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  • #2044

    jim rapp
    Member

    On this site it says:

    “Nowhere in the Bible does it say faith alone. This is un-Scriptural, since Christ tells us that to enter into life we must keep the commandments, hear the Church, do the will of His Father and much more with faith. Yes, actions plus faith.”



    Try reading the whole Bible, not just read James. There are other epistles in your canon by Paul:

    “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. “ (Ephesians 2:8-10)

    27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:27-31)

    He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. (Colossians 2:13)

    20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. (Romans 3:20)

    #10035

    [quote:17nttdmh]Try reading the whole Bible, not just read James. There are other epistles in your canon by Paul:

    “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. “ (Ephesians 2:8-10)

    27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:27-31)

    He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. (Colossians 2:13)

    20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by[b:17nttdmh] observing the law[/b:17nttdmh]; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. (Romans 3:20)[/quote:17nttdmh]
    My dear friend, What do you think “The Law” means? Moral Law?

    All of the passages you’ve said are not about “any works”, thus the clarification by James. Notice how they both speak of Abraham. Are they contradicting each other? Or is it that you miss that Paul speaks of Jewish Law, as in Circumcision, Observing the Sabbath, Sacrifices, etc, etc. These “works of the Law” cannot and will not save us (however, this by no means is to give any ground or excuse to hold anti-semetical ideas!). And do you forget Matthew 25: 31-46?

    When reading scripture, please remember that the Catholic Church has read the Bible in full context. You accuse Jon of the very crime that you are doing, reading merely the Pauline Epistles out of context. This is why James wrote his letter, to remind the people that faith ALONE is like man alone without a wife, only one half of the glorious whole that God created. It is both Faith, and [i:17nttdmh]Christian, Moral[/i:17nttdmh] Works that are needed. Works of Love. Not the Mosaic works. In full context, the Bible has always, does always, and will always support Catholic theology. Read the [i:17nttdmh]Full Bible[/i:17nttdmh] my friend, and not verses taken out of context.

    Peace be with you.

    #10036

    jim rapp
    Member

    I did not deny that the epistle of James is there. This website denies the existence of any Biblical texts stating that faith alone justifies our grace.



    “”Nowhere in the Bible does it say faith alone. This is un-Scriptural, since Christ tells us that to enter into life we must keep the commandments, hear the Church, do the will of His Father and much more with faith. Yes, actions plus faith.”



    I object to that quote from the publisher of this site. Its just not right and he clearly has not read the entire New Testament or he is ignoring the Pauline texts.

    I am not disputing the admonitions of James. They are there propounding faith and deeds as justification. Also, Paul is there saying faith alone is justification. Both are there …. take your pick.

    This is not me going against the Catholic faith, just against the quote from the publisher of this site.

    With respect to the entire Catholic Faith I’d refer you to :

    http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html

    #10037

    On the Contrary, what the Publisher (Jon) states is correct, far more than the heresy of “faith alone”. It seems that you, my friend, are the person that has not read any of the NT. If taken into the proper context, you see that the entire bible supports Church Doctrine.

    In turn, I wish that you would visit this site more, and this site :

    [url:36l7cemb]http://www.catholic.com/[/url:36l7cemb]

    Faith Alone is unscriptural, and is a PERFECT example of how individuals, away from the Church which is lead by the holy spirit, misinterpret scripture to a rather disgusting degree. And in terms of your statement of [i:36l7cemb]”They are there propounding faith and deeds as justification. Also, Paul is there saying faith alone is justification. Both are there …. take your pick.”[/i:36l7cemb], this shows a large misinterpretation as well as a failure to read what I stated. Paul states rightly that Faith leads to and is justification, and that it is not Mosaic Law that saves us. And James rightly explains that it is not Faith ALONE, which was what was misinterpreted by the letters of Paul. Do you not see the connection with the use of Abraham as an example?

