[quote:iwp6xjkd]In short, for Orthodox, the Cross is like a sword wielded by God against the devil and all manner of darkness, or a tool for rebuilding and restoring; in the west (most particularly in popular piety) it has become something of a bribe to get God to like us (thus, a weapon against God in a manner of speaking.) This latter understanding, or shades of it, are not only entirely wrong, but blasphemous.[/quote:iwp6xjkd]

Can you clarify this Agustine?

~Victor

Victor,

[quote:1u9v510f]Can you clarify this Agustine?[/quote:1u9v510f]

How exactly?

Jon,

[quote:1u9v510f]I guess not[/quote:1u9v510f]

Forgive me for not [b:1u9v510f]living[/b:1u9v510f] on message forums.

[quote:ggbhh9b8]When Jesus is on the cross, the man being crucified next to him is told by jesus that they will both be in paradise together soon. I believe that purgatory is a way for people to be less jealous of those who recieve forgivness on their death beds because the jealous lived their life ‘better’ for longer. [/quote:ggbhh9b8]

Huh? This is the first time I have ever heard this. There is no reason to be jelous of someone going to heaven. We should jump for joy. I have no idea why you came to this conclusion.

Dobberda, I do not mean to be rude but it is becoming clear to me that you do not understand Catholic theology. Instead of assuming reasons why not ask for clarification?

[quote:ggbhh9b8]Readind some of the posts from people that believe in purgatory, it seems as thought their foundation is vague. Reasons such as, “it doesnt say there isnt purgatory”, or “what if your not that bad of a sinner, what then?”. [/quote:ggbhh9b8]

I’m sorry you lost me here. How is that vague?

[quote:ggbhh9b8]With God, their is greater commandments, but when it comes to heaven, their isnt ‘more clean’ and ‘less clean’.[/quote:ggbhh9b8]

Revelation 21:27 tells us that [b:ggbhh9b8]nothing[/b:ggbhh9b8] unclean shall enter heaven. Do we disagree here?

[quote:ggbhh9b8]God drew the line, he made it very easy for us to cleanse ourselves. Do his will, follow jesus and we will be made perfect. THEIR ARE NO SHADES OF GREY IN GODS LAW. For every little thing that is debatable, their is another huge passage that is crystal clear.[/quote:ggbhh9b8]

Amen!! We don’t disagree here. Dobberda, I recommend you read the following article Explaining Purgatory[/url:ggbhh9b8] to help you understand the Catholic position. If you need further clarification come back and ask away.

The Least
~Victor

The Church does define that Purgatory is a place of purification from the temporal punishment due to sin, in order to ready us for the Beatific Vision. While it has over centuries the manner of expressing how purgatory effects that purification of the soul has varied, the concept that it is a place of purification, or as your instruction (James) focused on, enlightenment of sorts is all consistant with the Churches teachings.

It all reminds me of a priest who was teaching about baptism in a small villiage in the Tropics, before electricity and modern conveniances had come to the islands before World War II. He asked the students about various liquids that would either be valid or invalid in the rite, they all agreed that fresh water from a lake, stream or river would be valid, and rose water and coconut water was not. He asked them about water that was made out of ice, the students said no it would not be valid. He told them it would, they where all puzzled. He asked them why the water from ice would not be valid, it was potable water, and true water. They informed him they had never heard of ice, and did not know what it was. Which taught the priest that sometimes we look at the same thing from a different angle, and that the angle is sometimes influenced by our culture.

In some times and cultures the pains and suffering of Purgatory is more cultural, and as souls do not feel phyisical pain, (theologians tell us that the suffering in purgatory is knowing that we will See God face to face, but our suffering is in having to wait.) we sometimes understand one aspect of Purgatory from our culture, rather than as a whole concept.

yeah. It does to me