Communion with non-Catholics

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  • #1082

    SOGFPP
    Member

    Communion is the “source and summit” of Christian life, and our entire ecclesiology is ordered towards the Eucharist.

    What material food produces in our bodily life, Holy Communion wonderfully achieves in our spiritual life. Communion with the flesh of the risen Christ, a flesh “given life and giving life through the Holy Spirit,” preserves, increases, and renews the life of grace received at Baptism.

    This growth in Christian life needs the nourishment of Eucharistic Communion, the bread for our pilgrimage until the moment of death, when it will be given to us as viaticum.

    Holy Communion separates us from sin. The body of Christ we receive in Holy Communion is “given up for us,” and the blood we drink “shed for the many for the forgiveness of sins.” For this reason the Eucharist cannot unite us to Christ without at the same time cleansing us from past sins and preserving us from future sins.

    As bodily nourishment restores lost strength, so the Eucharist strengthens our charity, which tends to be weakened in daily life; and this living charity wipes away venial sins. By giving himself to us Christ revives our love and enables us to break our disordered attachments to creatures and root ourselves in him.

    In the year between my conversion and my Confirmation and First Communion it was AGONY to be without the Eucharist. I often shed tears at Mass when I had to sit there, knowing the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ was present in the room and I could not be a part of it.

    Surely the power of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Risen Lord is more powerful than any possible evangelical “tool”…. why should we deny other Christian (Trinitarian) groups from this Sacrament>?

    [color=blue:6de2h126]Now…. I understand all the reasons for Communion being only for members IN COMMUNION with the Church…. [u:6de2h126]but would love to hear more discussion about thoughts concerning this topic[/u:6de2h126].[/color:6de2h126]

    Peace,
    Scott

    #4840

    I love God, and do all I can to believe in His every word, but I wish I had your Faith. I firmly believe in the Eucharist, and it IS an act of will to do so–it is not our choice whether or not we FEEL extremely awed–but I definitely wish I had your Faith. I wish I would look at the Eucharist and be brought to tears.

    However, I do not think in ANY way that non-Catholics should be admitted to the Eucharist. If that were the case, any bum of the street could come into a Catholic Church and deface the Eucharist. Granted, any “Catholic” who is not really a Catholic could do so, but I think the safer the better.

    #4843

    SOGFPP
    Member

    [quote:1i9lctkf] Granted, any “Catholic” who is not really a Catholic could do so, but I think the safer the better.[/quote:1i9lctkf]
    First, thank you for the kind words….

    Second…. what if it’s not a “bum off the street”? What if it’s a sincere Christian who believes in the Eucharist, but say… does not subscribe to the notion of the Petrine Ministry?

    #4844

    If the Catholic Church is not what it claims to be–that is, infallible in the Magisterium and Pope–then the whole Church falls apart. If you disagree with ANY Catholic dogma you disagree wit hthe WHOLE CHURCH plain and simple, and then it is VERY hard to argue that you still believe in the real Presence.

    #4853

    Victor
    Member

    Uncertaindrummer, if someone disagrees with the Church and fully understands then they are certaintly not in the Body of Christ. If they disagree with the Church, they disagree with Christ. But it is not accurate to say:

    [quote:1jty802b]If you disagree with ANY Catholic dogma you disagree wit hthe WHOLE CHURCH [/quote:1jty802b]

    The Cathecism states:
    [i:1jty802b]838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.”322 Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”324 [/i:1jty802b]

    The Church recognizes that we agree quite a bit with other Christians. But just one disgreement will not permit you to share in the Lord’s Eucharist. So disagreeing with just ONE thing (assuming you clearly understood) just means your outside the Body. It does not mean you disagree with the “WHOLE CHURCH”.

    What you said sounds alot like:
    James 2:10
    For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become (T)guilty of all.

    This could have been what you were thinking about and applied it to “disagreeing”.

