The Biblical assessment

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  • #8288
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    MR. LARoberts
    you state:

    [quote:2gd9w49f]From post to post, I am amazed at how much lower Mr. K can sink.

    As usual, he makes rude comments, undeveloped and unsubstantiated remarks, all devoid of logical thought. I’m beginning to wonder if his refusal to tell us which of the many man made sects he has been brainwashed by is less that the topic will be diverted into their manmade doctrines [/quote:2gd9w49f]

    rather then to post a defiinite rebutal of your ridculous posting with all the
    garbage,

    I’ll simply give you a challenge to debate everyone of my articles concerning catholicism to see [u:2gd9w49f][b:2gd9w49f]which one of us is more biblical or just full of
    themselves [/b:2gd9w49f][/u:2gd9w49f]
    you name the article or subject to start and then we will alternate choices after that!

    #8289
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Why waste time with someone who has closed his mind to Christ, but willing to sop up the sewage from Anti-Catholic writers. I’d rather offer a rosary for the intentions of your soul, and it’s return to Christ, as well as my own soul that I [i:11urz14w]work out[/i:11urz14w] my salvation in fear and trembling.

    #8290
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Mr. LARoberts says:

    [quote:yd2a0rbm]Why waste time with someone who has closed his mind to Christ, but willing to sop up the sewage from Anti-Catholic writers. I’d rather offer a rosary for the intentions of your soul, and it’s return to Christ, as well as my own soul that I work out my salvation in fear and trembling. [/quote:yd2a0rbm]

    THEN why did you post such a ridiculous and phony charge as you did above? You think I’m the one with the closed mind, yet you pray the rosary which is filled with repititious prayers and to another human which are two things forbidden by that very one that you say my mind is closed to? And you’d rather work you salvation out instead of resting upon His grace that shed His blood to redeem me and you if you allowed His free gift into your life, instead of those “traditions” that do nothing for you?

    But as for MAry – Here is my latest article that I haven’t posted on my web yet– enjoy because it is Biblical –


    What would Jesus have us think about Mary?

    Different religions have different beliefs, and everybody knows that much. We have a source by which we can determine which beliefs are acceptable to the Lord and which are not. This is done simply by checking what His Word says in the Bible. So let us check about Mary, the mother of Jesus, to see what His wishes are in how we are to think about her. In other words, WWJD, what would Jesus do or have us do in relation to her? Should we pray to her, hold her up on a pedestal, or bow down to her?
    If we look at Luke 1:28, 30, 38, we see, “And having come in, the angel said to her, Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women! Then the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Then Mary said, Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” So one must admit that she is special indeed; but what does that mean other than that God chose her to bear His son, Jesus, and she consented? Does this mean she can intercede for us, hear and answer prayers such as the rosary, or protect us from the evil one in any way? No, of course not. It doesn’t look that way. But maybe if we continue to check out Scriptures, we’d get further insights to what Jesus would think.
    First, we’ll look at Luke 2:42 to 51, where we see, “And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem ; When they had finished the days, as they returned, the boy Jesus lingered behind in Jerusalem. And Joseph and His mother did not know it;Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers. So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously. And He said to them, Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business? But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them. Then He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them, but His mother kept all these things in her heart.” Notice how He said that “He must be about My Father’s business”? As a child of Mary and Joseph (though not biologically), He subjected to their leadership as parents, just as we should do, but He made His point that He was on Earth to do God the Father’s will. Nothing is said about His mother’s will.
    Now we’ll go to Matthew 12:46-50, which states, “While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You. But He answered and said to the one who told Him, Who is My mother and who are My brothers? And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” Jesus is telling us that His spiritual family is much more important than His human family. (Yes, Jesus had human brothers.)
    Then at the wedding of Cana, we see, “And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, They have no wine. Jesus said to her, Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come. His mother said to the servants, Whatever He says to you, do it.” (John 2:3-5) Again we see that, as a human, Mary made a simple request, but notice that Jesus again questioned Mary in regards to her intercession for a miracle and telling her that His hour had not come. And notice how Mary simply said, for us all to note, that we should “do as He says?”
    Another spot to look at is in Luke 11:27,28, “And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You! But He said, More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Here Jesus puts it into proper perspective. Mary, just because she was His physical mother, gave her no special power grants or privileges. Sure, she was used by God to be His mother, but that didn’t rank her as superior, for Jesus even said of John the Baptist, “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” That’s incredible since there was Abraham, Solomon, Daniel, Moses, and Elijah that we might have thought were greater.
    Now, as far as Jesus making her our mother when He said to John from on the cross, “When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, Woman, behold your son! Then He said to the disciple, Behold your mother! And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.” (John 19:26, 27) John was to take care of her. Jesus never told her to “behold the rest of mankind as your children.” Yes, Jesus had other brothers and sisters, but at this point they were not yet believers. This also shows the importance of Christian fellowship, as we see that Jesus would rather have His mother to be cared for by a Christian than a family member.
    So what are we to do? Pray to her? No, as she said that we are to do as He says. And His word tells us that He “is a jealous God,” (Deuteronomy 6:15), and that when Jesus was crucified the curtain that separated people from entering the temple’s Holy of Holies, was torn down, providing our access to Him directly. Jesus finished the priesthood and forever lives to intercede for us to the Father (Hebrews 7:23-27). We can now, “come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” (Hebrews 4:16) As Isaiah said, “Should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?” (Isaiah 8:19)
    In closing, when somebody tells you that they’ll pray the rosary or some other prayer to Mary, remind them that the Bible says we shouldn’t pray to anyone but God, not to mention that Jesus said repetitious prayers such as that do no good. (Matthew 6:7) Even the so-named Lord’s prayer was given as an outline to learn how to pray and not as a specific prayer. (Luke 11:1-4) Tell them that you have Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, (Hebrews 12:2) by whom no other name is given for Salvation (Acts 4:12). Politely decline their wishes, and ask if they’d like to get to know the Bible better. Remind them that even Mary said, “Do as He tells you.” Who knows? Maybe it’s just what they need to know. Mary was Jesus’ mother, nothing more, blessed indeed, but that’s it. Let’s keep our eyes on Him alone just as He is meant to be.

