Welcome “Bible Student” Your posting, while I am sure sincere speaks volumes of the sources that you have been taught by. To lump Macabees with Judas is quite a stretch. Since the entire Chrisitan World up to the point of Luther accepted Maccabees, and it has only been after Luther broke with The Church that anyone called it into question. Judas, along with the Gospel of Thomas, and several dozen other books were rejected by the Early Church and never had a place in the Canon. So I would ask you to do a bit of fact checking.

Catholics believe 100% that our redemtion comes from the Incarnation, Passion, Death and Rising from the Dead of Jesus. The difference is how Protestants diverge from the teachings of Scripture and the Apostles on how that Redemtion, and Justification of the sinner is applied. Most Protestants (Especially the OSAS crowd) would lead you to believe a non-scriptural misrepresentation of salvation as something I do by accepting Jesus as My Savior, from that point forward, I have no responsibility, because I give all past present and future sinful actions to Jesus. This form of magical thinking is contrary to what Jesus and the Apostles taught, and to what the Scriptures tell us.

Since it seems you have more than one bone to pick with the Catholic Faith, please elaborate and ask point blank the questions you have about the Catholic Church. I’m sure you will find the answers from Catholic sources are quite a bit different than the misrepresentations of the Church you’ve apparently been taught.

You may also want to read the Catholic Position here…..

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory_qa.html4

http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3302

I know it can be awfully frightening for some who post what they think will the one great proof that the Catholic Church teaches error to look at what the Church actually teaches rather than what they are told we believe, you should give it a chance, and learn from the source.

Wow, James. Please remember that it was the Church that produced the Scriptures and not the other way around. The process of salvation occurred before it was recorded and compiled into the Scriptures. “Biblical salvation” is a bit of an oxymoron because you assume that all things start and end with the bible, but again the bible came well after Christian communities had been established.

You want sources? Google is your friend, but I will list a few for you:

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/artic … icole.html (scroll down to section II Orthodoxy and III Christocentricity. The remarks on this page about the Catholic Church are incorrect in that the OT canon that was originally chosen in 395 was an acceptable Hebrew canon. There was disagreement even amongst Jews as to which books belonged in their own canon and which ones didn’t. Sounds familiar…)

http://users.rcn.com/lanat/biblehistory.htm

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/why- … bible.html

Personalities of the Reformers aside, there is something to this discussion that it seems many overlook when shoring up the battlements.

Both Protestants and Catholics agree that Sin, both original and actual have an effect on our soul. How we look at those effects does however seem to me to be very different.

From what I understand of Protestant beliefs generally, (Lutheran, Calvanist, Baptist, and the various “Evangelical” sects) Original sin, which is not our fault, but does effect us makes us Reprobate, so utterly unacceptable to God that He must reject us, and we are only worthy of Hell fire. When one is “Saved” he remains a pitiful sinner, unworthy of heaven, but Jesus’ life and passion blinds God’s ability to see how defective we are, and Jesus merits cover up or mask any and all sins past, present and future that we may commit, giving us a place in heaven, however unworthy we are.

Catholic Theology discusses Original Sin as the “Felix Culpa” or Happy Fault, for we sould not have come to know our Savior if sin had not entered into the world. That is to say, while the Stain of Original Sin and actual sin weaken our relationship with God, it does not cut us off from the ability to accept God’s graces totally, or make us completely reprobate. God sees in us the spark of goodness that He created in each soul, and allows us to not simply accept Jesus’ passion as a means of restoring our relationship with Him, but when we are engaged in a relationship with Him, He elevates our own actions by His grace so that they help us to grow in spirit, and progress in our relationship with Him. While we cannot on our own become worthy of heaven, as God’s free gift of Grace is always needed, we can through our efforts, united with Christ’s come closer to being worthy of heaven.

It seems “easier” to me to take the Protestant position, because in doing so one has very little responsibility. One is totally lost, and even after accepting Jesus, it is He who takes all responsibility for our Salvation. I’d like to be able to belive that and go along for the ride.