    Faith and “Good Works” or, Christian deeds of Love and Charity, are complementary ways which lead us to Christ. Faith Alone is dead, and leads those who believe it to be dead. Whereas Good Works alone are also not sufficient. Both, however are. The same way that Christ is both Human and God. The same way that Man and Woman are, when joined, complete.

    So, to finish this, Faith Alone is, has been, and always will be, unscriptural, as unscriptural as Scripture Alone (Sola Scriptura) is. Faith and Good Works are both neccessary.

    #10038

    jim rapp
    Member

    Jon wrote on this site:

    “”Nowhere in the Bible does it say faith alone. This is un-Scriptural, since Christ tells us that to enter into life we must keep the commandments, hear the Church, do the will of His Father and much more with faith. Yes, actions plus faith.”

    now read Paul:

    “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. “ (Ephesians 2:8-10)

    27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:27-31)

    He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. (Colossians 2:13)

    20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. (Romans 3:20)


    Its there, in the Bible. It is not as Jon said “Nowhere in the Bible”.

    The Catholic Church has been pretty big on changing what the scriptures say. “The Eternal virginity of Mary” who we know by many spots in the scriptures bore brothers to Jesus …. pure fiction of man.

    I have to give props to the Church for getting rid of some of the nonsense it makes up, like the Pope speaking infallibly “Ex-Cathedra”. I give props for the Catholic Church for stopping the sale of “Indulgences”.

    The Catholic Church still has work to do with all the remaining vestiges of stuff it made up, usually for financial reasons. The ascendancy of Mary allowed by Constantine VI at the seventh ecumenical council to save the financial losses that were bankrupting the many shrines and local churches stemming from Constantine V having banned idolatry. Thus Constine VI resumed the pagan worship of Mary (Egyptian Goddess Isis) “Queen of Heaven” who was so roundly rebuked by Old Testament Prophets. The church should revisit the notion of the “Perpetual virginity of Mary” who bore several brothers to Christ per the scriptures. The Church should revisit the notion of a celibate clergy (The supposed first Vicar/Pope,Peter, was married), which was, like indulgences, a financial move to reduce church expenses, for it has lead to many abuses like Clerical Concubines, and most recently child molesting. (My own mother had a long term affair with a Catholic Priest in Southern California, now deceased, who rued the hypocrisy the celibacy rule had forced upon the clergy.)

    #10039

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    My specific emphasis is that the scriptures never say faith ALONE. Jim, the passages you quote support what I said, but you read into it something different. It does say by faith, but not faith ALONE. Never is faith exclusive of works.

    #10040

    jim rapp
    Member

    “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law” Romans 3:28

    “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works ….. Ephesians 2:8-9

    “apart from Observing the law” means our actions. “not as a result of works” is pretty clear.

    #10041

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    No, the Law is the law of Moses, the 600+ laws found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. The passage is setting up a comparison. It’s saying that following God isn’t done through benign rules like not eating pork, but rather through believing in Jesus Christ now that he has come.

    Besides, you are proposing that the Scriptures contradict themselves. James clearly states that faith without works is dead. If we look at the Scriptures as a whole your argument doesn’t hold.

    #10042

    Basically, this again supports the exact thing I just told you Jim. The “Law” refers to Mosaic Law. But this does not exclude us from practising Christian works of Love and Charity. With your logic Jim, scripture contradicts itself and therefore this cannot be an interpretation of scripture that is lead by the Holy Spirit. Whereas the Church, which IS lead by the Holy Spirit, interprets scripture and teaches with authority which was established by Jesus Christ.

    I explained this to you earlier. Furthermore, the Church never did (as far as I am aware of) stop Ex Cathedra Statements. The only made up nonsense sadly happens to be Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. Hopefully, Protestants of all brands and all kinds will finally realize that the Catholic Church has always and will always be lead by the Holy Spirit, and will stop taking parts of the bible out of context to fulfill their particular denomination.

    #10043

    jim rapp
    Member

    So “works” doesn’t equal “actions”?

    “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. “ (Ephesians 2:8-10)

    That is stretching your interpretation beyond what any honest minded observer could agree to.