    #8291
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Yawn. Same disproved rot I’ve seen copied from dozens of other people who want to tell God how to run things.

    As for Jesus’ blood brothers, it shows a poor grasp of both the language of the time, and Jewish practices and law, all three which our Lord was observant about. If Jesus had Blood brothers (half brothers) through our Lady and St. Joseph, it would mean that He was seduced by the devil in the Jewish mind. At the Cross when he said to our Lady and St. John the Beloved Desciple, “Mother behold your son, and Son behold your mother.” He would have contradicted Halkalah by giving the resposibility over to someone who was not His blood relative, let alone brother. Anyone with basic Aramaic and (Biblical) Greek knows that the term for brothers, or rather the more correct translation perverted by Protestant writers who wanted to deny any special role the Mary plays in the process of our salvation knows it can mean brother, cousin or relative. But wanting to conform God to their own theology Protestants deny both an honest translation and the use of historical evidence that the Early Church honored our Lady. Archeology has uncoverd in the past fifty years Churches in from the second Century that are dedicated to our Lady. These where underground Churches during the persecutions, dating before the Protestants say the Church was founded under Constantine. (don’t forget Archeology as a science, vs. tomb robbers and artifact collectors and dealers is only around 100 years old.)

    As we are dealing with someone who has fallen for the trap that Satan has set by the Sola Sciptura lie, making tearing the branches from the Vine in order to attempt to put emnity betweeen Christ’s Church and others professing to be part of the Vine, or rather the vine itself…. here is a link to multiple verses that support what the Church has always taught and held regarding the role our Lady played. Mind you rather than taking away from the graces of Christ and His means of saving us, it strenghtens Christ’s work which He asks us to participate in by running the good race, or working out our salvation in fear and trembling, (Both biblical admonishons that Protestants overlook as it does not fit the way they want salvation to work, nor take responsiblitiy for their own actions) I doubt Ronnie boy will look at them (Reasonable arguments are like water on the Wicked Witch of the West) [url:3iystj2v]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-VII[/url:3iystj2v]

    I could go on picking apart the fallacious and simplistic calumnies against Jesus, and His mother, let alone the repeted misrepresentations of Scripture and Catholic teaching that Ron spews, however it is evident that Ron does not look at or weigh the evidence let alone review with a prayerful heart any of the postings of links that people give, he simply shuts his mind consults his anti-Catholic sources, and ignores anyone but himself and his sources. I think everyone here knows he has no credibility, and his articles are simply a means of making a pitiful angry man puff himself up with pride. If he was honest he would add to, “Look what I wrote” the following self serving statements. “You guys don’t get it, you have to look to me for the answers” “I’m the only one who can teach you” “You may have answered with the facts, but my misrepresentations are from me, (I refuse to disclose my sources) so you have to believe them because I proclaim myself to be a self taught Bible expert.”, what other writings to you need aside from my warped interpretation of the Scriptures, devoid of understanding of the language, culture and situation at the times each of the books where either written or transmitted orally for several hundred years.”

    BTW, I’ve not seen Ronnies reply to why there are more than one [u:3iystj2v]differing accounts [/u:3iystj2v]of Creation in the Bible, (See Gen 1 Gen 2 and the Psalms)[/url]

    #8292
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    LARoberts says:
    [quote:2rnurixa]rather the more correct translation perverted by Protestant writers who wanted to deny any special role the Mary plays in the process of our salvation knows it can mean brother, cousin or relative[/quote:2rnurixa]
    Ah, but which one is it? Looking at context such as in Matthew’s account of 13:15,56 – [color=red:2rnurixa]Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses,[h] Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”[/color:2rnurixa] the only rational answer is brothers. Also in Matthew 12: 47-50 it clearly is not a relative or cousin. Plus the other Scriptures couldhave written in a different word if it was a cousin or relative. Now explain how you come up with the idea that it would mean
    [quote:2rnurixa]that He was seduced by the devil in the Jewish mind.[/quote:2rnurixa]
    Looks like you are grabing straws!
    [quote:2rnurixa]Early Church honored our Lady.[/quote:2rnurixa]
    No problem honoring Mary but the part of
    [quote:2rnurixa]special role the Mary plays in the process of our salvation [/quote:2rnurixa]
    is limited to Having consented to Be Jesus’ mother, that’s it!
    [quote:2rnurixa]by giving the resposibility over to someone who was not His blood relative, let alone brother[/quote:2rnurixa]
    He views a believer as one that will care for Mary more then His Half-brothers of whom were not saved until after the death and resurrection of Jesus – No problem there Mr. Educated one!

