of baptism for the remission of sins is there plainly stated for anyone who reads or utters it. If it doesn’t abide to it, it isn’t a Christian Church anyway[/quote:3kqqy6mm].

Lets put this in the proper setting THE Church is NOT Your church – The Church consists of only believers in Jesus Christ and[u:3kqqy6mm][b:3kqqy6mm] your statement above has no baring upon this Fact[/b:3kqqy6mm][/u:3kqqy6mm]

[quote:3kqqy6mm]It’s not just me who believes in it. Christ said it so. The Apostles and the Church Fathers believed in it and so it has been kept for the last 2000 years in the Catholic Churc (and Orthodox as well). [/quote:3kqqy6mm]
all your efforts to get me to believe this are useless – I can read Scriptures and Jesus nor the Disciples ever believed that – here is my view
on this – http://www.angelfire.com/crazy3/glm/article3.shtml

[quote:3kqqy6mm]If you don’t know what Confirmation is, I’ll clear it up for you: it is the gift of the Holy Spirit passed on to the baptized believer through the bishop. It is traced to the day of Pentecost. I’m sure you know what that day is, right? [/quote:3kqqy6mm]
Yes I know, I just didn’t have any comments to make about Confirmation although I don’t buy your explanation

[quote:3kqqy6mm]Please, at least study some Church history before saying such nonsense[/quote:3kqqy6mm]
Have you ever read Dave Hunt’s Book – [b:3kqqy6mm][i:3kqqy6mm]”The Woman Rides the Beast?”[/i:3kqqy6mm][/b:3kqqy6mm] Some good enlightening material in there

[quote:3kqqy6mm]
It’s not the priest who removes or forgives the sin. It is Christ, ever present in the Church. The priest is His instrument. Also, you should’ve read those verses I posted about this one where Christ empowers the Apostles with the authority to forgive sins. [/quote:3kqqy6mm]
I am well aware of your mistranslated interpretation of John 20:23 and this is my view on that –
[color=darkred:3kqqy6mm][b:3kqqy6mm][i:3kqqy6mm]1) – John 20:23 – “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” Based upon this statement, along with the “binding and loosing” given in Matthew 18, we see the misconception among those who claim their priest or pastor is able to forgive those that come to him. However, using the complete Bible to let Scripture interpret itself, we find that only God can forgive sins, as even the Pharisees knew this (Mark 2:7). And our sins are or aren’t forgiven based upon John 3:36 – “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” So the disciples, having spent three years learning from Jesus, they knew His ways, could now preach and teach to others. As other people heard and believed, they were saved (Ephesians 1:13,14). The disciples could tell if anyone was or wasn’t a follower based upon what that individual beliefs were by what they did and said, “… for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. ….. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned” (Matthew 12:34-37). Thus, the disciples could inform others of whether or not their sins were forgiven based upon whether or not they were believers. One more point here to realize God is in control, not man. For man to have the power to forgive sins, then God would be under man’s control[/i:3kqqy6mm][/b:3kqqy6mm][/color:3kqqy6mm]

[quote:3kqqy6mm]
It is a sacrament because it conveys God’s grace. There have been some cases where the Anointing has physically cured some ill people, but its primary goal is to better prepare the soul to meet God. That’s why it’s also called Extreme Unction. [/quote:3kqqy6mm]

Convey grace??? That is an oxymoron per Romans 11:6 And I doubt that it in anyway helps prepare anyone’s soul for meeting God
[quote:3kqqy6mm]
What about the New? Who was responsible for discerning between canonical and non-canonical texts and preserving them? I’ll let you guess that one[/quote:3kqqy6mm]

The Holy Spirit choose the disciplles and guided them to write – these were being read in Churchs long before your Church decided anything – read the article I gave above (The Apocrypha) for more insights

[quote:3kqqy6mm]The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit as Christ promised. Don’t you believe His promises?[/quote:3kqqy6mm]
Of course I do – That’s why I left the Catholic Church – they do not follow Jesus but teach a false Gospel of meriting one’s salvation through works and Sacraments – none of hich takes away the sins of mankind..

[color=darkred:3kqqy6mm][b:3kqqy6mm]Only by Faith in what Jesus did for my sins at Calvary can my sins be taken away[/b:3kqqy6mm][/color:3kqqy6mm]

Ron, I can see where you are coming from and I really don’t have or the time or the patience to fuel these arguments that lead absolutely nowhere. Unfortunately, you have a strongly biased view against the Church and that’s too bad. I don’t want to sound repetitive or unfair, but this anti-catholic belief is what makes up for protestant unity.

[quote:d5bf9z2t] No way, that may be as you and your Church believe and teach but That doesn’t make it truth. I just did a study on the Apocrypha that reveals much about your “history” at http://www.studytoanswer.net/rcc/rvb_ap … html#intro
good stuff!!![/quote:d5bf9z2t]

Study on the Apocrypha? They are called apocrypha for a reason: they have a disputed canonical status, thus not being reliable enough to be included into biblical canon. Some of them are considered deuterocanonical (second canon) and are used as an example of life and instruction of manners, but aren’t applied to establish doctrine. The faith handed down by the Apostles was the standard to be guided through and that was what ultimately decided the biblical canon. Luther, certainly felt more inspired than the Church Fathers and decided a canon on his own. You talk about history, so what about a study on early Christian history, on the Apostles, the Martyrs and the Church Fathers? That could seriously help you to get out of those misconceptions. Christ prayed that we may all be one – are the hundreds of protestant denominations one? Are they the Apostles’ Church, the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church?