    In Christ
    ~Victor

    #4860

    What I meant was not that you disagree with every PART of teh Church, I meant that you clearly do not RECOGNIZE the Catholic Church as the infallible Church she is.

    If you did, then obviously you would not be disagreeing with it!

    #4869

    SOGFPP
    Member

    [quote:2snwyh13]What I meant was not that you disagree with every PART of teh Church, I meant that you clearly do not RECOGNIZE the Catholic Church as the infallible Church she is.

    If you did, then obviously you would not be disagreeing with it![/quote:2snwyh13]
    Wow…. that shows an amazing lack of charity…. I hope this sort of thing does not happen on this forum all the time….. <img src=” title=”Sad” />

    Getting back on topic…. and since you, Uncertaindrummer, seem to be well versed in Catholic teaching, I’d like your opinion on a hypothetical situation:

    [color=blue:2snwyh13]A group of Protestant men are:

    1. In danger of death.
    2. Have manifested faith in the Sacrament of the Eucharist
    3. Do not have access to a minister of their own
    4. Have asked a Catholic Priest to receive the Eucharist
    5. Are properly disposed in conscience[/color:2snwyh13]

    [color=darkred:2snwyh13]Should the Priest give them the Eucharist, or not?[/color:2snwyh13]

    #4871

    I do not see how that is a lack of charity. How about we tell things as they are? If you disagree with a Catholic Doctrine, you disagree with the infallibility of the Church and hence, the Church as a whole, really. Trying to sugarcoat it does not make things better, it makes them worse.

    But in the situation you speak of, if the Protestants are not Baptized, they should be. If they are, then yes in such an extreme situation they could recieve the Eucharist early. But only if they had been intending to join the Church had they been able to survive.

    #4872

    SOGFPP
    Member

    [quote:2fkfv2e2]I do not see how that is a lack of charity. How about we tell things as they are?[/quote:2fkfv2e2]
    Tell it how you see fit….. prudence, for me at least, would dictate that I show my brothers and sisters a little bit more respect without knowing them personally….. but like I said, that’s just me.
    [quote:2fkfv2e2]But in the situation you speak of, if the Protestants are not Baptized, they should be. [/quote:2fkfv2e2]
    Good point….. in this situation, could the Priest do so if the men desired?
    [quote:2fkfv2e2] But only if they had been intending to join the Church had they been able to survive.[/quote:2fkfv2e2]
    What if they have no intention of joining the Church?

    #4873

    Yes, the priest can baptize them if they are near death. [b:33rikqvv]I[/b:33rikqvv] could baptize someone if they were near death.

    Also, as to the prudence thing… I am speaking with mostly Catholics here, but alos even with Protestants, you have to make sure they know the truth, no matter what it is.

    Finally, your last question, if they did NOT intend to enter the Church. NO, you cannot. Just as Peter says in his epistle, it would be better to NOT have known the truth than to know it and fall away, if protestants KNOW that the Catholic Church is the one holy catholic apostolic Church, it is a grave sin for them to remain OUTSIDE of it.

    And really, I don’t understand how one can a) not believe in the Church but believe in the Real Presence or b) argue that someone who DID hold those views should be admitted to Communion.

    #4874

    SOGFPP
    Member

    [quote:1guf3sh3]Yes, the priest can baptize them if they are near death. [b:1guf3sh3]I[/b:1guf3sh3] could baptize someone if they were near death. [/quote:1guf3sh3]
    Well, I didn’t say near death…. In my hypothetical situation, these men are in danger of death…. same answer?
    [quote:1guf3sh3]Also, as to the prudence thing… I am speaking with mostly Catholics here, but alos even with Protestants, you have to make sure they know the truth, no matter what it is.[/quote:1guf3sh3]
    I get ya…. people have different ways of expressing truth…. and I find it’s also important to realize that I’m not personally infallible…. everyone makes mistakes. <img src=” title=”Wink” />
    [quote:1guf3sh3]Finally, your last question, if they did NOT intend to enter the Church. NO, you cannot. [/quote:1guf3sh3]
    Interesting….. where did you come by this information?