    [quote:2rnurixa]the trap that Satan has set by the Sola Sciptura lie[/quote:2rnurixa]
    Until you show anything that is from God that carries the importance as His
    word, you’ll just have to keep blowing hot air. BTW we know that the Bible is from God if for no other reason then prophetcy – One third of the Bible is prophetcy with no errors – that is one reason Jesus said “why I tell you before hand.”

    [quote:2rnurixa]I doubt Ronnie boy will look at them (Reasonable arguments are like water on the Wicked Witch of the West) http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blesse … he_bvm-VII [/quote:2rnurixa]
    After being accused of circular reasoning, you chose to use Catholic materials to prove catholic claims? But which one should I follow?
    [quote:2rnurixa]VII. Mary’s Coronation in Heaven -2 Tim 4:8 – Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.[/quote:2rnurixa]
    yet 2 Timothy 4:8 in reality says – [color=red:2rnurixa] Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.[/color:2rnurixa]
    never mentions a word about Mary (and as my article shows her being Jesus’ mother was not of great Heavenly value as we see in Luke 11:27,28 and Matthew 11:11) Is John Salza an unknown, infallible pope or something? Nope! <img loading=” title=”Very Happy” />
    [quote:2rnurixa]it is evident that Ron does not look at or weigh the evidence[/quote:2rnurixa]
    Evidence Mr. LARoberts, Yes let us not fail to examine all the evidence by starting with God’s word not your church’s empty boasts and claims – we want the truth not your stories of fiction nor your postings filled with accusations about my lack of credibility without credible evidence.

    [quote:2rnurixa]BTW, I’ve not seen Ronnies reply to why there are more than one differing accounts of Creation in the Bible, (See Gen 1 Gen 2 and the Psalms)[/url][/quote:2rnurixa]
    Mr. LARoberts – there is only one way that the Earth was created, not two ways. Are you sure you want to go there? (think about it before you decide just how you feel that there are two)

    #8294
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Ok, I’ll bite, but you have to do something Ronnie, you have to be honest and answer all the questions, and the questions that are asked. Something you’ve proven unable to do in any manner let alone a civil manner.

    Your literal brothers and sisters argument, another idea that did not come into being until the 17th Century is not convincing. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the times and languages spoken in Israel during the earthly life of our Lord. But that being ignored by you is no big newsbreak.

    I directed you to a Catholic site with scripture quotes, and of course that which you reject, (ie that which the first Christians believed, as opposed to what men made up in the 16th and 17th Centuries) you swallow hook line and sinker what Jack Chick and Hislop have to write, even in the face of evidence to the contrary by historians who have actually studied ancient writings, even honest non-catholics know the sources you refuse to disclose are hogwash. What would you like me to link to for quotes regarding a Catholic argument, the Tammy Faye site? How about Oral Roberts, (If God does not threaten to take him again should he not come up with enough money) How about a totally non-Christian site like a Seventh Day Adventist, or Church of God site. Or perhaps Jack Chick is more your speed. He too seems to be irritable when people point out the facts, and discount his shoddy historical citations, and misrepresentations.

    You continue to show that much more than a crowbar would be needed to open your mind…. Hmm come to think of it, a rosary and a Novena to St. Jude are stronger than a crowbar.

    #8296
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    first I’ll respond to your note above:

    [quote:2aey02zk]Ok, I’ll bite, but you have to do something Ronnie, you have to be honest and answer all the questions, and the questions that are asked. Something you’ve proven unable to do in any manner let along a civil manner. [/quote:2aey02zk]

    I’d shout “praise the Lord” you finally wrote a civil note to me (I think?)
    I’ve been honest and have attempted to answer all your questions.

    [quote:2aey02zk]Your literal brothers and sisters argument, another idea that did not come into being until the 17th Century is not convincing, and shows a complete lack of understanding of the times and languages spoken in Israel during the earthly life of our Lord. But that is no big newsbreak.[/quote:2aey02zk]
    Why do you not understand something? I don’t read what you claim are 17th century ideas to forward them. I read my Bible that was written by those of whom lived with our Lord and got their info from Him – that is first century material -and I show what it says in the Biblical manner – Scriptural talk if you will, so how can you say it says differently? As for the website you took us to, I showed how reliable those Scripture quotes aren’t – do you want me to show you on the rest of his evidence as well?
    It is no problem if that is what you want?

    Should we start our discussion with your tendency to want to pray to others or what? You decide.

    #8297

    [quote:3s49wm2c]Why do you not understand something? I don’t read what you claim are 17th century ideas to forward them.[/quote:3s49wm2c]
    Ron, no “Christian” believed the way you did until the 1500s when the Reformers came around. NONE. There is no historical evidence to the contrary.

    They may be 1st century texts but they were not interpreted in the way that you do until nearly 1500 years later.

    Were all the other Christians wrong prior to that time?

    #8298
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Ronnie, you continue to threaten to enlighten us with your fabrications, but all we see is derogatory statements, and no “edgemication”. In the past you stated that there where two biblically acceptable reasons for divorce, but never told us what they where. You tell us that emploring the saints to interceed for and with us before the throne of God is wrong. Are they no longer members of the Church? Or are you SDA or a similar semi-chrisitan sect member, and believe that they are “asleep” until the end of the world. If you are versed in the teachings of THE Church, then you know the position of veneration of the Saints vs the Worship of God. (Is your mother alive, have you ever visited the grave of your brother, did you leave flowers there, if so I accuse you of leaving a votive offering and worshiping him. Do you keep pictures of them? If so you are guilty of Idolotry as in the strict sense of your interpretation of the Bible, any image of anything in heaven or on earth is idolotry.)