[quote:d5bf9z2t]Lets put this in the proper setting THE Church is NOT Your church – The Church consists of only believers in Jesus Christ and your statement above has no baring upon this Fact[/quote:d5bf9z2t]

You don’t need to yell to make a point. However, I see that you don’t abide to the Creed, so no further discussion is needed.

[quote:d5bf9z2t]Have you ever read Dave Hunt’s Book – [b:d5bf9z2t][i:d5bf9z2t]”The Woman Rides the Beast?”[/i:d5bf9z2t][/b:d5bf9z2t] Some good enlightening material in there [/quote:d5bf9z2t]

Enlightening, indeed. Next thing you know, you’ll be recomending me to read books like the Da Vinci Code to learn about Church history! Instead, try reading [b:d5bf9z2t]A Biblical Defense Of Catholicism[/b:d5bf9z2t] or [b:d5bf9z2t]The Catholic Verses: 95 Bible Passages That Confound Protestants[/b:d5bf9z2t], both by Dave Armstrong – a former protestant campus missionary that came back to the Catholic Church.

[quote:d5bf9z2t] One more point here to realize God is in control, not man. For man to have the power to forgive sins, then God would be under man’s control[/quote:d5bf9z2t]

Which part of [i:d5bf9z2t]¬´It is Christ who forgives the sins, not the priest¬ª[/i:d5bf9z2t] that you didn’t understand? The sacraments are all ministered by God through the clergy (priests and bishops), regardless of their morals or conditions. The believer is always granted the grace of the sacrament. [i:d5bf9z2t]¬´Ex opere operato¬ª[/i:d5bf9z2t], because the Holy Spirit is active in the Church.

[quote:d5bf9z2t]Of course I do – That’s why I left the Catholic Church – they do not follow Jesus but teach a false Gospel of meriting one’s salvation through works and Sacraments – none of hich takes away the sins of mankind…[/quote:d5bf9z2t]

I’m sorry to be a little disrespectful here but that’s just that old plain prottie garbage again.

Period.

I read your article Ron Kempen. I agree with your point “His Church are those who have placed their faith in His finished work done at Calvary for their sins,”

This is true.

A problem is what you say here: “However show me where in Scripture does it have the many unbiblical practices of this particular church? You won’t find the apostles doing any of their unbiblical “traditions.”

I’ve got one , the Trinity. None of the Apostles mention it or even hint at any understanding of a triune theology as the Church teaches hundreds of years after Peter, Paul, John, etc… Why do we not give up this “tradition”? Because it would lead us to loose faith with the Bride of Christ – Protestant of Catholic.

Another problem: “by using the Bible, without twisting Scriptures, nowhere can one find this denomination’s many teachings and traditions that go against God’s Word.”

Go against God’s word? This offends me as a non-Catholic!!! I find nothing in Catholic teachings that go AGAINST Scripture. Many things in established practice in Protestant denominations are not found in Scripture. Are guitars in the Bible? They weren’t used by Jews or Greeks so why do we allow them in the Church? Clearly, this kind of understanding of Scripture interpretation leaves the doors of rationality wide open for all forms of wild accusations. Paul taught women to cover their heads but nearly all Christians don’t do this. Why? Because we understand Paul to be intending many different things, in a specific cultural context, etc. etc…

Chrisitans teachings and traditions rarely go against God’s Word. As Christians we trust tradition as we believe it was infused with the Holy Spirit’s power, such as the Councils deciding creeds, early writers establishing sound doctrine, etc.

Sacraments are examples and modes of grace. Call it what one wishes, Baptism and the Communion are sacraments (and maybe others ” title=”Very Happy” /> )

I agree with parts of your sixth claim, but this needs more solid

“neither verse mentions Roman Catholicism as His Church.” Lol, of course not, wouldn’t any Catholic agree? Catholicism was never under the sole leadership of Rome until they agreed to let it, which of course came hundreds of years after Christ. Rome was a great example of leadership and overall Christian charity hundreds of years before Rome became the center of Christianity.

One major thing comes to my mind reading your article, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

“They may be the biggest,” Well, actually not any more. Protestantism is far larger and Pentecostalism (suprisingly) may be the fastest growing and perhaps the largest denomination in terms of attendance.

“many of the “traditions” of today’s Roman Catholic Church actually came into practice in the 4th century when Constantine declared Christianity to be acceptable. This is precisely when many of their unbiblical practices crept into their teachings that we now see, eventually setting up the need for the reformation.”

The Roman Catholic Church did not invent any traditions. They may have been stretched at times, or taken from different sources. If they “actually came into practice in the 4th century” then doesn’t that imply that they were established and taught before they were practiced? All things practiced in religion have always been used before being publicly declared out for everyone to do.