    Is it your personal opinion?

    With your use of the Capitals, you seem pretty sure that you are correct….. any chance you are wrong?
    [quote:1guf3sh3]And really, I don’t understand how one can a) not believe in the Church but believe in the Real Presence or b) argue that someone who DID hold those views should be admitted to Communion.[/quote:1guf3sh3]
    Well, the key phrase in your last statement is ” I don’t understand”…. the Ecumenical movement championed by our late Holy Father and taken up by Benedict XVI is a topic you probably should educate yourself about.

    I know it’s fun to play “Apologetics 101″, but you do yourself a disservice when you play the role of defender to the detriment of actually absorbing the theology of our faith…… :oops: sorry for the lecture, being a Catechism Teacher, it’s a bad habit I have.

    Looking forward to your answers…… thanks for a wonderful discussion….. on the other Forum where I work, the majority of members are atheists and non-Catholics, this has been great fun to speak with an educated Catholic for a change!!!

    Peace,
    Scott

    #4882

    Some of you may consider this may be a rather stupid question, but please try to be kind in your reply. I come here to learn from you all about the Catholic faith.

    Can a Catholic take communion outside of the Catholic church? For example, what if there is no priest, but there is a Luthern minister. Could a Catholic take communion from him or her? Dose the Catholic Church prohibit it in all cases? Do non-Catholic faiths have the same type of rules as Catholics? <img src=:” title=”Question” />

    #4884

    SOGFPP
    Member

    [quote:325c22ka]Some of you may consider this may be a rather stupid question, but please try to be kind in your reply. I come here to learn from you all about the Catholic faith. [/quote:325c22ka]
    I applaud you effort to educate yourself…. and I am sincerly saddened that you think anyone here would not be kind in their replies.
    [quote:325c22ka]Can a Catholic take communion outside of the Catholic church? [/quote:325c22ka]
    Yes, under very specific circumstances.
    [quote:325c22ka]Do non-Catholic faiths have the same type of rules as Catholics? <img src=:” title=”Question” />[/quote:325c22ka]
    Not sure…. I’m not quite familiar with the numerous churches that make up the non-Catholic Christian faith.

    Peace be with you,
    Scott

    #4885

    [quote:3eqix9ar][quote:3eqix9ar]Some of you may consider this may be a rather stupid question, but please try to be kind in your reply. I come here to learn from you all about the Catholic faith. [/quote:3eqix9ar]
    I applaud you effort to educate yourself…. and I am sincerly saddened that you think anyone here would not be kind in their replies.
    [quote:3eqix9ar]Can a Catholic take communion outside of the Catholic church? [/quote:3eqix9ar]
    Yes, under very specific circumstances.
    [quote:3eqix9ar]Do non-Catholic faiths have the same type of rules as Catholics? <img src=:” title=”Question” />[/quote:3eqix9ar]
    Not sure…. I’m not quite familiar with the numerous churches that make up the non-Catholic Christian faith.

    Peace be with you,
    Scott[/quote:3eqix9ar]

    Thank you for your reply Scott. It is not that I’m so concerned of an unkind reply, but rather, an abrupt or unfriendly reply that makes me wish I never even asked. The Catholic faith is not as easy for me to understand as many of the Protestant faiths. There seems to be so many more rules.

    Could you give me an example of such a “very specific circumstance”?

