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June 23, 2004 at 6:17 am #850
So, how does one go about loving the sinner yet hating the sin?
The dilemma that I see is that if you show a person love that is in deep continuous sin coudn’t that be misconstrued as approving of that person’s sin?
But then again, you don’t want to alienate that person… ” title=”Confused” />
Tips, suggestions, comments?June 23, 2004 at 6:31 am #2988AnonymousInactive
Make it known that you disapprove of the behavior.
How often has my mother told me, “I love you but I hate what you’ve done.”June 23, 2004 at 1:48 pm #2989AnonymousInactive
I like your answer Benedict. However I think letting someone know that you disapprove of their actions is alot easier in the context of parent to child. I am a mom and don’t have that much problem guiding the behaviours of my children—-but when I go outside those parameters with other people I feel so patronizing, condescending , and sef-righteous—-even though my intention is to help a person walk more with Jesus than on the rocky path. I have said before I hold back on my activism for the Lord for that very reason.
I guess I try to show compassion to the sinner, and hope that all my other behaviors are a witness to Christian life- But I still get stuck as Jon relates-how do you point out that you do not approve of the sin?June 23, 2004 at 1:52 pm #2990AnonymousInactive
might I add? Thank you Jon—this is an excellent question! I await more replies ” title=”Very Happy” />June 23, 2004 at 2:54 pm #2991
Yeah, I think Pam has a good point – it’s much easier in the context of a parent-child relationship.
But what I am wondering is how you would go about doing this with a friend or a brother or sister? You can’t just say, “yo, I think what you’re doing is horrible, but I still love you” and then be able to spend quality time with that person. There’s probably always going to be a great level of uncomfortability and tension between the 2 people that does not make great conditions for still loving the other person.June 28, 2004 at 2:56 pm #2992AnonymousInactive
Such a good question! I guess I would pray, and especially for the open heart of the person you want to talk to and an opportunity to talk to him or her, and then if an opportunity presents itself take the initiative to mention something. Definitely you are right on the head- love the person, hate the sin. Make sure to be talking out of real love for the spiritual/physical well-being of the person- indeed what is love if it is not going to strive for the best for the other person. ” title=”Smile” />September 22, 2004 at 1:37 pm #3387AnonymousInactive
I am going to dig into this question again. Hindsight is almost 100%perfect.
I recently carried on a long conversation with a relative who is in poor health and has a depressed attitude that goes with the poor health.
When I say conversation, I mean that mostly I listened and spoke up only to prompt more conversation. I felt this person really liked the attention of the phone call. So in that respect it was a very good thing.
The problem? Every other sentence had the words jesus christ
and not in a reverant manner. That left the other sentences to have the words god damn. (you see I feel so bad that I will not capitalize those words-in that one conversation they were used in a poor manner so many times that I do not want to repeat the act)
The good feeling of being compassionate was quickly overcome with the guilt of letting my Lord and Savior being so disrespected.This followed me around for days later.
Like I said, hindsight is perfect—-I know how I should have handled it-gently pointing out the wrong, or even saying something like,”oh-let me know when you want to pause for prayer for we have been calling out God’s name quite a lot, I am sure He is all ears waiting to see what we want”
To a lesser degree this kind of thing happens ALL the time even among parishoners-especially where I live. I can pray at the moment, and I can pray about it later. But does anyone have any helpful suggestions on keeping God and His name respected in our conversations with others?September 23, 2004 at 1:14 pm #3388
[quote:3u4eg52x]But does anyone have any helpful suggestions on keeping God and His name respected in our conversations with others?[/quote:3u4eg52x]
Pam, I think you hit the nail right on the head. I wish I was as clever as you about how to respond to people like that.
I’ll have to remember this:
“oh-let me know when you want to pause for prayer for we have been calling out God’s name quite a lot, I am sure He is all ears waiting to see what we want”September 25, 2004 at 3:58 pm #3389AnonymousInactive
I’ll be the trouble maker on this subject. I think that you do need to show love to those people just like our Lord Jesus Christ who ate with “tax collectors and sinners”. He didn’t come down hard on them and force them to change their ways before he associated with them, as the Pharisees did of that time. It was the love of his Sacred Heart that won peoples hearts.
Yet for those of us who are Christians, who are part of the Church, the expectations have been raised and are continually raised. We are called to be Holy.