    #10044

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster
    "jim rapp":1zloffua wrote:
    So “works” doesn’t equal “actions”?

    “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. “ (Ephesians 2:8-10)

    That is stretching your interpretation beyond what any honest minded observer could agree to.[/quote:1zloffua]
    Jim, what you are proposing is that the Scriptures contradict themselves, that God’s very word is self-contradicting.

    How do you reconcile this passage with James?

    #10045

    jim rapp
    Member

    I’m not proposing or interpreting anything. Read:

    “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. “ (Ephesians 2:8-10)

    Can’t get any plainer than that. Its just as explicit as James. You can “Interpret” it away but you could just as easily re-interpret James.

    If the church itself contradicts the inspired scripture via the eternal virginity of Mary despite her scriptural evidenced bearing of several brothers of Jesus, then why the concern over the face value disagreement between Paul & James?

    #10046

    But that’s the issue, Mary never had children besides Christ. Or do you believe that, as we are all considered brothers and sisters of Christ, we all have the same mother of Mary? Those are his cousins, my friend. Furthermore, the point is that with your flawed interpretation of scripture, you think that there is a disagreement between Paul and James. Whereas they are both, when fully understood, are on the EXACT, SAME, PAGE. It is merely you who sees the “disagreement”.
    The Catholic Church doesn’t contradict itself with Scripture. Those who are interpreting the Scriptures away from the Leadership of the Church sadly, are, as seen in your previous posts and refusal to read our posts. We’ve constantly said that these works that are in Ephesians are the MOSAIC WORKS. Not Christian works of Charity. Or, have you not read the Gospel? Matthew 25:31-46.
    Just because something is “explicit” doesn’t mean that the entire, full meaning of what someone is talking about is in the words if the context is lost. Whereas those who are not lead by the Holy Spirit are focused on scraps of Sacred Scripture (which is a part of Sacred Tradition), the Catholic Church is focused on the Entirety of Sacred Scripture.

    #10047

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster
    "jim rapp":3khe2erk wrote:
    I’m not proposing or interpreting anything. Read:

    “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. “ (Ephesians 2:8-10)

    Can’t get any plainer than that. Its just as explicit as James. You can “Interpret” it away but you could just as easily re-interpret James.[/quote:3khe2erk]
    So basically you are admitting that you cannot reconcile it with James, but rather you are choosing one section of the Bible over another.

    #10117

    Yarelis
    Member

    =) I enjoyed reading this discussion : You see…. I am a christian… just because Im christian doesnt mean I will agree with EVERYTHING a christian says… because I believe GODS word over man. Although the apostles were men aswell they were mean of authority given by Jesus himself…they are the last teachers of NEW laws and regulations after them and Jesus we are not to ADD OR TAKE AWAY from the HOLY SCRIPTURES. evidential in the bible … we are to take the New Testament as a WHOLE. So.. with that being said thats why I stopped attending catholic churches (I barely attended anyways because the whole environment was odd and questonable) and became christian because catholics tradition go against the bible (ESPECIALLY WORSHIPING MARY AND SAINTS) makes catholocism questionable

    god specifically says in the bible not to make any statues on things on earth or in the heavens or below and worship them. And he also said to worship him and HIM ONLY. Anyways that is not my main point of my discussion… We are to take the text of the bible as a whole… not taking one scripture out without reading the surrounding sentences for they give essence to the main topic of whats being said.

    THIS IS THE WAY IT GOES: the old testament: God infact new we were natural born sinners… and so sin followed sin and it continued… we were condemed by the law in the old testament… held captive in a way that we couldnt win … in which god decided to send his son to be a one time sacrafice for all since the sacraficing of animals time to time wasnt pleasing to god.. it was a constant reminder of how disobeying we were. Christ said he didnt come to abolish the law…but to fulfill. He lived the perfect life and re interpeted the old laws of Moses. In still keeping them but changing a couple (such as murder saying is your even angry your sinning) he even went as far to say that their are now two important commandments (love your god with all your heart and love others as you love yourself) and than he says to hang the rest of the laws and the laws of the prophets on this. Jesus is intellegent or to say our god is intellegent. If we keep those to commandments close to our hearts and do them accordingly we in no way can do any harm willingly.

