Other views on salvation

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  • #6321
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I just can’t get enough of you Ron, I’m in a joking mood today <img loading=” title=”Razz” />

    a non-Gospel is different than “another Gospel”. A non-Gospel= no Gospel, why dont’ you understand this?

    [quote:1fpgj9gy]I’ve read enough, been around enough to know how to discern this issue.[/quote:1fpgj9gy]

    :!: so wisdom and knowledge all come from the root of age? If you know nothing about any of the councils, creeds, history, etc, you have no foundation; your building your “mission” on the sand.

    [quote:1fpgj9gy]another slanted opinion! Catholics know historically that Jesus died for them but then tell us how to merit salvation thruogh Sacraments and good works, purgatory, prayers to Mary – all unbiblical- that is a false gospel my friend…[/quote:1fpgj9gy]

    1. If Catholics know that Jesus died for them then why do they not receive salvation?
    2. Catholic doctrine does not teach that sacraments, good works, purgatory, prayers to Mary merit salvation. You interpreted this from your understanding of Catholicism or maybe a movie or something…
    3. do you know what purgatory is? Catholics and Protestants who believe in purgatory (yes, many Protestants believe in it, notable theologians at that) do not believe it “merits” salvation.
    4. Prayers to Mary? They do it because they honour her, not that they think by praying to her they’ll be saved.
    5. false Gospel. There, now you use the negative form of the Gospel in the correct formula. There can be no “non-Gospel” only a false or another one… :!: you quoted 2 Cor correctly, problem is you didn’t even bother to read what it said. [I’m going crazy here!]

    [quote:1fpgj9gy]Have you ever read Scriptures? What day is this? – Acts 20:7 – And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.[/quote:1fpgj9gy]

    Sunday was not originally the day of worshipping God for Theists. Jews worshipped (and continue so) on Saturday. There’s a lot of confusion about the “first day of the week” in Acts, was it Saturday or Sunday for the Apostles?

    [quote:1fpgj9gy]Again thanks for your well meaning opinion, but errors don’t help me![/quote:1fpgj9gy]

    It’s simply true that unless one studies the Scriptures with a solid understanding and background in theology and biblical studies and languages he or she will find it hard to relate to another’s interpretation of Scripture or experience of it.

    I’m going to pray now. <img loading=” title=”Wink” />

    #6322
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    gesundheit says:

    [quote:395v0sy0]1. If Catholics know that Jesus died for them then why do they not receive salvation?
    2. Catholic doctrine does not teach that sacraments, good works, purgatory, prayers to Mary merit salvation. You interpreted this from your understanding of Catholicism or maybe a movie or something…
    3. do you know what purgatory is? Catholics and Protestants who believe in purgatory (yes, many Protestants believe in it, notable theologians at that) do not believe it “merits” salvation.
    4. Prayers to Mary? They do it because they honour her, not that they think by praying to her they’ll be saved.
    5. false Gospel. There, now you use the negative form of the Gospel in the correct formula. There can be no “non-Gospel” only a false or another one… you quoted 2 Cor correctly, problem is you didn’t even bother to read what it said. [I’m going crazy here!] [/quote:395v0sy0]

    1 – Knowing it and believing it are two different points. Why do they reject it? Good question but if they accepted it then they couldn’t accept Purgatory (where they claim they get Purified) Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus did that.
    2 – Obviously you don’t know Catholicism very well
    3 – see #1
    4 – why they claim is unimportant, Scriptures tell us not to pray to the dead. Hebrews 4:16 says we can boldly approach the thone – why go to a human that cannot do what God does?
    5 – there is one gospel that saves and it isn’t in Catholicism friend

    I John 1:6 – [color=darkred:395v0sy0][b:395v0sy0]If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:[/b:395v0sy0][/color:395v0sy0]

    #6334
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    :shock:
    1 Cor 15:29
    -baptizing the dead? What the….
    :shock:

    I love that emoticon

    [quote:14b306ja]obviously you don’t know Catholicism very well[/quote:14b306ja]

    True. But I know enough that any Catholic or Protestant that truly believes in the Messiah Jesus Christ will be saved. Oddly… Catholics believe this… oh no! :shock:

    shoot I’m not living my quote. Sorry Ron, I’ve had fun but enough is enough.

