Hail Mary- I don’t agree sorry (am I outlawed because of Bib

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This topic contains 15 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  LARobert 6 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #1826

    Why ‘Hail Mary’?
    Claim.
    The phrase “hail Mary” is actually biblical! Take a look at Luke 1:28. The following are various renderings from various translations of the Bible:
    And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.” – NAB
    The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” – NIV
    And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. – KJV
    And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.” – NASB
    And he came to her and said, Hail, O favored one [endued with grace]! The Lord is with you! Blessed (favored of God) are you before all other women! – Amplified
    How is Mary Holy?
    Claim.

    We see in that same verse that Gabriel calls Mary highly favored (by God). We also see in Luke 1:42 Elizabeth calls Mary “Most blessed among women”.
    Taking the e-mail author’s definition of ‘holy’, that is set aside from the rest, it’s clear to see that the Bible agrees. Mary is ‘most blessed among women’ and ‘highly favored’ by God. How many other people in Scripture have received such designations – none.

    But why was Mary Holy and Favored?
    Claim.

    Mary is considered of such high favor with God and Elizabeth recognizes that she is special only because of Jesus. Mary was chosen to bear Jesus by God, so God singled her out from many, many other women on the planet. Elizabeth recognized that she was bearing the son of God and so recognized that she was special.
    Mary was not just as normal as you and me – she was highly favored by God and greatest of all women. Not too many people have angels coming in the middle of the night to proclaim such things to them so I would say that Mary is a tad more than ordinary.

    Above is taken from the aboutcatholics.com website.

    It is clear from the author’s description that Mary is revered or special but is not worshipped in any way or form.
    The author does tell us that; ‘The Hail Mary is not a prayer of worship, but it is a recitation of Scripture and then an asking of her to pray for us to God; much like asking our other Christian brothers and sisters to pray for us’.

    My questions or points are these;

    1. Mary was called favored one or in other words chosen one by the angel Gabriel true
    2. Mary was told she was ‘most blessed among women’ by Elizabeth true
    3. Catholics make more out of this then what it actually is, Catholics have twisted to such a distortion which is totally miss-representing the role Mary played.
    4. If we are to pay tribute to Mary, the way Catholics do, we are basically saying she had some part to play in the salvation of the world which God would not have been able to achieve without the special acceptance of a Mary herself.

    The above principal is very basic and very easily accepted by Catholics I presume. On the other hand I see God as far more powerful, knowing and greater than the salvation of the world being left to rest on the shoulders of a simple human woman.

    The same Moses was chosen with a stutter, Gideon with his weakness or God’s instruction for the Israelites in going to battle; which was go home if you want to because when God had just a handful of willing men he would conquer the massive enemy armies to show that it is by His power and not by ours that we are saved.

    Mary was greeted by the angel and spoken of by Elizabeth similar to that of King David.
    -David was a simple young man who diligently did right in the small things but it was because God chose to use David that David became such a powerful king and leader of the Jews.
    -David showed just how human he was later when he was king. He committed adultery and then murdered Uriah to cover up the crime; even so he was still described as beloved of God and special just as Mary was
    -Catholics I believe miss the point that God chooses the weak and humble so that He can raise them up to display His mighty power through them
    -We should accept the fact that Mary was no more special to God than you or I are. We might look through human eyes that say ‘oh she was special she gave birth to God’. The Bible is full of stories about special people who encountered God and angels. Men and women who spoke with the Lord and witnessed super natural miracles right before their very eyes but that is God and only God. All the rest of them and us are human and only human
    -We breathe because God gives us life and we die because God takes our life away each and every one of us Mary, Moses or Joe up the road. God chooses what He wants, who He wants and when God chooses the chosen respond.

    The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are on high and no one, man or angel, should try and elevate any other idol, statue saint or Mary to an elevation of goodness for none are good not even one for all our works are but like filthy rags before the Lord it is only by His grace that we are chosen and it is only by His power that we can respond; even Mary.