    Someone who loves god and others truly… just cannot do harm or atleast will try their best not to do harm. Regardless we are natural born sinners and we will be till the end of time. weather we choose to pratice sin is our individual choice. Now THROUGH FAITH WE ARE SAVED. It doesnt say by faith we are going to heaven. We are saying through faith of jesus (to have faith in jesus is to say that you believe you are a sinner and he died on the cross for our sins that infact was born of the virgin mary coming to be our one time sacrafice and through him and HIM ONLY is how we get to his father. ) Now after you are saved.. through true faith and a open heart to WANT TO CHANGE for chirst… you must continue to obey his commandments. His NEWER version of the commandments … and seperate them from the old laws of ceremonial washes and sacraficing, traditions…and just all those other things from the old testament because the bible says if we hold onto these laws we will be seperated from god… the law condems us and so by hanging onto them we are saying jesuss death wasnt enough for us. No more sacrafice, or keeping of the sabbath for jesus IS THE SABBATH AND WE HAVE REST IN HIM.

    Now he also says let everyone be convinced in their own mind and what they choose to do be between him and god… and so be it. Now Jesus went one by one in the book of matthew re establishing the laws of moses in ways that were approchable and supporting of us. He was helping us not trying to give us a harder time. Jesus is the KEY to life. So if we keep the two most important commandments close to our hearts and HAVE FAITH in jesus continuously… you will subcontiously be able to fulfill the rest willingly because you have chirst in your heart and mind. Now you cannot have your salvation taken away… he says noone can snatch us from him.. and so we cant LOSE our salvation BUT we can definetly GIVE IT UP.

    If a person appears to have faith in christ but doesnt follow his teachings then he never had faith at all or lost his faith. Now if you continue to willigly want to disobey god you will be telling him that you dont care about your salvation anymore and infact GIVE IT BACK… god cannot lie it is impossible so he infact never takes your salvation away you give it away. through repentence you can ask for it back BUT everytime we leave and come back after hearing the word its worst infact the bible says it was better for us to have not known the word at all if we continue to leave and return after hearing the good news.

    You see as followers of god we daily will ask jesus to forgive our sins… because we are not perfect and we may do things that displease god but he knows who is purposely sinning and who isnt… Now repenting is different thats a fresh new start … it means you were not of god and you went a whole different way. So you can reconcile with god but know that to make it a habit is like crucifying jesus over and over again. So dont take advantage of his unconditional love and forgiving devotion to us. and so I agree to the fact that faith alone will not get us into heaven… its the works of jesus… following his laws… being holy just everything the jesus wants us to be BUT… FAITH IS THE KEY TO THEM ALL.

    Jesus emphasizes on FAITH ALOT. actually the BIBLE DOES. this is because FAITH CAUSES A PERSON TO TAKE HOLD OF THAT CERTAIN THING THEY BELIEVE IN WHOLE HEARTEDLY. SO SOMEONE WHO HAS TRUE FAITH IN CHRIST … LOVES HIM AND ALSO FEARS GOD… BECAUSE THEY HAVE FAITH THEY BELIEVE HE EXSIST AND SO HE WILL “WILLINGLY” WANT TO CHANGE not be forced.. god doesnt want robots if that was the case im pretty sure he could have made us perfect .. he wants those who truly love him and want to obey him in heaven. so we have our own free will. in deed the bible says faith without good works is dead and good works without faith is dead.