What are some of the Roman Catholics “unbiblical practices?”

Your testimony is very sad and unfortunate, it must have been incredibly hard. New wife, new life, everything is very different for you after you left the Catholic Church. Do you really think all Catholics are lost?

My name is not Beasley-Murray, that is the author I quoted for that quote. I’m not Catholic either, in fact I’m Protestant and I thought me saying “that offends me as a non-Catholic” was obvious enough :rolleyes:

You were “saved” from Catholicism right? I think you were saved period, not from Catholicism but Christ met you in your life and saved you, and it was no fault of Catholicism. Your personal life as I understand it was in the pits and Christ saved you like he saves many others. You chose to blame your past failures on a particular denomination that you feel hurt you.

Of course their is the Trinity! I was merely giving you an example of doctrine that is not explicitly in the Bible. We make theological and intelligent constructs to understand God. Why? because God chose to give us intelligent minds to understand such things. The Trinity is true. How do we continue to believe it? Because our Early Fathers designated it as a Truth that cannot be denied by anyone who is a member of the Church of Christ.

[quote:2pfvbwwi]Many things in established practice in Protestant denominations are not found in Scripture[/quote:2pfvbwwi]

[quote:2pfvbwwi]I have no doubt about that either because there are many different Protestants but using a guitar for an example is a rather poor choice. There are old Testament examples of string instruments being used, so what is the problem? [/quote:2pfvbwwi]

So Protestants with non-explicit biblical teaching is ok, but Catholic ones are wrong? Actually the example of the guitar is quite simplistic, overly simplistic but you did not catch the point. We do many things in our lives as we worship God that the early Christians never did. Are we practicing non-biblical modes of worship? Oh, yes, there’s stringed instruments being used in the OT but were they used in the Temple? Also, is there any evidence of instruments being used in the Temple that we can find? No. Does this mean we can’t use them? No. I chose the simplest example I could think of to contrast the non-explicit teaching of the Trinity.

You claim to submit only to “His written word.” Is this a fact? Why do you go to Church on Sunday’s? Is it written that you must go to a church service every Sunday? Do you participate in the Holy Communion? If so, why not do it every time you meet with fellow believers as the early Christians of Acts did? Do you believe in baptism as a remission of sins? If not then how do you explain the theme of baptism in Acts, or again, if you do believe it as a remission of sins how does one explain the teachings of Paul about confessing Christ as the only requirement? The list goes on of things that we all do that are not found explicitly in Scripture, and things that we cannot fully comprehend.

[quote:2pfvbwwi]The Bible says that there is only one way to Salvation and that I put on my last post – what are you trusting in to remove your sins? Sacraments ? Works? or your ability to live righteous enough to merit Salvation? If all Catholics believe the way Roman Catholicism teaches, then those are lightly not to be saved.
[/quote:2pfvbwwi]

Ron, have you ever thought of the millions or billions of people that never heard of Jesus Christ? How does God reach them? Rom 1:20

You’re right Ron, Sacraments and works do not save, was I suggesting this at all? Would any Catholic?

Maybe you found the right path for you, worshipping God in a Protestant Church. It seems your life was so dark in Catholicim that to remain there may be a burden for your spiritual walk with the Lord and so he graciously provided another way to find Him because He knew it would be difficult for you to remain Catholic. This is not the fault of Catholicism or any other. But to write articles against another Christian fellowship is just wrong. It hurts me to see your comments against other Christians who profess Christ as their savior, because they are of the same denomination that you hold bad memories of. Don’t let the fire in your spirit consume you and misguide you. Some day you will understand theology and doctrine to a larger extent and you’ll wish you never crusaded against your Christian brothers because you could not relate to them. Go to a theological school and pour your passion into reading up on Christian theology and then see if your still so sure about what you claim. May God help you on your quest to find truth.

LOL

You crack me up Ron, I think I was too serious with you and now I’ve shot myself in the foot

Have you ever done any Christian History reading? Have you ever read any Creeds? Have you ever ______?

” title=”Confused” /> your lack of research combined with your zealous attitude towards converting Catholics is embarassing to all critical and even open Protestant Christians.

I like this one :rolleyes:

[quote:36rkpl0l]Why compromise with them? They have a different, non-saving gospel, call it as it is!”[/quote:36rkpl0l]

This is an oxymoron. A non-saving Gospel cannot exist

hate to break it to you but Sunday worship is merely tradition, Acts’ sabbath is our saturday according to our calender.

In my opinion, attacking those who affirm the Trinity, the Divinity of Christ, the salvation through Christ alone, etc. IS attacking them. Your fighting against God my friend, just because Catholics are different than your church now doesn’t make them your enemy (unless you make it so).

lol. I have been arguing with Catholics about a number of things here but now I’m defending them! lol, you crack me up Ron, thanks!

[color=darkblue:10ezjbje]Good Luck gesundheit. I had told Ron in the past that not even open charitable Protestants would take him serious. But he just won’t listen.[/color:10ezjbje]