De Fide ?

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This topic contains 21 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by  twinc 11 months ago.

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  • #2141

    twinc
    Participant

    as I read it a de fide dogmatic teaching by a Church Council is infallible – this is the case for both Lateran IV and Vatican 1 regarding the Catholic Doctrine of Creation[CCC282]where both evolutionary theory and progressive creation are excluded by the Councils’ simple declaration correctly expounded – any comments – come home now – twinc

    #10472

    LARobert
    Participant

    You seem to have read the council’s defenition, but ignored the interpretation of the Church on the subject. It would appear that you’ve made yourself and the websites you support the authority and not the Church.

    [b:pjn9ueb0]What the Vatican Council said about Faith and Science[/b:pjn9ueb0]
    [quote:pjn9ueb0]5. Even though faith is above reason, there can never be any real disagreement between faith and reason, since it is the same God who reveals the mysteries and infuses faith, and who has endowed the human mind with the light of reason.

    6. God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever be in opposition to truth. The appearance of this kind of specious contradiction is chiefly due to the fact that either the dogmas of faith are not understood and explained in accordance with the mind of the Church, or unsound views are mistaken for the conclusions of reason.
    […]
    9. Hence all faithful Christians are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith, particularly if they have been condemned by the Church; and furthermore they are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of truth.

    10. Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds.

    11. Hence, so far is the Church from hindering the development of human arts and studies, that in fact she assists and promotes them in many ways. For she is neither ignorant nor contemptuous of the advantages which derive from this source for human life, rather she acknowledges that those things flow from God, the lord of sciences, and, if they are properly used, lead to God by the help of his grace.[/quote:pjn9ueb0]
    [b:pjn9ueb0]A few years later Pope Leo XIII wrote this in his encyclical Provendissiumus Deus, (regarding the Study of Sacred Scripture)[/b:pjn9ueb0]
    [quote:pjn9ueb0]23. In order that all these endeavours and exertions may really prove advantageous to the cause of the Bible, let scholars keep steadfastly to the principles which We have in this Letter laid down. Let them loyally hold that God, the Creator and Ruler of all things, is also the Author of the Scriptures – and that therefore nothing can be proved either by physical science or archaeology which can really contradict the Scriptures. If, then, apparent contradiction be met with, every effort should be made to remove it. Judicious theologians and commentators should be consulted as to what is the true or most probable meaning of the passage in discussion, and the hostile arguments should be carefully weighed. Even if the difficulty is after all not cleared up and the discrepancy seems to remain, the contest must not be abandoned; truth cannot contradict truth, and we may be sure that some mistake has been made either in the interpretation of the sacred words, or in the polemical discussion itself; and if no such mistake can be detected, we must then suspend judgment for the time being.[/quote:pjn9ueb0]
    [b:pjn9ueb0]Pope St. Pius X writes in Pascendi[/b:pjn9ueb0]
    [quote:pjn9ueb0]47. With regard to secular studies, let it suffice to recall here what our predecessor [Leo XIII] has admirably said: “Apply yourselves energetically to the study of natural sciences: in which department the things that have been so brilliantly discovered, and so usefully applied, to the admiration of the present age, will be the object of praise and commendation to those who come after us.”But this is to be done without interfering with sacred studies, as Our same predecessor prescribed in these most weighty words: “If you carefully search for the cause of those errors you will find that it lies in the fact that in these days when the natural sciences absorb so much study, the more severe and lofty studies [i.e., theology and related disciplines] have been proportionately neglected–some of them have almost passed into oblivion, some of them are pursued in a half-hearted or superficial way, and, sad to say, now that the splendor of the former estate is dimmed, they have been disfigured by perverse doctrines and monstrous errors.” We ordain, therefore, that the study of natural sciences in the seminaries be carried out according to this law.[/quote:pjn9ueb0]
    None of these documents which interpret for us how we are to regard Faith and Science discredit Evolution when it is in conformity with the Authentic teachings of the Church, which all Catholics are obliged to believe.

    1. God created all things out of nothing.
    2. When God created the immortal souls of our first parents, they were created out of nothing and in an instant, that their souls did not evolve from a lower animal.

    While the Church has not defined at what point in history the immortal soul of our first human parents was created,

    While we must admit that God could have created the heavens and the earth according to either of the two stories of creation in Genesis, we are not bound to believe that it happened in either order.

    #10474

    twinc
    Participant

    firstly there is only one story of creation not two though many have been misled and mistakenly accept two – secondly when scripture and science appear to clash then the science which would be pseudo science anyway must be rejected – it is impossible for scripture to be pseudo correctly interpreted bu the Church such as de fide etc – twinc

    #10481

    LARobert
    Participant

    Again it is twinc against the Magisterium. I choose the Magisterial teachings of the Church.