    A person who because a chrisitan after they learn the word and become closer to god should spread the good news, do good works, what would a chrisitan be if they just kept to themselves and never helped others. and likewise someone who IS doing good works, feeding the hungry, just a general good person but doesnt believe in god has a worthless set of deeds. UNDERSTAND?

    when we say faith alone …. we are not saying by faith only we will go to heaven.. meaning we dont have to do anything else. WE ARE SAYING THAT FAITH SAVES US INSTANTLY WHEN WE CONFESS WITH OUR LIPS JESUS IS WHO HE IS AND THE GOSPEL IS THE CENTER OF OUR FAITH… AND THEN WE KEEP OUR SALVATION AND MAKE IT INTO HEAVEN BY DOING HIS GOOD WORKS. …. the bible clearly says by good works a man will NOT be saved its by faith… because FAITH LEADS TO GOOD WORKS…JESUS KNOWS WHAT HE IS TEACHING AND WHAT HE IS SAYING…

    “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works ….. Ephesians 2:8-9 … by grace we are saved the grace of jesus… for his death on the calvary was his gift to us so that ANYONE who has faith in him WILL BE SAVED. that is a PROMISE. nOW AFTER YOU ARE SAVED THE REST IS UP TO YOU. Lets look at the definition of saved :
    save 1 (sv)
    v. saved, sav·ing, saves
    v.tr.
    1.
    a. To rescue from harm, danger, or loss.
    b. To set free from the consequences of sin; redeem.
    2. To keep in a safe condition; safeguard

    So jesus SAVES US from the CONSEQUENCES OF SIN if we have true faith in him… SAVES US thats all… now if we continue to have faith we will begin to do his good works because man alone CANNOT become sinnless we are PERPETUAL sinners… but having faith in jesus that he died for our sins breaks that curse.. in fact he broke that curse when he died but those who believe this will recieve that very gift =). The gift of the guidance of the Holy Spirit…he promises that he will never forsake us and will always be with us. anything you ask to be done in the NAME OF JESUS in great faith WILL BE DONE.

    Now in regards to the church having so much authority… You see jesus said the church is important. BUT the words of men may be decieving… Jesus loves the church because its were believers get together in support of one another… group worship and devotion TO HIM AND HIM ONLY.. because he says when there two or more gathered in his name their he is. he loves his church because thats where his poeple are the ones who follow him. he didnt give the church authority to make its own doctrines… and make up new rules such as ‘YOU HAVE TO GO TO SUNDAY MASS” JESUS DOESNT WANT ROBOTS OR PEOPLE FORCED TO DO ANYTHING FOR HIM… he wants those WHO WANT TO DO THINGS FOR HIM TO DO THEM. Just like it says when it comes to giving to the needy give what you heart tells you to… give what you can give… do not add or take away from the bible.. THE HOLY SCRIPTURES. that means EVERYTHING…including the teaching of the desciples … they said to stay guard to what THEY TAUGHT… because it was percisely from god… jesus..

    .. nowhere in the bible does it say to pray the rosary or to mary the hail mary full of garce and so on is complete repetition and JESUS WARNS AGAINST REPETITION and blabbing during prayer in the bible. BECAUSE HE KNEW WHAT WAS TO COME… they also say be careful of those who try to make apostles of themselves… trying to make those obide by there traditions… traditions of MEN.. for they were not in the scriptures so they were not from god… and oral teachings now in days is none sense.

    they even warned agaist word of mouth teaching because people were pretending to have spoken with the apostles therefore people can lie… men can lie but the word of god could never. he called the scriptures HOLY FOR HE HIMSELF READ FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES WHEN HE WANTED TO DECLARE HE INDEED WAS THE MESSAIAH. Everything Ive spoke of IS IN THE BIBLE…. I WAS SO INTO MY EXPLANATION I DIDNT PROVIDE THE VERSE BUT IF YOU GO TO THE FORUM EVERYTHING ELSE NOT ABOUT CATHOLICS AND GO TO THE SELECTION titled FAITH ALONE BY WEATHER… its the very top… I go into deatail about this and i provide tons of verses. … all in all the bible is to be read as a whole…. nothing taken or added.. and although some verses may have deeper meaning we are not to branch off so far from what was said. For many verses speak for themselves.