    #6335
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    YOU SAY:

    [quote:2hag9by2]True. But I know enough that any Catholic or Protestant that truly believes in the Messiah Jesus Christ will be saved. [/quote:2hag9by2]

    That is true but like me, then they wouldn’t be a Catholic anymore either :lol:

    #6348
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:1sq7h1cm]2 – Obviously you don’t know Catholicism very well[/quote:1sq7h1cm]

    [color=darkblue:1sq7h1cm]You’re one of the last persons that should be saying that. You have not shown to come to understand Catholicism.[/color:1sq7h1cm]

    #6350
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Again I say Hello Victor <img loading=” title=”Very Happy” />

    You wrote:
    [quote:ozj8tl8i]You’re one of the last persons that should be saying that. You have not shown to come to understand Catholicism[/quote:ozj8tl8i]

    But you are very wrong, I understand it better that you do and how
    wrong it is.

    You don’t accept what Jesus did and His imputed righteousness to you account. Instead you feel that you need to show God that you are somehow righteous on your merits….. That’s why you believe in a so called place Like Purgatory – so you can be righteous. But it isn’t that way my friend. Look at Hebrews 1:3 Jesus “after having purged us of sin”
    Purged who? Believers what He did by His death at Calvary.

    Any other questions?

    #6351
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [color=darkblue:3swwifhk]I should have known better then to address your post.[/color:3swwifhk]

    #6353
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Ron,

    For someone who understands “better than you do….” concerning Catholicism, you sure manage to get wrong one of the fundemental ideas of Justification according to Catholic theology.

    You wrote:

    [quote:19e0ogcb]Instead you feel that you need to show God that you are somehow righteous on your merits….. [/quote:19e0ogcb]

    If you were to look in the Catechism in the section dealing with grace and justification, you’ll read under “Merit” the following paragraphs:

    [quote:19e0ogcb][b:19e0ogcb]2006 The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

    2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator. [/b:19e0ogcb][/quote:19e0ogcb]

    Let me juust quote paragraph 2007 again for emphasis: [b:19e0ogcb]With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator. [/b:19e0ogcb]

    NOTHING we do can cross the huge chasm that exist between God and his righteousness and us, OUTSIDE of God Himself moving us to do so and giving us the grace necessary to work WITH him to that end.

    Paragraph 2011 of the Catechism puts it nicely, and also adds a quote from St. Th?©r?®se of Lisieux further illustrating it’s effect in our lives:

    [quote:19e0ogcb]2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

    [i:19e0ogcb]After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself[/i:19e0ogcb].[/quote:19e0ogcb]

    This stuff is Catholicism 101 here – there’s no way anyone can claim to ‘understand better’ than anyone else concerning what the Catholic Church teaches if they don’t know these rudimentary things. Justification/Grace/Merit/etc/etc are all very in-depth topics and there is definitely more to be said concerning them, but the idea of a Catholic believing they can “work” their way to heaven on their own merit is just plain heretical and belies a serious defect in understanding on the part of anyone (that would be non-Catholics, in this case) that would suggest that Catholics believe such a thing.

    #6363
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Accipio: you said:
    [quote:3egutarg]
    For someone who understands “better than you do….” concerning Catholicism, you sure manage to get wrong one of the fundemental ideas of Justification according to Catholic theology[/quote:3egutarg].

    You may have the “official” teachings, for I’ve seen plenty of “both ways”
    talk from your church. Most Catholics don’t even know what the “official”
    teachings are from day to day. Your Catechism has the following in it:
    [b:3egutarg]2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. [/b:3egutarg]
    Bottom line is that they still think that “we are judged base on how good we are” and no matter what the “official” teaching such as you write:
    [quote:3egutarg]
    NOTHING we do can cross the huge chasm that exist between God and his righteousness and us, OUTSIDE of God Himself moving us to do so and giving us the grace necessary to work WITH him to that end. [/quote:3egutarg]

    would change their thinking.
    [quote:3egutarg]
    but the idea of a Catholic believing they can “work” their way to heaven on their own merit is just plain heretical and belies a serious defect in understanding on the part of anyone (that would be non-Catholics, in this case) that would suggest that Catholics believe such a thing.[/quote:3egutarg]

    Actions speak louder then words. – You go to a priest to recieve confession – and then do penances – all with the idea of removing sin at that point, your church teaches of a place called Purgatory – again to have sins removed so as to gain entrance into Heaven thinking that you would now be righteous enough. But you fall to place your faith in what Jesus did 2000 years ago to remove sins.

    I think I make myself clear, don’t you?