    Thank you for your kindness. <img src=” title=”Smile” />

    #4886

    SOGFPP
    Member

    [quote:16ia4zed]Thank you for your reply Scott. It is not that I’m so concerned of an unkind reply, but rather, an abrupt or unfriendly reply that makes me wish I never even asked. The Catholic faith is not as easy for me to understand as many of the Protestant faiths. There seems to be so many more rules.[/quote:16ia4zed]
    It’s hard for us to understand too, my friend. <img src=” title=”Wink” /> I teach the Catholic faith for a living, so I’d be happy to answer any questions you have…. If I don’t know the answer, I can at least direct you to another source.
    [quote:16ia4zed]Could you give me an example of such a “very specific circumstance”?[/quote:16ia4zed]
    [color=green:16ia4zed]From the DIRECTORY FOR THE APPLICATION OF PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM
    Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity

    On March 25th, 1993, His Holiness Pope John Paul II approved this Directory, confirmed it by his authority and ordered that it be published. Anything to the contrary notwithstanding.

    130. In case of danger of death, Catholic ministers may administer these sacraments when the conditions given below (n. 131) ate present. In other cases, it is strongly recommended that the diocesan Bishop, taking into account any norms which may have been established for this matter by the Episcopal Conference or by the Synods of Eastern Catholic Churches, establish general norms for judging situations of grave and pressing need and for verifying the conditions mentioned below (n. 131 ).[135] In accord with Canon Law,[136] these general norms are to be established only after consultation with at least the local competent authority of the other interested Church or ecclesial Community. Catholic ministers will judge individual cases and administer these sacraments only in accord with these established norms, where they exist. Otherwise they will judge according to the norms of this Directory.

    131. The conditions under which a Catholic minister may administer the sacraments of the Eucharist, of penance and of the anointing of the sick to a baptized person who may be found in the circumstances given above (n. 130) are that the person be unable to have recourse for the sacrament desired to a minister of his or her own Church or ecclesial Community, ask for the sacrament of his or her own initiative, manifest Catholic faith in this sacrament and be properly disposed.[137]

    132. On the basis of the Catholic doctrine concerning the sacraments and their validity, a Catholic who finds himself or herself in the circumstances mentioned above (nn. 130 and 131) may ask for these sacraments only from a minister in whose Church these sacraments are valid or from one who is known to be validly ordained according to the Catholic teaching on ordination. [/color:16ia4zed]

    Hope you don’t mind the complete answer…..

    Scott

    #4888

    Ecumenism is one thing, that does not mean changing rules for it.

    You seem to think I am somehow on the wrong side here. THE CHURCH says you cannot recieve Communion if you are not Catholic, not me, personally. I am only trying to explain why the Church has made it so.

    Your attempts to conjure up a situation where a non-Catholic can recieve communion even though he is not Catholic and does not want to be Catholic are strange at best. Why do you want non-Catholics to recieve Communion? If they want to receive communion they can BECOME CATHOLIC! It isn’t like we are saying you can’t receive and you can’t join!

    #4889

    SOGFPP
    Member

    [quote:21w3mxfn]Ecumenism is one thing, that does not mean changing rules for it. [/quote:21w3mxfn]
    Amen to that.
    [quote:21w3mxfn]You seem to think I am somehow on the wrong side here. THE CHURCH says you cannot recieve Communion if you are not Catholic, not me, personally. I am only trying to explain why the Church has made it so.[/quote:21w3mxfn]
    Ummm…. I guess you didn’t read my last post…. the quoted section from a document approved by the Pope clearly states the conditions where a non-Catholic may receive Communion…… and let me be clear=

    INTENT TO JOIN THE CHURCH IS NOT ONE OF THE CONDITIONS.

    In other words, you were/are wrong.
    [quote:21w3mxfn]Your attempts to conjure up a situation where a non-Catholic can recieve communion even though he is not Catholic and does not want to be Catholic are strange at best. [/quote:21w3mxfn]
    Strange? It should be clear by now why I presented that situation…

    Scott

    #4891

    [quote:183f126w]Communion is the “source and summit” of Christian life, and our entire ecclesiology is ordered towards the Eucharist.

    What material food produces in our bodily life, Holy Communion wonderfully achieves in our spiritual life. Communion with the flesh of the risen Christ, a flesh “given life and giving life through the Holy Spirit,” preserves, increases, and renews the life of grace received at Baptism.

