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March 29, 2005 at 4:46 am #1003
snippet taken from another thread:
[quote:2z39czb7]during which you find out that we’re all predestined to hell or heaven and there isn’t much you can do about it[/quote:2z39czb7]
See, I don’t get that. What would be the point of joining the church if you’re already going to one place or the other and nothing you can do will change that?March 29, 2005 at 6:57 am #4009
Elka, this is what happens when you warp God’s Grace and man’s free will.
Luther and Calvin just didn’t get it. I don’t blame them on an intellectual level because it is hard to understand. Once again another reason why we need an authoritative Church.
It is one of the most mysterious and difficult questions in the history of both Christian theology and theistic philosophy. Tell me Elka, how do you see man’s free will and God’s Grace working together?
Seems to me like God is pulling strings and there is nothing you can do about it. Although God is more then capable doing that. I dont see what that is accomplishing for the individual. Maybe you can enlighten me?
In the Catholic mind God seeks a relationship and always allows us to choose. To me, that is a very beautiful thing.
God let’s me choose !!!!!
God have mercy on me and pour your loving Grace on me.
Holy Mother, pray that I may have the know how and strength to respond to God’s Grace.
~VictorMarch 29, 2005 at 7:56 am #4010
[quote:1hxxqf4d]Luther and Calvin just didn’t get it.[/quote:1hxxqf4d]
Well, Luther didn’t believe in predestination, just basically that everything we do is sinful.March 29, 2005 at 4:34 pm #4011
I was talking about how [b:1me4f2nf]God’s Grace and mans free will works[/b:1me4f2nf].
That is what Luther didnt’ get. Which basically goes into many different doctrines. Predestination being one of them. Not to sure what Luthers position on Predestination was exactly but I do know that the Church does believe in Predestination as well. We just see it differently.
Here is a link for those interested.
~VictorMarch 29, 2005 at 10:37 pm #4013
The problem with predestination is this: there ends up being one will in the universe. This gets confusing, because of all the people that believe, for instance, that the young lady in Florida currently being starved to death is against the will of God, but have to believe, doctrinally, that it is at the same time in accord with God’s will.
I get a headache just thinking about it.
In dealing with the predestination statements in Scripture, C. S. Lewis wrote to the effect that humans always get turned around when they speak of a being that has its existence outside time and mortality. There’s no way to discuss it without getting confused.
I was compelled to learn about Catholicism because of two things — G. K. Chesterton (he was fat and smoked cigars — I resonate with that!) and the teaching of predestination. So, if I were you RC’s, I’d keep my objections to predestination to yourselves, because it might be sending many reformed churchpeople your way!March 29, 2005 at 10:49 pm #4016
So God sees the future and makes things happen and there is nothing we can do about it. Is this what you mean?
Cause this is not what I was objecting to.
What I object to is that God has full control of me.
PS-Send your churchpeople our way. We will welcome them. ” title=”Smile” />March 29, 2005 at 10:53 pm #4017
Elka, you know who Tim Enloe is?March 30, 2005 at 3:10 am #4020
Nope, sorry, can’t say that I have.March 30, 2005 at 4:30 pm #4022
Elka, no elaboration?
I’m just trying to understand your position.
If the Bible teaches it then I will submit. No matter how unpopular it may be.
As a sidebar I would say that “once saved always saved” is alot more
marketable then the Catholic position. There is nothing unpopular about that. It deffinately sells. Who doesn’t want to be saved and not be able to lose it?March 30, 2005 at 6:05 pm #4024
[quote:1jjix80b]Elka, no elaboration?[/quote:1jjix80b]
I don’t think he saw your questions.March 30, 2005 at 9:43 pm #4026
I was posting at work (quietly) and my attention was scattered at best.
I don’t think I made myself clear — perhaps I’m confusing my posts in other threads. I don’t understand how anyone finds the Calvinist approach to predestination — fatalism and God’s will as the only one of consequence — as attractive or comforting. In fact, it is that one issue, and the notion of election without man’s involved will, that makes me one unusual Presbyterian deacon.
I am not quite at the point that I could say, “The church says it, so that settles it for me.” Perhaps that is my failing, or lack of faith?