    #6366
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Ron,

    To start from the bottom of your post – what I think is made clear is that you don’t even believe the Church when it says what it believes. You say:

    [quote:3vzfdx3u]”You may have the “official” teachings, for I’ve seen plenty of “both ways” talk from your church……….Bottom line is that they still think that “we are judged base on how good we are” and no matter what the “official” teaching”[/quote:3vzfdx3u]

    In other words, you think that the Church teaches XYZ but they don’t really teach XYZ *wink wink, nudge nudge*. To make the case for what the Church teaches (and has always taught) concerning merit even more clear, here’s a few snippets from the Catholic past –

    Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, [i:3vzfdx3u]for it is God who works in you[/i:3vzfdx3u] to will and to act according to his good purpose.

    2nd Council of Orange 529 A.D. Canon 20: That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.

    Augustine (as quoted in the Catechism): “What merit of man is there before grace by which he can achieve grace, as only grace works every one of our good merits in us, and as God, when He crowns our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts?”

    Council of Trent – Decree on Justification, Chapter 5: The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, [b:3vzfdx3u]without any merits existing on their parts[/b:3vzfdx3u], they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification,[i:3vzfdx3u] by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace[/i:3vzfdx3u]: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.

    Council of Trent – Canons on Justification, Canon 1: If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

    Now, you who are not Catholic will tell me that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe these things laid out above? They’ve just been thrown in the various dogmatic decrees here and there to “keep up appearances” or something? For shame, if you truely believe such a thing. This IS what the Catholic Church believes (above), no Catholic is free to deviate from such things. Neither are you justified in telling me or anyone that “oh they don’t really teach THAT!” or anything similar, which you’ve done here. Honesty when dealing with people of faith that differs from one’s own is integral in fostering mutual respect and understanding between such groups – misrepresenting one another (such that has been done for hundreds of years now, on both sides of the fence, Protestant and Catholic) does absolutely nothing to reach for that high mark that Jesus set for us when he prayed “That they all may be one”(John 17:21). Speaking of that verse, it is the title of one of Pope John Paul II’s greatest Encyclicals (Ut Unum Sint, written in 1995). Even tho you are of course very far from the Catholic Church, perhaps you might deign to accept a few words of wisdom from JP2 taken from the above Encyclical, when he writes:

    [quote:3vzfdx3u]This truth about dialogue, so profoundly expressed by Pope Paul VI in his Encyclical Ecclesiam Suam, was also taken up by the Council in its teaching and ecumenical activity. Dialogue is not simply an exchange of ideas. In some way it is always an “exchange of gifts”.
    For this reason, the Council’s Decree on Ecumenism also emphasizes the importance of “every effort to eliminate words, judgments, and actions which do not respond to the condition of separated brethren with truth and fairness and so make mutual relations between them more difficult”. The Decree approaches the question from the standpoint of the Catholic Church and refers to the criteria which she must apply in relation to other Christians. In all this, however, reciprocity is required. To follow these criteria is a commitment of each of the parties which desire to enter into dialogue and it is a precondition for starting such dialogue. It is necessary to pass from antagonism and conflict to a situation where each party recognizes the other as a partner. When undertaking dialogue, each side must presuppose in the other a desire for reconciliation, for unity in truth. For this to happen, any display of mutual opposition must disappear. Only thus will dialogue help to overcome division and lead us closer to unity.[/quote:3vzfdx3u]

    In the end, I would urge you to present an honest and accurate portrayal of Catholic belief if you are going to critique it – anything less is the old straw man debate, and there is no use in defending a straw man. If you have a question concerning what Catholics believe then by all means ask; don’t go around telling Catholics what they believe if you can only do so as you have here (by way of reasoning it like ‘your church teaches XYZ, but they[i:3vzfdx3u] really [/i:3vzfdx3u]mean by that is ABC) when what you are saying is not only far from what the Church actually teaches, but is indeed the exact [b:3vzfdx3u]opposite[/b:3vzfdx3u] of what it teaches.

    #6369
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Accipio says:

    [quote:8f28vtgf]For shame, if you truely believe such a thing. This IS what the Catholic Church believes (above), no Catholic is free to deviate from such things. Neither are you justified in telling me or anyone that “oh they don’t really teach THAT!” or anything similar, which you’ve done here[/quote:8f28vtgf]

    Seems to me like you’ve been sheltered to long. Come up for some air and see what the reality is.

    I don’t mis-represent anything. You can say what you want, I can’t stop that, but I am not mis-informed.
    Thank you.

    #6371

    Wow, this is really getting nowhere.

    Ron, thank you very much for coming to a Catholic website and telling some very well qualified and very faithful people that all the study of the Catholic beliefs they have done is wrong and that you know the truth.