    #8853

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    [quote:21agc2dt]Catholics make more out of this then what it actually is, Catholics have twisted to such a distortion which is totally miss-representing the role Mary played.[/quote:21agc2dt]
    I suppose your comment could be considered true if the only thing we had was the Bible, but Christianity came before the New Testament Scriptures so what we have is the faith that was passed on from the first believers and the Scriptures.

    Arguably the Catholic view of Mary is based more on what was handed down than the Scriptures exclusively. So you could say that Catholics make it out to more than what it actually is, but that’s a highly contentious point.

    [quote:21agc2dt]If we are to pay tribute to Mary, the way Catholics do, we are basically saying she had some part to play in the salvation of the world which God would not have been able to achieve without the special acceptance of a Mary herself.[/quote:21agc2dt]
    Mary, undoubtedly, played a special role to Christians. In John 19:26-27 Mary’s motherhood is expanded beyond Jesus, to a disciple of Jesus.

    It’s not that God couldn’t achieve the salvation of the world without Mary, but that God [b:21agc2dt]specifically chose[/b:21agc2dt] Mary to accomplish that task. We recognize God’s choosing of Mary as what makes her significant. Who else do you know was asked to bear the savior of the world into existence?

    Mary’s acceptance of God’s calling for her is a model for all Christians to faithfully accept God’s will for themselves. God’s choice of Mary to accomplish this task says a lot about the person he chose and this is why Mary is so special, because God chose her.

    #8862

    LARobert
    Participant

    While not as smug, and a little more literate than a previous self aggrandizing attacker, I wonder if this is our old banned friend Ron, or someone sent to do his bidding.

    #8864

    No I am not Ron anyway I am sorry to God I got involved in this again, when ever I search the web for an answer to something simple I come across false teachings like Hail Mary and it is my mistake I can do anything to change darkness to light.
    I repent and I’m out of here!

    #8865

    LARobert
    Participant

    I’m sure you will be back. As for myself if you can engage in meaningful dialogue, which does not mean agreement, but honest discussion, rather than simply bashing, I’m sure everyone would benefit. While you do seem to be very much like Ron, and I’m not convinced yet you are not him, you will remain in my prayers.

    From what I’ve seen of your few postings, you did not come here to seek out answers to questions you searched out on the internet. Rather you came here thinking you and only you had the answers, attacking and bating those who you felt had not enough insight to ask the questions.

    #8867

    someone please unsubscribe me!
    This post came to my mail box so LArobert with your soothsaying gift of knowing others intentions wow you are godlike you were right I am back but unfortunately your brilliance is flawed by the fact I am not Ron and I didn’t search to find this site for an argument. So once again round up my comment with a feel good comment to keep feeding the bait to unsuspecting people who don’t know truth but get lured in by your bait.

    So once again tata! Soothsayer

    #8868

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    This guy isn’t Ron (it’s the first thing I checked), that’s why I didn’t ban him right away.

    #8869

    LARobert
    Participant

    This guy isn’t Ron (it’s the first thing I checked),

    Which is why I mentioned he seems more literate than Ron. However his insistance that only he knows the Bible and that Catholics and the Catholic Church, and given time I suspect that he would tell us that we cannot trust histories or any commentaries written by Catholics. He has already shown himself to be beating the same post-Reformation drum as Ron used to here, ala “You guys think you know, but you don’t, and it is up to me to set you straight.”

    I find some amount of humor that when behaviors and similarities are exposed those of this ilk attack supposing ruminations of others are held to be somehow facts that need to be attacked with a large amount of venom and overkill. While once again I’ll point out his writing style and literacy are superior to Ron’s (a compliment if he can stand that) his over reaction speaks more of his need to prove to himself that his opinions are correct than anything else.