    This growth in Christian life needs the nourishment of Eucharistic Communion, the bread for our pilgrimage until the moment of death, when it will be given to us as viaticum.

    Holy Communion separates us from sin. The body of Christ we receive in Holy Communion is “given up for us,” and the blood we drink “shed for the many for the forgiveness of sins.” For this reason the Eucharist cannot unite us to Christ without at the same time cleansing us from past sins and preserving us from future sins.

    As bodily nourishment restores lost strength, so the Eucharist strengthens our charity, which tends to be weakened in daily life; and this living charity wipes away venial sins. By giving himself to us Christ revives our love and enables us to break our disordered attachments to creatures and root ourselves in him.

    [b:183f126w]In the year between my conversion and my Confirmation and First Communion it was AGONY to be without the Eucharist. I often shed tears at Mass when I had to sit there, knowing the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ was present in the room and I could not be a part of it.[/b:183f126w]

    Surely the power of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Risen Lord is more powerful than any possible evangelical “tool”…. why should we deny other Christian (Trinitarian) groups from this Sacrament>?

    [color=blue:183f126w]Now…. I understand all the reasons for Communion being only for members IN COMMUNION with the Church…. [u:183f126w]but would love to hear more discussion about thoughts concerning this topic[/u:183f126w].[/color:183f126w]

    Peace,
    Scott[/quote:183f126w]

    Scott,

    Can a Catholic only receive Holy Communion after he or she is confirmed? I was told by a priest that any baptised Catholic in good standing with the church could.

    #4893

    SOGFPP
    Member

    [quote:1nk21ogh]Can a Catholic only receive Holy Communion after he or she is confirmed? I was told by a priest that any baptised Catholic in good standing with the church could.[/quote:1nk21ogh]
    The Priest you spoke to was quite correct, but to be clear, only Baptized Catholics who are [color=darkred:1nk21ogh]old enough [/color:1nk21ogh]may have their First Confession and First Communion.

    [color=green:1nk21ogh]The sacraments of Christian initiation – Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist – lay the foundations of every Christian life. “The sharing in the divine nature given to men through the grace of Christ bears a certain likeness to the origin, development, and nourishing of natural life. The faithful are born anew by Baptism, strengthened by the sacrament of Confirmation, and receive in the Eucharist the food of eternal life. By means of these sacraments of Christian initiation, they thus receive in increasing measure the treasures of the divine life and advance toward the perfection of charity.”[/color:1nk21ogh]

    #4894

    [quote:14v6elmo][quote:14v6elmo]Ecumenism is one thing, that does not mean changing rules for it. [/quote:14v6elmo]
    Amen to that.
    [quote:14v6elmo]You seem to think I am somehow on the wrong side here. THE CHURCH says you cannot recieve Communion if you are not Catholic, not me, personally. I am only trying to explain why the Church has made it so.[/quote:14v6elmo]
    Ummm…. I guess you didn’t read my last post…. the quoted section from a document approved by the Pope clearly states the conditions where a non-Catholic may receive Communion…… and let me be clear=

    INTENT TO JOIN THE CHURCH IS NOT ONE OF THE CONDITIONS.

    In other words, you were/are wrong.
    [quote:14v6elmo]Your attempts to conjure up a situation where a non-Catholic can recieve communion even though he is not Catholic and does not want to be Catholic are strange at best. [/quote:14v6elmo]
    Strange? It should be clear by now why I presented that situation…

    Scott[/quote:14v6elmo]

    To recieve Communuon without being a Catholic, you need to be in grave danger and have to believe in the Catholic position. It DOES say you need to believe in it. Now how can you believe in the Catholic position without believing in Catholicism? You can’t. It is simply impossible. And if one DOES, one obviously does not really know WHAT you are believing in because no one who has actually taken time to look at these things could believe in the Church’s claims of the Eucharist, and yet disbelieve in the Church’s claims elsewhere.

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