    You said you’d answer the questions about the different stories of creation, how each gives a different order of events. While we are on it, is the earth flat? Is there a dome over the flat earth? Are the stars really holes in the dome. Does the sun come up over one side of the dome and set on the other side? How many corners are there on the Earth? Where does the earth end?

    While we are on the subject, The Protestant denies that we should have any carved statues of anything on heaven or earth. They decry the use of statues of our Lord, our Lady or the Saints in Catholic Churches. Anyone who reads what is written in the Bible, rather than opens it with a preconcieved idea and tries to hammer it to fit their own predetermined ideas plainly reads that we are forbidden to make idols and give them the worship that we give to God, or consider them to have the power of God. No Catholic does this with any statue or icon. To do so would be a violation of what the Church teaches. To claim otherwise is to either be ignorant of what the Church teaches, or to be a liar who misrepresents the teachings of the Church. To claim that Mary is worshiped as God, or has any power to interceed for us on her own, is to be guilty of calumny, any graces or ability to interceed come from the same graces that allowed for her to live a life of purity, they come from Her son. From the moment of the incarnation of Christ in her womb she became His mother, the Title Mother of God, or Theotokos, (God bearer) in no way implies that she pre-existed the Logos, but as Jesus, True God and True Man was united in her womb, she bears the title. Anyone who claims that the Church teaches otherwise again is a liar or calumnates. If one is guilty of the calumnies, I would hope it is because they have been in their ignorance polluted by lies written by anti-catholics, like the ones you copy in your oh so silly articles on your webpage. I say I hope so, because should someone perpetuate the misdeeds and misrepresentations that you and your ilk have perpetuated, and had they known better, thinking the ends of converting people to the false premise of Protestantism justifies the distortion of the true teachings of The Church, I’d not want to be standing in their place on the day of Judgement.

    Nearing the end of my questions for now. When I posted a link to Dave Armstrong, (former Sola Scriptura anti-catholic minister) and his books, Biblical Proofs of Catholicism, and More Biblical Proofs of Catholicism, you replied without having read them, “What evil books” On what basis? You make statements like those, without backing them up. You off hand reject anything anyone else says, (Are you hiding from us that you are the newest and best Joseph Smith, and have a special revelation or something?, you seem to imply that you are the only one who knows anything, and you claim everything that you spout is from your own unaided self study of the Bible, (a claim that I have said before is unbelievable, as you simply harp what various Protestant writers invented before you.)

    Well I’ll await a sensible reply, I’ll keep some heart medicine close at hand just on the off chance that (however unlikely) that you actually answer at least one of the questions or statements, with an answer that took some thought, rather than a frothy mouthed cyber fit, that deflects from the question, or simply denegrades others and moves on unsupported.

    #8299
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I”ll be back with the info that you requested – give me a little time to get your info as I start working my 12 hour shifts again today – okay? and thank you for at least giving me a list to work with instead of just your feelings.

    Ron K

    #8300
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I too will be away for a couple of days, first round of Chemo today….

    While I do see some decieption in your comment about the list, as many times before you have been asked pointed questions, but evade and offer condecending comments, throw temper tantrums, and talk down to people here. You become offended when your personal interpretation is shown to be false in the light of the original languages. This time, (and a couple of other times, you have been boarderline polite. I think the intersession of our Lady and the Saints may be working on you…. They have cracked harder nuts than you before.

    Once again, as your writing is not unique, please give your sources, as you tend to take snippets and not give a context frome the sources you “borrow” from and propose as your own inspired thought.

    #8301
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Okay Mr LARoberts, Here is the why answers to the first two questions.
    You began with
    [quote:p34hqhhn]Ronnie, you continue to threaten to enlighten us with your fabrications, but all we see is derogatory statements, and no “edgemication”. In the past you stated that there where two biblically acceptable reasons for divorce, but never told us what they where.
    [quote:p34hqhhn]

    The two biblically acceptable reasons for divorce.
    1 (1 Corinthians 7:15) – But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.
    When an unbeliever leaves a believer – the believer is not bound to the marriage as when my wife served papers on me, there was no changing her mind unless I turned my back on Christ (THAT is what it says – right?)
    2 – (Matthew 19:9) – And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery
    In cases of unfaithfulness of the partner – she or he sleeps with another – then that person is no longer bound to the marriage.

    In both examples, that individual’s marriage bond has been broken and as 1 Coriinthians 7:39 shows – 39 A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.- if the bond is legally broken, then they are legally acceptable to remarry but only to another believer.