    #10482

    twinc
    Participant
    "LARobert":18o838gt wrote:
    Again it is twinc against the Magisterium. I choose the Magisterial teachings of the Church.[/quote:18o838gt]
    saying so does not make it so – there are many and weird ,way out and wacky alternatives on offer rather than the original “did God really say” – twinc
    #10487

    LARobert
    Participant

    Twinc, the illogic of your arguments, that we must submit to your interpretation, rather than that of the Holy See, based on your say so, and when you are presented with the actual full teaching of the Church is baffeling. You remain in my prayers.

    #10491

    twinc
    Participant
    "LARobert":1r020w2n wrote:
    Twinc, the illogic of your arguments, that we must submit to your interpretation, rather than that of the Holy See, based on your say so, and when you are presented with the actual full teaching of the Church is baffeling. You remain in my prayers.[/quote:1r020w2n]
    yes but they all claim this is what the Church teaches and it always just is not so – do not accept individual opinions,interpretations,conjectures,conclusions – go consult the experts and specialists – these can and will be found at http://www.kolbecenter.org and also have a quick squint at the many correct articles at http://www.catholicorigins.com – twinc
    #10493

    LARobert
    Participant

    I don’t find your sources to be experts.

    I do find the professors who I studied under in Rome and Freiburg (Pontifical Universities) and the texts they required, to be so.

    #10494

    twinc
    Participant
    "LARobert":2xv7t6g4 wrote:
    I don’t find your sources to be experts.

    I do find the professors who I studied under in Rome and Freiburg (Pontifical Universities) and the texts they required, to be so.[/quote:2xv7t6g4]
    means nothing at all – they are not infallible and according to you seem to be no more reliable than the oft referenced Pontifical Academy of Science – even Popes and Bishops etc have failed but the Faith ,our Faith and The FAITH OF THE FATHERS has not and cannot fail – see http://www.catholicorigins.com and http://www.kolbecenter.org – come home now – winc

    #10496

    LARobert
    Participant

    I’ve read your sources. They do not convince me. They distort Catholic positions to prove their positions.

    I do feel sorry for those who feel that they alone know the truth, and that the Pope is in error.

    Who do you prepose that we follow if not the Catholic Church. Who is the Current validly elected Pope? You are good at posing obtuse questions, and finding sources that ridicule the Pope and the Catholic Church, but not much at answering questions.

    #10501

    twinc
    Participant
    "LARobert":3e7epib5 wrote:
    I’ve read your sources. They do not convince me. They distort Catholic positions to prove their positions.

    I do feel sorry for those who feel that they alone know the truth, and that the Pope is in error.

    Who do you prepose that we follow if not the Catholic Church. Who is the Current validly elected Pope? You are good at posing obtuse questions, and finding sources that ridicule the Pope and the Catholic Church, but not much at answering questions.[/quote:3e7epib5]
    what has validly elected have to do with it – there have been wacky wonky Popes but the Church and The Faith of our Fathers has not and cannot fail – off the cuff statements must be guarded against “for flesh and blood has revealed this or that and the other and not my Father in heaven” – twinc

    #10504

    LARobert
    Participant

    Again you avoid answering questions. Why take us down the rabbit hole with the questions about the Papal Oath, or the second and different Anti-Modernist Oath? Do you not accept the Papacy of any of the Popes since Vatican II? If you do not and have credible evidence, it could be sinful to withold such information and allow the world to wallow in ignorance.

    Since some of the ticklers you post are straight out of the Sede Vacantist handbook, and they have proven to simply splinter based on private interpretation and private visionaries, it would be nice to know some of the rationale for your postings, as they seem only to cause or be aimed at causing disunity in the Body of Christ.

    You do remain in my prayers.

    #10506

    twinc
    Participant

    the mere fact that you dub me a sede vacantist shows how wrong you are in all your other conjectures and conclusions as well – at least they are not totally adrift – come home now – twinc

    #10508

    LARobert
    Participant

    Not unlike your postings which are of questionable orthodoxy, you accuse me of stating that you are a Sede, I simply pointed out that the subjects you refuse to answer, and types of questions you lead with are the same as the Sede crowd. If you have a point to make, and an argument to support it, do so. Ranting and accusing others of being Modernists, and heretical, who need to return home to the Catholic Church, only clouds the mists of your theological position, and obscures the teachings of the Church you seem to imply the Holy See and most all the Catholic Church has abandoned. A bit of clarity and honesty on your side would be refreshing.

    State your position on these topics, and show evidence that we should give them any credence at all.

    Some of the websites you have posted as proof of your position are so contradictory that it would seem you yourself do not know what you believe. One holds that a 24hour 6 day creation is the only postion a Catholic can hold, and Geocentric cosmology is likewise the only Catholic postion. Other websites you propose to support your teachings are supporters of Galileo and an understanding of a scientific understanding of creation that the Catholic Church has approved for orthodox Catholics to believe. I find myself wondering what you really believe.