However I do believe as the Catholic Church teaches, that accepting Christ into my life rather than taking away responsibility, adds to my responsibility to grow in spirit, and cooperation with God’s will. Christ offers the lifeline to me, but I don’t just hold on, waiting for Him to pull me, unworthy that I am into heaven. Rather He throws me the lifeline, and gives me the encouragement to climb up to him, out of the stormy sea.

Comments?

James:

Thanks for your quotes from the Book of Concord, I was aware that most Lutheran Theology on Justification and Salvation was different from the Presbyterian/Baptist view, but not to the extent that Lutheran ideas were so close in many matters to the Catholic Position.

My question would be, since Lutheranism claims to be Sola Scriptura, how binding is the Book of Concord on Lutherans? Is there a difference in private interpretation of the Scriptures does that trump Concord? As there are various groups or Synods of Lutherans, if one says (as has happened) that women, and practicing homosexuals can be ordianed, and another says they cannot, where does the is authority on dogma or morals is it in the Word, or the Individual? Since at one point Dr. Luther encouraged Private Interpretation, and later in life when he saw the chaos it caused, recanted his statement, is there any final authority beyond what the individual feels, or believes?

Sorry that you felt I was making an accusation. I was posting what my understanding of the subject was from Various Protestants I know, both lay and clergy. I asked for comments on my posting, because I knew you would be a good resource if my posting was not correct.

Now before Lutharanism started, Palagianism was already condemned by the Catholic Church, so we do agree on this point.

Catholics have always believed that we cannot be saved by our own personal merits, but by the Merits of Christ. However as Scritpture plainly teaches, “Faith without works is dead.” We agree that Faith is a gift from God, so it only follows that the works that are attached to Faith, are not merits that we do on our own, but those we accomplish when we are living a life of Grace, and united to God. A baptized person in a state of grace can give $10.00 to a charity, and if they do so to feel better about themselves or to be seen giving charity, they are not doing so their reward is the recognition. However if one does so simply to follow Christ and out of Love for God, then one’s works are not your own, but an offering to God, by following His Commands, and submitting to His will. God and His Grace elevate our works and make them meritorious.

High and Low German are two different Germanic languages. Dr. Luther himself took the necessary struggle to unite all the different German dialects into a unified German language, an accomplishment made by Luther that you failed to point out or care to give credit. It may be true that there were bibles of different languages that were around, but only the educated could read. Luther was a pioneer in giving the public formal education in reading and other subjects and by translating the Bible into the vernacular of the German-speaking countries.

I did not point out Dr. Luther’s part in the unification of Modern German, because the point was not what happened after Luther, but what existed prior to Luther. It is just as germain that literacy was preserved prior to Guttenberg by Monastic Communities who copied the Bible, Liturgical and Theological books and even secular books. Hand copying was lengthly, laborious and costly, limiting the availibility and ease of obtaining books, or spreading literacy. Much of Dr. Luther, and other’s success in the increase of literacy was more the invention of movable type, which made printed matter more easily availible, and cutting the cost radically.

Like Jon, I would second that Petros while it is also used for Rock in Latin is from the Greek. It is also to be noted that Jesus did not call Simon Bar Jonah, “Lithos” or little rock, but Petros for a large rock, upon which the Church would be built. It is also of note that Jesus most assuredly spoke to him in Aramaic, which would mean that Simon whould be renamed Kephas, (Rock). We also know from Jewish custom, and from Scripture that a name change made by God indicated a change in role, and authority. Abram had his name and his authority changed by God when God changed his name to Abraham. Simon was renamed Kephas, (Petros) by God. Simon the Man like the Popes who succeeded him were like all of us men who sinned. Simon Peter in the Office of Prince of the Apostles acts by the authority given by Christ. It is thus that Catholics differ the individual who when speaking on his own authority, or his own opinion is fallible, and when he is speaking in the office of Pope is then doing so with Christ’s promise that He (Jesus) would guide the Church, and not abandon it. It would be the same thing if a Supreme Court Judge gave a personal opinion of the Law, vs when they gave a ruling from the bench. It is the same person, but the context of private opinon, or official ruling make the actions what they are.