    [quote:p34hqhhn]You tell us that emploring the saints to interceed for and with us before the throne of God is wrong. Are they no longer members of the Church? Or are you SDA or a similar semi-chrisitan sect member, and believe that they are “asleep” until the end of the world. If you are versed in the teachings of THE Church, then you know the position of veneration of the Saints vs the Worship of God. (Is your mother alive, have you ever visited the grave of your brother, did you leave flowers there, if so I accuse you of leaving a votive offering and worshiping him. Do you keep pictures of them? If so you are guilty of Idolotry as in the strict sense of your interpretation of the Bible, any image of anything in heaven or on earth is idolotry.) [/quote:p34hqhhn][/quote:p34hqhhn][/quote:p34hqhhn]

    Answers to item #2 – prayers to anyone but God
    Exodus 20:4,5 – “You shall not make for yourself a carved image any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God
    Deuteronomy 4:16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, 23 Take heed to yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of anything which the LORD your God has forbidden you. 24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
    It continues to verses – 35 + 39 – 35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD Himself is God; there is none other besides Him 39 Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.
    There are more Scripture verses similar to these that say the same!
    Even into Revelation 19:10 (John knew not to worship any other, fell down in homage and ) 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!
    Again in Rev. 22:8 – Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

    In both cases, John felt that paying homage and humbleness before a something as an Angel was not out of line but in both cases, he was told to Worship God. Isaiah 8:19 – And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? Concerns mediums and wizards but also shows the principle of God in the last part.
    Now in the New Testament, Hebrews 4:16 tells us, ” Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” this referring to the throne of God. After God did away with the Old Testament go-between, the High priest who use to go behind the curtain once a year to intercede for the rest, God wants us now to approach Him directly. [Matthew 27:51- Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,] No where does the Bible call for an intercessionary prayer by or for those of whom past away into the next life. In fact 2 Timothy 3:5 says – one mediator – Jesus! Yes I know that those in Heaven are “alive with Christ” but they are dead to us, you cannot ignore this fact. There is no Scriptures that even hint otherwise. The fact that Judas Macabees may have prayed to or for the dead is a historical fact and not a precedented establishing of doctrine.

    Thus one can see that no prayer should go to any one but Jesus Christ, part of the triune God.!

    These are just the first two subjects on your list, more later.

    #8302
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Again your miss the boat by not knowing what is written in the Greek (cf the Logos vs. Rhema discussion which you ignored, without feedback from you I’m not sure if you just discount the Greek and Hebrew Text in favor of the KJV or if you just have no reply and agree that your interpretation was wrong?). The unbeliever is one who has not been incorporated into the Church through baptism. Marriage forms a sacramental, therefore undesolvable union (except by the death of one) when two baptized persons are married. If one is a baptized Christian and marries someone who is not the two cannot form a spiritual union, but only a civil contract which by it’s nature is not undesolvable. Yup I know you don’t believe in Baptism giving any grace or having an effect on the soul, but then again, that denyal of the effects of baptism is something that only came into being with the Anabaptists in the 15th Century. (As an aside, Anabatists where slaughtered by the thousands by “Bible Believing Protestants” who disagreed with them because they where looked upon as heretical by their fellow Protestants.) What you are referring to is referred to historically as the Pauline Privilage, when two pagans convert they can either have the marriage dissolved, and are free to remarry, or when only one converts.

    The second “acception” that you mention is also problematic for you, once again it is a problem of the english translation. The Infidelity refers to Pre-marital sexual relations not unfaithfulness during a marriage. If you want to know what the Word of God says, you have to look at the texts in the Hebrew and Greek. While Popes have encouraged the study of the Scriptures, and the Scriptures form the backbone of Catholic Liturgical life, the Protestant idea that everyone can become his own Pope and interpret the Scriptures themselves is the cause of chaos rather than unity in the Body of Christ.

    I’ll reply to part two in a couple of days, countdown 2 hrs 10 minutes to Chemo number one, so I will have to see what if any reaction I have. But now that you are attempting to be civil, even if you reject what has been taught for 2000 years, and refuse to look into the original texts rather than a translation, (something you could do, and I would reccomend if you really want to discuss the Scriptures in depth and accuratly, although it would probably end up making you a Catholic again.)

    #8303
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Not So!

    [quote:1bo3esac]Again your miss the boat by not knowing what is written in the Greek (cf the Logos vs. Rhema discussion which you ignored, without feedback from you I’m not sure if you just discount the Greek and Hebrew Text in favor of the KJV or if you just have no reply and agree that your interpretation was wrong?). [/quote:1bo3esac]
    This is how thick the deception is! You say I’m wrong because I don’t know or haven’t looked at the languages? Well there is one problem with taking you at your word –
    [quote:1bo3esac]The unbeliever is one who has not been incorporated into the Church through baptism.[/quote:1bo3esac]
    Baptism saves no one – Why do I say that? Titus 3:5 tells us – [color=red:1bo3esac] [u:1bo3esac][b:1bo3esac]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us[/b:1bo3esac][/u:1bo3esac], through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,[/color:1bo3esac] Yes 1 Peter 3:21 tells us “There is also an antitype which now saves us baptism” but look at the verse before it , we see that verse 20 says – [quote:1bo3esac]while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.[/quote:1bo3esac] and 21 ends up with [color=red:1bo3esac][u:1bo3esac][b:1bo3esac] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,[/b:1bo3esac][/u:1bo3esac][/color:1bo3esac] In other words, we are saved by Christ’s death and resurrection not the identifying act of baptism which would be something one could boast about having done which would also be against Ephesians 2:8,9. (The water never saved anyone in the flood either but the Ark did – a picture of those “in Christ”) Yes I am attempting to be civil, now the question is how will you react? (Never be a Catholic again)
    [quote:1bo3esac]
    Marriage forms a sacramental, therefore undesolvable union (except by the death of one) when two baptized persons are married. If one is a baptized Christian and marries someone who is not the two cannot form a spiritual union, but only a civil contract which by it’s nature is not undesolvable. Yup I know you don’t believe in Baptism giving any grace or having an effect on the soul, but then again, that denyal of the effects of baptism is something that only came into being with the Anabaptists in the 15th Century. (As an aside, Anabatists where slaughtered by the thousands by “Bible Believing Protestants” who disagreed with them because they where looked upon as heretical by their fellow Protestants.) What you are referring to is referred to historically as the Pauline Privilage, when two pagans convert they can either have the marriage dissolved, and are free to remarry, or when only one converts. [/quote:1bo3esac]
    Although this is what you claim to be historical – It is not Biblical thus I reject it as I’ve shown you what Paul writes!