So, stigmus, I can’t really argue that position because I don’t hold that position. Every time it comes up, I think of God saying to Abraham that He was going down to see for himself what was going on in Sodom and Gamorrah. Interesting reading, that…
Oops, the boss..March 31, 2005 at 12:06 am #4029
Actually I was talking about the “once saved always saved” as comforting. The Calvinist view of predestination is definately not comforting. But the same can be said about some Catholic doctrines as well.
What postition do you not hold?
That men and women are chosen (Predestined) to be saved and they have no choice in the matter?
Maybe I misunderstood but you said:
[quote:2idcn3j1]The church says it, so that settles it for me[/quote:2idcn3j1]
Were you talking about the Presbyterian Church?
I had no idea that a Presbyterian member had to submit their interpretations to Church leaders. Is this correct?
~VictorMarch 31, 2005 at 2:44 am #4031
The problem, as I see it, with “Once Saved Always Saved” is in the getting there. First, you have to ignore lots of scripture that indicates that one can lose one’s salvation. The R. C. Sproul response would be that if one manages to fall away, well, one wasn’t saved in the first place.
At this point, the believer starts to thrash around, trying to sort it out. What do you go by? Is there supposed to be some interior witness? When you get this assurance, does it change you? If so, where is it? What is meant by ‘accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior?’ What must I do? Will I fall off my ride, like Paul? Will I suddenly turn into a different person? Where are the fruits of the Spirit? When do I see a change in my expectations and behavior? Why do I still want the same old sinful stuff? Where is the tangible evidence of this experience?
These are all questions I’ve been asked by reformed believers, in the privacy of personal conversation.
I suppose that some folks come to an easy decision in regard to this, and have no problem. I’m not one of them, unfortunately.
Let me back up and say that I don’t accept the Reformed doctrine of predestination, except that, as I wrote earlier, I can understand it in the C. S. Lewis sense — that God, being outside of time (or perhaps a better way is to say time is ‘inside’ of God?) knows and acts in individual lives in a way that certainly looks like determinism.
You know, in writing that, I’m struck by a) my poor excuse for an explanation, and b) the ‘counting angels dancing on the head of a pin’ quality of the topic.
The presbyterian church can be an almost schizophrenic experience. Or at least it feels that way to me. Have you read Marcus Grodi’s story? He was a presbyterian minister, or so I gather, and he tells about finding out that, because majority rules, he was in the minority on a point of doctrine in the church he pastored. His side was voted down.
Thereis a tradition of individual interpretation of scripture. On the other hand, when they made me a deacon this year, I was asked to affirm that I held scripture to be the word of God, the Book of Confession to be valid as a kind of digest of scriptural belief, and the Book of Order as the method by which church polity and policy were to be conducted. Part of that is church discipline, which states that certain procedures are followed if a person is found to be conducting him or her self in a way that goes counter to the above mentioned documents.
That sounds like a definite authority system to me — and I don’t mind it. But it keeps bringing me back to the question — from where does this authority come?
I thought it was remarkable when my minister stated that, in the personal study of scripture, if one came across an understanding or interpretation that had never, in 2000 years of church history, been written of or practiced before, then you should look out. That’s a pretty healthy attitude, I think. But it still doesn’t make me deal with the ‘frozen chosen’ topic any easier.March 31, 2005 at 4:40 am #4033
[quote:2b2gkkwk]I thought it was remarkable when my minister stated that, in the personal study of scripture, if one came across an understanding or interpretation that had never, in 2000 years of church history, been written of or practiced before, then you should look out. That’s a pretty healthy attitude, I think.[/quote:2b2gkkwk]
Did you tell him that in 1450 years of church history predestination had never been practiced or that in fact many of the things that the Reformers taught were not practiced until that time?
[quote:2b2gkkwk]The presbyterian church can be an almost schizophrenic experience. Or at least it feels that way to me. Have you read Marcus Grodi’s story? He was a presbyterian minister, or so I gather, and he tells about finding out that, because majority rules, he was in the minority on a point of doctrine in the church he pastored. His side was voted down. [/quote:2b2gkkwk]
I think that’s the problem with those democratic churches. Who helps to preserve what it authentic and what isn’t? If it’s all voted upon by the people then who is really guiding them? How can one shepherd a flock that chooses its own way to go?March 31, 2005 at 4:04 pm #4040
Things that were clarified:
[quote:1ikvwvte]I’m not one of them, unfortunately.[/quote:1ikvwvte]
So is your view of salvation more in line with the RCC?