    One of the other things my former Calvinist Minister friend told me about his conversion from Protestant “Bible alone, and Faith alone” is everything ended up being based not on Christ, as in the Catholic Church, but ones self. The interpretation was based on ones own self, and the victory of the Cross was only applicable based on ones own acceptance. When he became convinced of the Catholic view and converted he told me that his life in Christ became more simple and deep. Not because someone told him what to believe, he got enough of that as a Protestant where everyone tried to correct his or her brother’s private interpretation of theology and the Bible, but because as Catholics, we trust that as Jesus told us we must submit to Baptism He meets us there. We present ourselves to Him and we trust that the Graces He won for us on the Cross are administered by Him in the waters of the sacrament. The waters and the minister of the sacrament being external signs and requirements that He established in order to effect His change on us. He works on us (ordinarily) through the means He established. Rather than making His work dependent only on our say so.

    #8958

    James
    Member

    Hello! I was wondering if you can ask you a question. I believe Jon said in the artical about the Hail Marys that it has biblical reference to it. I did find this artical helpful. However, I was wondering if the Hail Holy Queen prayer has any Biblical reference to it?

    Thanks <img src=” title=”Smile” />
    James

    #8964

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    Hi James. In a short answer, I would say yes and no, as are most things with Mary. There is very little about Mary in the Scriptures and much of Mariology and Marian devotion is a development later in the Church which becomes a part of the living Tradition. However, we do see in the Scriptures that Mary was highly favored by God, Jesus turned her over to us as our mother too, etc.

    I’m no expert in Marian doctrine so I am hesitant to answer in more detail, especially definitively, but what I wrote is the jist of it. Does this help at all?

    #8970

    James
    Member

    Yes it does. Thank you <img src=” title=”Smile” /> So what you’re saying is that Mary is both a biblical and traditional role models for us?

    #8977

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster
    "James":3n7k92vd wrote:
    Yes it does. Thank you <img src=” title=”Smile” /> So what you’re saying is that Mary is both a biblical and traditional role models for us?[/quote:3n7k92vd]
    Yes, I think that’s what I am saying. <img src=” title=”Smile” />
    #8979

    James
    Member

    lol <img src=” title=”Very Happy” />

    #8984

    LARobert
    Participant

    Humans compose prayers all the time, most are not found in the Bible. Go to any Protestant Church and you will usually hear the words “For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory…” Not in the Bible in connection with the Lord’s prayer, however most Protestants would be shocked to find out that the addition to the Lord’s prayer that they almost always include comes from an older Catholic Liturgical prayer that the priest would pray silently.

    Along with private interpretation, (without the guidance of the Church that Jesus founded and commissioned to guard the teachings he gave the Apostles) the idea that nothing that is not mentioned or can be “proven” by the Bible leads many people into a warped understanding of the Faith.

    #9278

    Deeown
    Member

    Catholics do not say that Mary had a role in the salvation of the world they simply do a better job at respecting the woman who gave birth to our Lord. The Bible constantly refers to Mary as “most blessed among women” and “favored” and that “the Lord is with thee” just by those descriptions given to her by angels is a good enough reason to keep her apart of Christianity instead of neglecting her completley. True Mary didnt play a role in the salvation of the world, nor is she God; but to say she didnt play a significant role in Christian History and that she wasnt strong and brave is absurd and insulting.

    Mary can also be seen as a sort of role model for women today! she was a strong righteous woman who did Gods will and followed his instructions even though it was a very hard path.

    #9283

    LARobert
    Participant

    [quote:3lsekxi6]True Mary didnt play a role in the salvation of the world, nor is she God; but to say she didnt play a significant role in Christian History and that she wasnt strong and brave is absurd and insulting.[/quote:3lsekxi6]
    I would disagree that Mary did not play a role in the salvation of the world. I would agree that she is not God. However in the same way that we must not only accept the Grace of God into our lives or reject it, (God does not force us to be saved), but we must also cooperate with His grace, Mary was free to accept or reject her participation in God’s plan for the salvation of the World. She conformed perfectly with God’s grace. Any special graces she received from God had to do with that role she did play. It is true that any good we do is spiritually worthless if it is not done in union with Jesus, and His work of salvation.

    Yes she is the greatest human model and example for us, and her role has been to point us to her son, Jesus, to lead us to her son Jesus, and to magnify her son Jesus.

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