    [quote:1bo3esac]The second “acception” that you mention is also problematic for you, once again it is a problem of the english translation. The Infidelity refers to Pre-marital sexual relations not unfaithfulness during a marriage. If you want to know what the Word of God says, you have to look at the texts in the Hebrew and Greek. While Popes have encouraged the study of the Scriptures, and the Scriptures form the backbone of Catholic Liturgical life, the Protestant idea that everyone can become his own Pope and interpret the Scriptures themselves is the cause of chaos rather than unity in the Body of Christ. [/quote:1bo3esac]
    The problem is more then just my idea that I can become my own pope.
    We are invited to go to Jesus – no educated or highly educated – Jesus did not set that as a requirement but only that we know His word (how often He said “you error not knowing Scriptures” Matthew 22:29) Furthermore
    I disagree with your submittion or my failing to submit to a pope as rejecting Christ for two reasons – It is a form of what Revelation 2:15 tells us [color=red:1bo3esac]15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate[/color:1bo3esac] and Dave Hunt’s book “a woman rides the beast” shows is a joke. I’m sure you do not approve of Mr Hunt but I’ve talked to him personally and I know HE is correct!
    [quote:1bo3esac]
    I’ll reply to part two in a couple of days, countdown 2 hrs 10 minutes to Chemo number one, so I will have to see what if any reaction I have. But now that you are attempting to be civil, even if you reject what has been taught for 2000 years, and refuse to look into the original texts rather than a translation, (something you could do, and I would reccomend if you really want to discuss the Scriptures in depth and accuratly, although it would probably end up making you a Catholic again.)[/quote:1bo3esac]
    It won’t happen.

    #8304
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    They tell me the side effects of my Chemo may not happen with the first dose, or may be delayed for a day or two. So I’m reading your posting, still unconvinced of your weak arguments.

    [quote:52vhl8sa]Dave Hunt’s book “a woman rides the beast” shows is a joke. I’m sure you do not approve of Mr Hunt but I’ve talked to him personally and I know HE is correct!
    [/quote:52vhl8sa]

    I’ve read Hunt’s books and heard him speak too. I find him to be totally unreliable. I understand that you with your position to uphold are willing to believe everything he says, but I think it is a rehash of the same garbage as Hislop and Co.

    It is not a matter of how smart one is, how much education one has, [u:52vhl8sa][b:52vhl8sa]it is a matter of seeking out the truth[/b:52vhl8sa][/u:52vhl8sa] through prayer and study. Translations of any kind are as the old saying goes, “Traduttore traditore” or the translator is a traitor. One of the major flaws with any english translation of the Bible, Catholic or Protestant is that the subtle nuances of the text are not always clear. In Hebrew, Greek, Latin, the romance languages, and Middle Eastern Languages you have far more expressive language. I do believe you really do need to sit down with a good greek and hebrew lexicon, even one from a Protestant publisher, and you will find what you want the Bible to say is not what God really said. If one is so invested in his position, and so fearful of finding out that he is wrong that he will not take an honest look at the other side of an argument prayerfully, then smart or dull, educated or uneducated he makes himself a fool. I’ve encouraged you to study the greek because I think you can do it, and so you don’t have to take my word for it.

    I stated that I know you don’t believe in the Power of Christ through baptism even though it is told to us in the Scriptures. It is a Protestant trait to take ownership of the Bible, and see only what fits into ones own narrow viewpoint. If it where otherwise you would look at history, culture and language, rather than reading the Holy Writ from the point of view of someone divorced from any sense of where the Bible came from, and what it was that Christ was addressing.

    Let’s take a look at another of your contradictions.

    [quote:52vhl8sa]He views a believer as one that will care for Mary more then His Half-brothers of whom were not saved until after the death and resurrection of Jesus – No problem there Mr. Educated one! [/quote:52vhl8sa]

    Are you telling me that these men mentioned as Jesus “Brothers” who followed him, as did Mary around Israel where not saved until the death and resurrection of Jesus, but John the non-blood relative was? Then John must have had some special provision (not spoken of in the Bible) or you have had a special extra Biblical revalation, or possibly you are scrambling around to find an answer and have ended up making something up, simply to try and disprove what has always been taught.

    Looking back on your deception of self,

    [quote:52vhl8sa]the only rational answer is brothers. Also in Matthew 12: 47-50 it clearly is not a relative or cousin. Plus the other Scriptures couldhave written in a different word if it was a cousin or relative. Now explain how you come up with the idea that it would mean [/quote:52vhl8sa]

    I explain it by having been raised a Jew before my conversion to Christ, coming from a family in which my father and his father before him where Rabbic leaders in the Sephardic community, and as I was being groomed to take the bimah, I learned Hebrew, Jewish history, Jewish culture and customs throughout the ages. I know that based on the hebrew and aramaic practices and linguistics of the time that there is a far more rational answer than yours. This is not to put you down for trying, it is good that you are trying, it will help you to realize that there is no hope in Protestantism, only with the Body of Christ, and the Institution He founded as a means to dispense His grace.