    You deny that the Magisterium and the Teachings which come from it are Catholic. You imply that as in the time of the Arian heresy we have to reject the majority of the bishops and theologians as modern day heretics, yet you show us no proof except that you and a few others who are not part of the magisterium say so. Come clear before the infection of your confusing posts robs you of what little credibility that you may still have.

    #10509

    twinc
    Participant
    "LARobert":1hd2iv46 wrote:
    Not unlike your postings which are of questionable orthodoxy, you accuse me of stating that you are a Sede, I simply pointed out that the subjects you refuse to answer, and types of questions you lead with are the same as the Sede crowd. If you have a point to make, and an argument to support it, do so. Ranting and accusing others of being Modernists, and heretical, who need to return home to the Catholic Church, only clouds the mists of your theological position, and obscures the teachings of the Church you seem to imply the Holy See and most all the Catholic Church has abandoned. A bit of clarity and honesty on your side would be refreshing.

    State your position on these topics, and show evidence that we should give them any credence at all.

    Some of the websites you have posted as proof of your position are so contradictory that it would seem you yourself do not know what you believe. One holds that a 24hour 6 day creation is the only postion a Catholic can hold, and Geocentric cosmology is likewise the only Catholic postion. Other websites you propose to support your teachings are supporters of Galileo and an understanding of a scientific understanding of creation that the Catholic Church has approved for orthodox Catholics to believe. I find myself wondering what you really believe.

    You deny that the Magisterium and the Teachings which come from it are Catholic. You imply that as in the time of the Arian heresy we have to reject the majority of the bishops and theologians as modern day heretics, yet you show us no proof except that you and a few others who are not part of the magisterium say so. Come clear before the infection of your confusing posts robs you of what little credibility that you may still have.[/quote:1hd2iv46]
    accept nothing coming from individual flawed and fragmented individuals but consult the Catholic experts and specialists as at http://www.daylightorigins.com and www,kolbecenter.com – twinc .

    #10510

    LARobert
    Participant

    I do look to authentic Catholic Sources. The individuals who run your websites don’t qualify as such, but are laymen who speak with no authority, and skew the teachings of the Catholic Church to a modified fath which they want the Church to teach. Sadly, you want to eat your cake and have it too. You remain in my prayers.

    #10511

    twinc
    Participant
    "LARobert":28o0p8o6 wrote:
    I do look to authentic Catholic Sources. The individuals who run your websites don’t qualify as such, but are laymen who speak with no authority, and skew the teachings of the Catholic Church to a modified fath which they want the Church to teach. Sadly, you want to eat your cake and have it too. You remain in my prayers.[/quote:28o0p8o6]
    you appear to be thoroughly confused,confused by others thoroughly confused according to what you say they teach and passed on and you are passing on – nor do you seem to realise the true Church really mostly consists of laymen highly qualified in both and all the disciplines of authentic theology and science and not odd bods claiming they know more and better and offering way out,weird and wacky teachings of their own individual interpretation as being what the Church teaches – “O Timothy!Guard what was committed to your trust,avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge – by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith” – btw I read the devil has easy access to and especially to universities,seminaries and even the Vatican – so come home now – twinc
    #10514

    LARobert
    Participant

    Perhaps you are ready to illuminate us with the special knowlege you have to this point kept to yourself. Is Pope Benedict XVI the Pope, or an Anti-Pope. Must we heed what he teaches, or should we simply ignore him? If there are any clergy left that you can trust, who are they?

    Since you seem to believe that there is a small remnant of Catholic left on earth, which of the various groups claiming that title are the real Catholics?

    It would be uncharitable for you to hide this information under a bushel woud it not? As you seem to believe that you know the portal home, why persist with your games, and not tell us all?

    #10516

    twinc
    Participant
    "LARobert":1qcjv242 wrote:
    Perhaps you are ready to illuminate us with the special knowlege you have to this point kept to yourself. Is Pope Benedict XVI the Pope, or an Anti-Pope. Must we heed what he teaches, or should we simply ignore him? If there are any clergy left that you can trust, who are they?

    Since you seem to believe that there is a small remnant of Catholic left on earth, which of the various groups claiming that title are the real Catholics?

    It would be uncharitable for you to hide this information under a bushel woud it not? As you seem to believe that you know the portal home, why persist with your games, and not tell us all?[/quote:1qcjv242]
    be assured there will be no monkeys or descendants of monkeys in heaven not even Bishops for salvation is because of original sin by a human – be human and come home now – twinc

    #10519

    LARobert
    Participant

    You still have not told us where this home is. Is it una cum Pope Benedict XVI, or do you have another home in mind?

    As you’ve already informed us that we are in error, and clled us Modernists, and heretics, that we need to come home, Chrisitan Charity would demand that you enlighten us to this mysterious home we are unaware of.

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