    MEN ARE NOT PERFECT AND MEN ARE ABLE TO LIE. only god is perfect so how on earth are priest and bishops able to say they on unfallable … when there have been many times where unfallable men of the catholic church corrected unfallable men…. even unfallable leaders of the catholic church corrected themselves. … a priest was asked why they do the eucharist and is it infact a sacraficing ritual… and he said that catholics would say that the eucharist infact IS the sacrafice of JESUS ON THE CALVARY.. that ITS NOT A SEPERATE SACRAFICE FROM THE ONE JESUS DID ON THE CROSS BUT ITS ACTUALLY THE SACRAFICE ITSELF. (youtube: Catholicism; Crisis of Faith) I am totally scratching my head at this. this totally goes against scripture… jesus was the one time sacrafice and it says in the bible there was no need for anymore sacrafice … so what was said by this PRIEST is in fact incorrect… this proves he is not unfallable. For priest believe that the leaders of the church get devine answers from god and what they say goes.. they cant make mistakes…. so if I were catholic i would have to believe what he just said was correct…. = / … childish

    believe me my friends noone but god can tell you what is write and my our god speaks… so pray that he may guide you to your own understanding and so that noone may decieve you. I believe the bible and the bible alone for the bishops and priest are just MEN.. and MEN MAKE MISTAKES. the apostles of jesus end with the final twelve and in revelation jesus tells his apostle write what youve seen in a book and seal it… the book of revelation is the last book… nomore teaching come after that.

    SO BY FAITH IS CORRECT… BECAUSE BY FAITH ALONE A PERSON CAN FOLLOW GODS COMMANDS AND ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. we state faith to prove our seperation from traditions of the catholic church… for my friend… kneeling and kissing the feet of mary is NOT going to get you into heaven. praying the rosary bead by bead will NOT get you into heaven….Jesus said we have rest in him not Mary…dont get me wrong Mary was special but she was just like us.. for she knew she needed a savior and called herself the lord handmaid, she was humble and a servant of god… reciting the same prayer over and over will NOT get you into heaven…

    BUT BY THE GRACE OF GOD WE ARE SAVED… and BY THAT VERY FAITH IN WHICH SAVED US WILL HELP US KEEP OUR LIFEJACKET ON… to stay above the surface of the waters of decption that soaks us in false thoughts and wants to drown us with fishy regulations, OUR FAITH KEEPS OUR HEADS OUT OF THE DEEP LIES SO THAT THE WAVES OF TRIALS IN LIFE WILL NOT TIP US…OUR ARMS MAY GET TIERD BUT JESUS IS OUR LIFEJACKET AND HE WONT LET US DROWN. … faith saves…. the scriptures are sacred as stated in the bible and is our only proof of the teaching of jesus… living in faith keeps you saved so when our lord comes he will take those who believed Jesus is the ONLY WAY. as stated in OUR bible. Amen may the lord glorify your thoughts and allow you to see the truth and the truth shall set you free. GLory to god and god only by FAITH can one succeed. =)

    #10132

    LARobert
    Participant

    Again Yarelis shows the prejudices she has been taught about the Catholic Faith.

    We should start here with the Worship of Mary and the Saints. If Yarelis read Catholic sources rather than the distorted lies about the Church she has been fed, she would know that the Catholic Church explicitly forbids the worship of anyone except God. Mary and the Saints may be given honor, and veneration, but never worshiped as God.

    As for adding or taking away from Scripture, there are only two or three Protestant Churches that have not taken away from Scripture. Most Protestants and Protestant Bibles have deleted several books of the Bible that the Church has always accepted as Canonical. When you read the New Testament in the original Greek, you see that the quotes from the Old Testament are from the Septuagent (LXX) which includes all the books of the Old Testament found in any Catholic Bible. Jesus and the Apostles accepted the LXX, it was those teachings that Protestants did not want to accept which were contained in the books they deleted which caused Protestants to change the Bible.