    One day soon, as the scales are removed from your eyes, and you see that it is simply human pride that has made those who have taught you to hate what Christ has given us you will come home.

    Starting to feel a little woozy, so I’ll curl up with my little doggies and revisit this again later.

    You remain in my prayers.

    #8305
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I learned this in my 70 years.two things you never debate is religion and politic’s.The Bible is read and interpret by millions of people every day and everyone has there own viewpoints on it(which is ok),I guess the main thing is they are reading it,ANYHOW who cares how someone understands it.

    #8307
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    HANDY LITTLE CHART-
    God has a positive answer:
    YOU SAY GOD SAYS BIBLE VERSES
    You say: “It’s impossible” God says: All things are possible (Luke 18:27)
    You say: “I’m too tired” God says: I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28-30)
    You say: “Nobody really loves me” God says: I love you (John 3:16 & John 3:34 )
    You say: “I can’t go on” God says: My grace is sufficient (II Corinthians 12:9 & Psalm 91:15)
    You say: “I can’t figure things out” God says: I will direct your steps (Proverbs 3:5-6)
    You say: “I can’t do it” God says: You can do all things (Philippians 4:13)
    You say: “I’m not able” God says: I am able (II Corinthians 9:8)
    You say: “It’s not worth it” God says: It will be worth it (Roman 8:28 )
    You say: “I can’t forgive myself” God says: I Forgive you (I John 1:9 & Romans 8:1)
    You say: “I can’t manage” God says: I will supply all your needs (Philippians 4:19)
    You say: “I’m afraid” God says: I have not given you a spirit of fear (II Timothy 1:7)
    You say: “I’m always worried and frustrated” God says: Cast all your cares on ME (I Peter 5:7)
    You say: “I’m not smart enough” God says: I give you wisdom (I Corinthians 1:30)
    You say: “I feel all alone” God says: I will never leave you or forsake you (Hebrews 13:5)

    #8309

    [quote:2lrdaic3]I learned this in my 70 years.two things you never debate is religion and politic’s.The Bible is read and interpret by millions of people every day and everyone has there own viewpoints on it(which is ok),I guess the main thing is they are reading it,ANYHOW who cares how someone understands it.[/quote:2lrdaic3]
    That’s quite a dangerous perspective. Truth is objective, not whatever anyone interprets it to be.

    #8312
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Jon you said:

    [quote:kw060qzs]That’s quite a dangerous perspective. Truth is objective, not whatever anyone interprets it to be.[/quote:kw060qzs]

    That is precisely my point, Thank you


    Mr.LARoberts, I hope your chemo is helping, sorry to know you need it as I also have an illness – Parkinsons – and it takes time to type so I guess we do have one thing in common <img loading=” title=”Smile” />


    Another short bit for you-
    [quote:kw060qzs]You said you’d answer the questions about the different stories of creation, how each gives a different order of events.[/quote:kw060qzs]
    they do not contradict. As Henry M Morris says in his book -[b:kw060qzs][i:kw060qzs] The Genesis Record[/i:kw060qzs][/b:kw060qzs] -[i:kw060qzs] The second chapter of Genesis describes in greater detail certain of the events of the sixth day of creation, dOEs not contradict the account in the first chapter, but is complementary to it. [/i:kw060qzs]
    How elaborate do you want me to detail this?

    [quote:kw060qzs] While we are on it, is the earth flat? [/quote:kw060qzs]
    NO
    [quote:kw060qzs]Is there a dome over the flat earth?[/quote:kw060qzs]
    NO
    [quote:kw060qzs] Are the stars really holes in the dome.[/quote:kw060qzs]
    NO
    [quote:kw060qzs] Does the sun come up over one side of the dome and set on the other side?[/quote:kw060qzs]
    NO
    [quote:kw060qzs] How many corners are there on the Earth?[/quote:kw060qzs]
    That is a figure of speach only
    [quote:kw060qzs] Where does the earth end? [/quote:kw060qzs]
    It is circular
    Why the silly questions? (Mr. LARoberts)

    #8314
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    More for LARoberts:

    You state:
    [quote:yo15aizy]While we are on the subject, The Protestant denies that we should have any carved statues of anything on heaven or earth. They decry the use of statues of our Lord, our Lady or the Saints in Catholic Churches. Anyone who reads what is written in the Bible, rather than opens it with a preconcieved idea and tries to hammer it to fit their own predetermined ideas plainly reads that we are forbidden to make idols and give them the worship that we give to God, or consider them to have the power of God. No Catholic does this with any statue or icon. To do so would be a violation of what the Church teaches. To claim otherwise is to either be ignorant of what the Church teaches, or to be a liar who misrepresents the teachings of the Church. To claim that Mary is worshiped as God, or has any power to interceed for us on her own, is to be guilty of calumny, [/quote:yo15aizy]