[quote:1ikvwvte]I don’t accept the Reformed doctrine of predestination[/quote:1ikvwvte]
Really? Am I missing something? I thought you said you were Presbyterian? Aren’t both doctrines above taught by the Presbyterian church?
[quote:1ikvwvte]You know, in writing that, I’m struck by a) my poor excuse for an explanation, and b) the ‘counting angels dancing on the head of a pin’ quality of the topic. [/quote:1ikvwvte]
It’s not easy to explain, I understand. But could it be because:
A) It shows an evil depiction of God.
Not taught in the Bible.
C) It’s unhistorical.
D) Man can’t even begin to rationalize it, not even an abstract way.
[quote:1ikvwvte]Have you read Marcus Grodi’s story?[/quote:1ikvwvte]
Yes I have.
[quote:1ikvwvte]from where does this authority come?[/quote:1ikvwvte]
Excellent question. That can be a topic for another post.
[quote:1ikvwvte]I thought it was remarkable when my minister stated that, in the personal study of scripture, if one came across an understanding or interpretation that had never, in 2000 years of church history, been written of or practiced before, then you should look out. That’s a pretty healthy attitude, I think. [/quote:1ikvwvte]
I’m surprised he would say that. Sounds very Catholic. Wonder if your pastor has tooken up an in depth look into history to see if that is the case with the doctrines he teaches. Many that have done just that struggle and goes in the same route as Marcus Grodi. Rome sweet home. ” title=”Wink” />
PS-Kinda went off on tangents. This was supposed to be about Predestination.March 31, 2005 at 4:06 pm #4041
Posed good questions Jon. Perhaps we can take this topic for another post.
~VictorMarch 31, 2005 at 8:55 pm #4042
Stigmus, I can’t remember if it was in this thread or not, but I made a statement SOMEWHERE about considering myself a “Presbyolic” or a “Cathoterian.”
In all honesty, if I were given my druthers, I’d have converted a while ago. Unfortunately, my family creates concerns. Perhaps I’m equivocating, here, and I’ll own up to the probability of that, but it is difficult — even at my age — to face the anger and disapointment of a 71 year old mom and dad who are self-described “anti papists.” Yes, in this day and age…
My wife and I have discussed this at great length. One day, you might be hearing that I have finally signed up for RCIA, who knows? Perhaps you’d be willing to pray for my wife and me?
On the coming home network, I read a post and replies about a woman who is a convert (unstated former tradition) to Catholicism that complains about the worldliness of Catholics. Believe me, in my wide-ranging experience, Catholics ain’t the only ones that have sizeable populations of those who go through the motions. In fact, I’m one who could be said to be going through the motions at this point…
Sorry, didn’t mean to get off on a personal tear, but my daddy always said if they sewed my lips together my tongue would flap my brain to death, which I guess applies to posting here, too!March 31, 2005 at 9:39 pm #4043
Elka, no problem, we are here to help. Best thing I can do is answer your questions and pray for you and your wife.
Not sure if you’ve read my Intro. but I come from an anti-Catholic tradition. Took me a while to come to grips with many things. When I met my wife (cradle Catholic) my anti-Catholicism burst out. I have to admit I was quite hard on her. ” title=”Sad” /> Even to the point of making her cry. Made our relationship very difficult as you may imagine. Finally my wife had enough of my anti-Catholic ways and said:
“I think we are going to have to stop having these religious debates. Go do your own research and seek what you are looking for. If you are not at peace after the research then we will have to go our seperate ways because I am going to die a Catholic.”
Her saying that really got me even more irritated because I wanted her to answer my questions. We continued dating and after almost 3 years of I finally went to RCIA classes and here I am a Catholic now. Was not easy at all. But the evidence was just to heavy on my conscious.
~VictorApril 5, 2005 at 12:30 am #4074
Well, I have now!
I played a big part in getting us off the topic a bit. So, let me ask, what is the Catholic position on predestination? I’d like to hear it in the words of believers rather than just read it in the Catechism…April 5, 2005 at 4:51 am #4079
What I do know is that it’s not a predestination like the JW’s. It’s not where 144,000 people are saved only and the rest are doomed. Nor is it a Calvinistic predestination.
It’s far more complicated than that and I think it treads somewhat on the fact that God is omniscient and omnipotent and transcends time.
I’ll let you make sense of this non-Catechism explanation: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
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