    Her Sabbath emphasis points to the errors of the SDA. If we are going to discuss adding to the Scriptures, early SDA beliefs included placing the writings of Ellen G While as equal to the revelations found in Scripture. While many SDA followers no longer follow this or other teachings that were formerly held by their sect, some still hold “Sister White’s” writings to be equal to scripture.

    Without commenting further on the non-scriptural ideas in her posts I will note that one of the “proofs” of the non-chrisitan origins of the Catholic Church that the SDA promote is that the Tiara of the Pope has written across it, Vicaris Filii Dei. (Vicar of the Son of God) converting the letters into roman numerals you get the number 666. However none of the Papal tiaras have that written across them and it is not a title ever used by Popes. However if you use the same criteria to isolate the letters of the name Ellen G While into roman numerals, her name does add up to 666. Just an example of the poor scholarship and lengths that the SDA reaches to prove the faulty theology and history they profess.

    #10142

    LARobert – Yes, that’s the thing about many Protestant sects, they get brainwashed into believing what they are told about the CC without even bothering to see if it is correct. I find that many are so deeply entrenched in their anti-Catholicism that all they do is accuse the CC of lying and keep repeating the same old diatribe “Catholics lie, Catholics lie!” If Yarelis would only have taken a little time and checked as to whether it is true that Catholics worship Mary, she would have found that the CC explicitly forbids the worship of Mary and came against a heresy in the fourth and fifth century known as Collydrianism.
    But does that put the “Catholics worship Mary”, to rest? No. The SDA’s, worship anti-Catholicism and will disregard any facts to the contrary and prefer to wallow in their you-know-what.

    Also a little searching and they would find that “The Sabbath” does not translate to “Saturday”, but actually just means day of rest and the early Christians started meeting on the first day of the week to celebrate “The Lords Day” which we continue to celebrate on Sundays.

    #10146

    LARobert
    Participant

    We can say the same thing about Jim Rap’s diatribe. First when it comes to works, Catholics have always differentiated between the work of Christ in His Passion Death and Resurrection, and simple human works. In fact the Catholic Church does not recognize beneficial spiritual effects of works which are not done in union with Christ. As an example…

    The Catholic Church encorages Spitirual and Corporal works of mercy.

    Corporal Works of Mercy are normally defined as these seven acts. The first six enumerated in Matt. Chapter 25 the seventh is derived from Tobit,
    To feed the hungry
    To give drink to the thirsty.
    To shelter the homeless.
    To clothe the naked.
    To visit and ransom the captive, (prisoners).
    To visit the sick.
    To bury the dead.

    Now anyone can do these things, and feel wonderful about themselves for doing it. However for them to be worthy of spiritual merit, one must be in a state of Grace, and do them with the intention of uniting the works with those of Jesus, and not for self glory. They are elevated to a spiritual work because they are done for the glory and honor of God.

    Most Protestants have been ill informed, they have been taught that Catholics believe that they can earn their way into heaven by their own works, and that they don’t need Jesus or the Cross to do so. The truth that the Catholic Church has from the time of the Apostles taught Christ Crucified, and that when we come to Christ and follow Him, we are not simply saved with no way out of our salvation, but need to follow His teachings. He told us we needed to be baptized, He laid hands on the Apostles and breathed on them, telling them that they had the authority to forgive sins in His name. We read in the Bible that the Church is founded on Jesus, we also read that it was founded on the Apostles, and we read that Peter the Rock would be where the Church was to be founded. Well can all these things be true? Yes, We as the mystical body of Christ have Christ Jesus as our head. He most assuredly gave His authority to Peter, and to the Apostles. We read in the NT that as Jesus laid hands on the Apostles, they too laid hands on others, giving them the authority to lead the Church and do what Jesus comissioned. It’s more than just saying I have Faith in Jesus. It is putting that faith into action, and living a life according to the Teachings of Jesus, both those in the Bible, and those handed down by word, as St. Paul writes.