[i:45r6z3by]Therefore, gird up the loins of your mind, live soberly, and set your hopes completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Like obedient children, do not act in compliance with the desires of your former ignorance but, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, for it is written, “Be holy because I [am] holy.” 1 Peter 2.13-16[/i:45r6z3by]
It is with Christians that we need to be firm (by Christians I mean Catholics). Remember the Corinthian church that was started by St. Paul? In his first letter to that church, he heard of the tolerance of a completely open immoral act that was committed by one of the [i:45r6z3by]parishioners[/i:45r6z3by] and said to “deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord”.
St Paul writes about not associating with other immoral Christians and warns against not maintaining moral purity.
So my conclusion is to love those who are lost and need to be cleansed, since Christ “did not come to save the righteous but the unrighteous.” But when dealing with fellow Christians, they have been called to a new life and are a new creation through baptism and they need to live in cooperation to God’s Sanctifying Grace.September 29, 2004 at 4:36 pm #3393AnonymousInactive
Peace be with you!
WOW! What an awesome post and replies! The Sprit truly is working through all of you and that is the Glory of God!
This is a very poignant topic. For I have had to deal with this same situation with a friend at work. First I have to really understand what the definitions of love and sin were. So I turned to my trust Bible ” title=”Smile” /> and the perfect definition appeared in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7
“4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.”
Now that I understood that Love was more then a Valentine’s Day card or of a physical nature, as TV and Movies try to make us believe, I need to learn what sin was. So again off to the best research tool I know, my Bible ” title=”Smile” />
I found several good definitions that I think get to the many levels of sin. First, 1 John 3:4;
“4 Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him.”
and Proverbs 14:34;
34 Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people.
The Proverb I think explains what the reaction to sin by people is or should be.
Now how does all this relate to answering the original question, you may ask your self. Well, having these definitions to work with gives me scope and direction on how I am to love and how I am to hate sin. How is that you ask? Christ’s life is the greatest example of all, through patience, perseverance; even in the midst of criticisms, true love of God’s children, and forgiveness can this be done.
So with my friend at work I would talk with him and offer help when need or asked. When his acts or his dialog lead to sin I would tell him that I did not approve of that which he was doing or speaking and through example (my own) turned from that and tried to be righteous in all I did. This can hurt too because at first you friend my call you names, Jesus freak among them, but over time when the come to see and realize that by loving (as earlier defined), leaving a righteous life, can bring great peace, joy, ad success in many areas. Unfortunately this is not an over night thing and requires great patience (love) and time.
I hope this helps in some way.
Fred,March 12, 2005 at 8:11 am #3842AnonymousInactive
Would you curse a blind man whose eyes were closed to the sights of the world? Or would you offer to lead him along his way? And if that blind man were to find love with another who too was blind would you curse that union? Or would you rejoice in their love and offer to lead them both?
Think of this my fellow Christains when you see those who you think are blind.March 20, 2005 at 8:03 am #3891
[quote:x7nqvgpx]Would you curse a blind man whose eyes were closed to the sights of the world? Or would you offer to lead him along his way? And if that blind man were to find love with another who too was blind would you curse that union? Or would you rejoice in their love and offer to lead them both?
Think of this my fellow Christains when you see those who you think are blind.[/quote:x7nqvgpx]
How can “blind” people have love if they are “blind”?March 20, 2005 at 7:01 pm #3902AnonymousInactive
It’s a mystery.March 27, 2005 at 5:33 am #3957AnonymousInactive
Thanks for posing this topic Jon. This topic is dear to my heart because I come from what many would call a dysfunctional family. So dysfunctional that I often get surprised I came out somewhat normal (lol…that sounds funny). Anyways, most all my cousins and my younger brother are deep into gangs. Everytime I go to family outings or a simple visit I am faced with the dilema of loving them and hating the sin. It is very difficult for me. Although I made it clear to them how I feel it still gets difficult from time to time. So I just pray for patience and compassion.
~Victor MesinaMarch 27, 2005 at 3:39 pm #3965
[quote:q6ayx7f3]Anyways, most all my cousins and my younger brother are deep into gangs.[/quote:q6ayx7f3]
That’s very interesting. Do you ever feel afraid to be with them or do you know they will not hurt you because you are family?March 27, 2005 at 6:13 pm #3975AnonymousInactive
Not afraid at all. One of the main reasons is because they are family. They may annoy me or frustrate me but thats about it. Aside from that Hispanic gangs follow very strict rules that if not followed will be killed or hurt.
Its Gangs 101. Not that this stops them from doing something real stupid but its something that is the back of their minds.
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