    Here is my (So-called below) misrepresentaton on this subject of Idolatry

    Article #49 – Idolatry

    [i:yo15aizy][b:yo15aizy] Are we living in the last days? It’s very possible as Matthew 24:24 warns us, “For false Christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible even the elect.” So with this in mind, let’s look at how Satan has many idolaters practicing this very thing of which they defend as righteous.
    Nelson’s Bible dictionary tells us that idolatry is the worship of something created as opposed to the worship of the Creator Himself. I think we can safely say that idolatry is whenever we have something between God and ourselves. Now it may be taken for granted that we shall not worship another God, for God is one and there are no others. And I’m sure that people would understand that there are many religions that indeed have false gods such as Buddhists, Moslems, Hindus, Jehovah Witnesses and many others. These religions have a different Jesus with a gospel that saves no one. But what about those subtle little idols that Satan has planted over the years to where many people of our time would be guilty of not only doing them, but defending them to be Scripturally acceptable? And what about those practices in which people aren’t even aware of being idolatrous in nature? Paul describes many such people as, “That they are enemies of the cross, whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly and whose glory is their shame, who set their mind on earthly things.” Now I don’t know of anyone who worships their belly, but obviously there are those of whom are preoccupied with satisfying the hunger of the flesh ‚Äì making their belly, their god ‚Äì which is an example of idolatry.
    There are a few other examples, but let’s look at some of those in today’s main stream religions. Take, for instance, in Hebrews 4:16, we are told that, “We can boldly go before the throne of grace. that we may obtain mercy and find grace in time of need.” Add to that other Scriptures, such as the second commandment, which tell us, “You shall not make for yourself a carved image – any likeness of anything that is in Heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God.” (Hebrews 20:4) and “For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.” (Deuteronomy 4:24). We can also know why God can hear and answer all of the many prayers that go to Him by His characteristics for He is omnipresent, a theological term that refers to the unlimited nature of God or His ability to be everywhere at all times; omniscient, a theological term that refers to God’s superior knowledge and wisdom, His power to know all things; and finally He is omnipotent, a theological term that refers to the all-encompassing power of God. (Nelson’s Illustrated Bible Dictionary.) Since our heavenly Father has these qualities, it makes me wonder why would anyone pray to anyone else? Wouldn’t that be considered idolatry regardless how much you loved them or they loved you? Just as in the stomach example given above, you may not be intentionally doing such, but to pray to a dead person, you are assuming that this person has the God-like ability to hear prayers and react accordingly. And this is done despite Biblical verses such as Isaiah 8:19 that tell us, “;.should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?” (Acts 4:12 ) “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved,” and 1 Timothy 2:5, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
    Another example of idolatry is the worship of the Host as if that were the “real presence” of His body and blood, for the same type of reasons as in the praying to dead people given above. Jesus, standing before the disciples on the night before His death, was explaining that He was giving His body to die for us, and that we should partake in the communion in remembrance of that salvational point, not creating a means of eating yourself to Heaven. Again, this is verified with other Scriptures such as in Matthew 15:11, 17 where Jesus tells us, “Not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this is what defiles a man,” and “Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes to the stomach and is eliminated?” Tie this to how Jesus spiritualized the eating of John 4 as to believing when the disciples brought back food. Just look at verses 33 to 34 of John 4, “In the meantime, the disciples said to one another, ‘Has anyone brought Him something to eat?’ Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of the one who sent Me and to finish His work.'” Furthermore Scriptures tell us that, “;the most High God does not dwell in temples made with hands,” (Acts 7:48) and that, “when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.” (Hebrews 1:3) Both of these examples of idolatry have only been touched upon slightly, but without a doubt, they are examples of today’s idolatry in practice.
    So what does the Bible say about idolatry? Fortunately, the Scriptures are very clear in how God views this sin. Colossians 3:5 tells us, “Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Because of these things, the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience.” 1 Corinthians 6:9 says, “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
    In closing, we at Gospel Light Ministries encourage you readers to carefully consider your religious views and what God’s Word says about idolatry. And ask yourself if indeed you are guilty of idolatry because of traditions that actually do go against the Word of God. Then decide for yourself, “Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts” and make that change before you die. The Bible reminds us, “among whom also we once conducted ourselves in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others” (Hebrews 2:3) until we were born again in truth and the truth set us free. Praise God! [/b:yo15aizy][/i:yo15aizy]

    [quote:yo15aizy]any graces or ability to interceed come from the same graces that allowed for her to live a life of purity, they come from Her son.[/quote:yo15aizy]
    Where do you get this idea from for it definitely did not come from Scripture?

    [quote:yo15aizy] From the moment of the incarnation of Christ in her womb she became His mother, the Title Mother of God, or Theotokos, (God bearer) in no way implies that she pre-existed the Logos, but as Jesus, True God and True Man was united in her womb, she bears the title. [/quote:yo15aizy]
    However Jesus as God was before her and she is not the Father’s mother
    Thus the problem with such a deceptive tittle!

    [quote:yo15aizy]Anyone who claims that the Church teaches otherwise again is a liar or calumnates. If one is guilty of the calumnies, I would hope it is because they have been in their ignorance polluted by lies written by anti-catholics, like the ones you copy in your oh so silly articles on your webpage. I say I hope so, because should someone perpetuate the misdeeds and misrepresentations that you and your ilk have perpetuated, and had they known better, thinking the ends of converting people to the false premise of Protestantism justifies the distortion of the true teachings of The Church, I’d not want to be standing in their place on the day of Judgement. [/quote:yo15aizy]

    I have no problem for I do neither, as for you though, let’s just say that Bible believer would not want to be a catholic with this distortion on Judjjment DAY Mr. LARoberts[/i]

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