    As to Purgatory in the Bible, if you read the whole Bible, not the edited Bible wherein Luther and other Protestants removed entire books, you will read from 2 Maccabees, that there was a collection taken to send to the Temple in Jerusalem to have sacrifice offered for the souls of the dead. If we want to be intellectually and historically honest, we can’t just chuck out books of the Bible that disagree with or have difficult teachings.

    #10151

    LARobert – Re your post #16, correct me if I’m wrong, but here again the SDA’s don’t understand. The Pope’s title is not Vicarius Filii Dei but Vicarius Christi which does not add up to 666. But alas!! It’s so much more fun being anti-Catholic and spreading falsehoods than it is to know the truth and have to choke on their own words. After all humility can be soooo embarrassing to one’s ego.
    It boggles the mind how many Protestants think that the CC, who after years of careful study, prayer, and guidance put together a set of books that in no way contradicted what was being taught for 300+ years, proclaims those books as being the word of God and the true teachings of God, then they come along 1500+ years later and read these Books that the CC put together and then accuse the CC of going against those same books she Canonized.

    God Bless.

    #10152

    LARobert
    Participant

    TCWITPAFOT1T315:

    I pop in from time to time, so let me take this time to give you a belated welcome.

    Yes the SDA and other “usual suspects” who have been shown to have faulty history continue on with their misinformation. It is interesting to note all the falsehoods they propose without fact checking, and then summarely dismiss anything from Catholic Sources.

    Examples include “The long trail of blood” A few Baptists still use it as proof that the Baptist Church was the Apostolic Church, and that the Catholic Church was created by Constantine, and then started persecuting the Baptists. Well until about fourty years ago when Baptist historians admitted that the author made up the history in the late 1800’s and that the Baptists were formed in England after the Anglican Church split from the Catholic Church.

    Then there is the whole Alberto series of comics published by Chick. Alberto, as his followers claim was amember of the “Jesuit Order” and a “Priest-Bishop” of the “Old Roman Catholic Church” who was charged with infiltrating the Protestant Churches of Central and South America to destroy them. He started reading the Bible for himself, and left the Church. Well aside from the Fact that the Jesuits are a Society and not an Order, that there is no such thing as a Priest-Bishop, and the Old Roman Catholic Church is a collection of Churches that broke away from the Roman Catholic Church in the 1860’s his history and tales become even more bizzare. He claims that the Jesuits founded Islam, and sent a nun to seduce Mohammed, and start the religion. This even though it was over 700 years before St. Ignatius was born and founded the Jesuits. He also claims that the Jesuits founded Nazism, and killed Jesuit priests to cover up the fact that they were the founders. Even Anti-Catholic former priests like the late Bart Brewer stated that Alberto was undoubtibly a fraud, after interviewing Alberto with the intent of hiring him for his anti-catholic organization, Brewer said that Alberto knew nothing about Catholic theology, and for a man who claimed to have four PhDs in Catholic Theology before Vatican II, he knew no latin etc.

    But they swallow this hook line and sinker.

    One of the best examples though is Lorraine Bottiner, a Presbyterian Minister who wrote one of the favorite anti-Catholic tomes. In it he tell us that Cardinal Newman wrote a passage denouncing the Infallibility and Universal Authority of the Pope. Well even though he provides no footnotes, or sources, he misleads readers when he tells them, “This from the pen of a Roman Catholic Cardinal” Well Bottiner fails to tell his reader that Newman, a Convert to the Catholic Faith wrote that when he was a Protestant Minister, and an Anti-Catholic. He does not tell us that after the study of history, he became convinced that the Catholic Church is true, and converted. Later when he wrote his Apologia, he shows how he once believed various things, including the above, and now has come to reject the false anti-catholic teachings of his youth.

    Sources like these which have been disproved over and over again, are held by Anti-Catholics to be truly infallible, and anyone who questions their sources or corrects their misinformation must in their minds be followers of the Anti-Christ.

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