    Ron, what would we have done without your insight? It seems like you are the only one with the special knowledge of what the Catholic Church [i:2gk1awh1]really[/i:2gk1awh1] teaches. You are truly an angel sent from God.

    I can’t believe that you have the audacity to come here and tell us what we believe. How foolish is that? Maybe you’ve read the DaVinci code a few too many times. The Catholic Church harbors no secrets about its beliefs. [b:2gk1awh1]YOU[/b:2gk1awh1] are the one who has been decieved, Ron, and you continue to try and deceive others about the Catholic Church through either your own ignorance or sheer stupidity or (even worse) both.

    You have broken rule #3[/url:2gk1awh1] countless times and it has finally gone too far. You are suspended from posting here for one week and if you choose to return after one week and continue your thoughtless, anti-Catholic rhetoric you will be banned permanently.

    #6715
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    <img loading=” title=”Wink” /> [color=red:38ocsvo4]I’m BACK[/color:38ocsvo4]

    I’ve been so busy — Oh yes Jon – don’t forget my website as it is there to help explain my Biblical points – if you really want to know <img loading=” title=”Wink” />

    #6716
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:2m0hj52z]

    <img loading=” title=”Wink” /> [color=red:2m0hj52z]I’m BACK[/color:2m0hj52z]

    I’ve been so busy — Oh yes Jon – don’t forget my website as it is there to help explain my Biblical points – if you really want to know <img loading=” title=”Wink” />[/quote:2m0hj52z]

    [color=darkred:2m0hj52z]Intent is important to us silly catholics. If your intent is to just tell us how wrong we are, then I assure you that won’t fly well.

    If you wish to actually have a conversation and have decided that you may in fact be wrong, then let’s talk…. :mrgreen: [/color:2m0hj52z]

    #6727

    [quote:9313hk60]I’ve been so busy — Oh yes Jon – don’t forget my website as it is there to help explain my Biblical points – if you really want to know <img loading=” title=”Wink” />[/quote:9313hk60]
    Right back at you, bud. <img loading=” title=”Wink” />

    #6731
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hello Victor

    [quote:3cg97j98]Intent is important to us silly catholics. If your intent is to just tell us how wrong we are, then I assure you that won’t fly well.

    If you wish to actually have a conversation and have decided that you may in fact be wrong, then let’s talk…. [/quote:3cg97j98]

    Intent? that hasn’t changed – not in the least
    Conversation – yes
    The rest including being banned? Its all part of the job – if you don’t have ears to hear – that is your choice.

    I just tell you the way things really are- factual and very Biblical

    Have a good day anyway – okay?

    #6734
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:33majwu5]Intent? that hasn’t changed – not in the least[/quote:33majwu5]
    [color=darkred:33majwu5]Sorry to hear about that.[/color:33majwu5]
    [quote:33majwu5]Conversation – yes[/quote:33majwu5]
    [color=darkred:33majwu5]Not if your intent hasn’t changed.[/color:33majwu5]
    [quote:33majwu5]The rest including being banned? Its all part of the job – if you don’t have ears to hear – that is your choice.

    I just tell you the way things really are- factual and very Biblical

    Have a good day anyway – okay?[/quote:33majwu5]
    [color=darkred:33majwu5]Peace be with you…[/color:33majwu5]

    #7426
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    We need not dwell upon the possibility of the salvation of mankind or upon its appropriateness. Nor need we remind the reader that after God had freely determined to save the human race, He might have done so by pardoning man’s sins without having recourse to the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. Still, the Incarnation of the Word was the most fitting means for the salvation of man, and was even necessary, in case God claimed full satisfaction for the injury done to him by sin (see INCARNATION). Though the office of Saviour is really one, it is virtually multiple: there must be an atonement for sin and damnation, an establishment of the truth so as to overcome human ignorance and error, a perennial source of spiritual strength aiding man in his struggle against darkness and concupiscence. There can be no doubt that Jesus Christ really fulfilled these three functions, that He therefore really saved mankind from sin and its consequences. As teacher He established the reign of truth; as king He supplied strength to His subjects; as priest He stood between heaven and earth, reconciling sinful man with his angry God.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm

    #7542
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    very good Mr. Weathers and Did you notice that He did it wthout sacraments, purgatory, or intercessons of dead people either !

    [b:1zzv58aw]I can accept this last note very well[/b:1zzv58aw]

    #7544

    Ron, weather posted that directly from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

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