November 16, 2005 at 10:18 pm #1154
[color=red:3jizvrmh]Ok fellas. Homosexuality topics are only getting more heated and I think we need to familiarize ourselves with all the details of this topic. Even amongst catholics there are some disagreements. Speak you mind and let’s grow in it.
Theotokos pray for us.
[b:3jizvrmh]Bishop vows support for gay priests [/b:3jizvrmh]
ROCHESTER – While the world awaits a controversial Vatican document that could ban homosexuals from the priesthood, Bishop Matthew Clark assured gay priests and seminarians Sunday that they are welcome in Rochester’s Roman Catholic diocese.
“We deeply value your ministry,” Clark wrote in his weekly column in the Catholic Courier newspaper, referring to priests who are gay and dedicate their lives to service. And to men who are gay and considering becoming priests, “We try to treat all inquiries fairly. You will be no exception.”
Clark is at a meeting of America’s Roman Catholic bishops in Washington, D.C., and couldn’t be reached for comment, but his column, which is distributed at parishes throughout the 12-county diocese – including the Southern Tier – was apparently sparked by his concern over two recent events:
<LI>Vatican officials visiting seminaries to study how students are being prepared for priesthood and a life of celibacy.
<LI>And the soon-to-be-released Vatican document that deals with whether men who are gay should be allowed to become priests.
The contents of the Vatican document have provided grist for the rumor mill. Some media reports claim the document, which was years in the making, dissuades homosexuals from joining the priesthood; others say it gives bishops authority to look at each applicant on a case-by-case basis. Regardless, people in the pews are talking about it.
“I was really stunned that the bishop is basically saying that he is going to defy the Holy See,” said Andrew Dick, a parishioner at St. John the Evangelist in Rochester, who believes the document may state that gays can’t be priests. “(The bishop is) obligated and all Roman Catholics are obligated to follow the directions of the pope. The thing that really struck me is he’s pretty much saying, ‘I’m not going to do that.’ “
But Jamie Fazio has a different interpretation of what the pope wants. “I think what the pope wants is good priests,” said Fazio, who worked with an openly gay priest in Utica – a priest he and his wife thought enough of to choose as their daughter’s godfather.To be continued: http://www.stargazettenews.com/apps…EWS01/511150313November 21, 2005 at 7:53 pm #5518
God bless Bishop Clark for hsi faithful witness and pastoral care. May Christ and all the Saints continue with him.November 21, 2005 at 9:25 pm #5519
Yeah, I don’t really see it a problem to have gay priests. I think all of them need to be examined on a case by case basis to see if they are fit for the priesthood regardless if they are gay or not.
It would be a disservice to the Church to turn away otherwise qualified men from the priesthood just because they are gay.November 30, 2005 at 3:26 pm #5521
I just read an article about Vatican defending policy on ordaining gays…This is a topic that I’m really confused about. I think I’m beginning to understand why gay marriages are not acceptable in the Catholic Church, but I’m not really sure about why there’s a problem with gay men as priests…Gay doesn’t mean pedophile and celibacy means no sex. So, what’s the deal? Is there a fear that gay priests will encourage others to be okay w/ homosexuality? I would think that if you’re a gay priest, you accept the Church’s position on homosexuality and would counsel accordingly.
If you’re homosexual, does the Church accept you if you only if you aren’t a practicing one? Unless, you’re wanting to be a priest, and then they won’t accept you at all?
The other part of my problem is: what am I supposed to do with my feelings that appear to contradict what the Vatican releases as policy? Does it make me less Catholic to believe that gay men can be great priests?
mariaNovember 30, 2005 at 4:37 pm #5522
[quote:3knrzgza]I just read an article about Vatican defending policy on ordaining gays…This is a topic that I’m really confused about.[/quote:3knrzgza]
[color=darkred:3knrzgza]You’re not the only one. ” title=”Smile” /> [/color:3knrzgza]
[quote:3knrzgza]I think I’m beginning to understand why gay marriages are not acceptable in the Catholic Church, but I’m not really sure about why there’s a problem with gay men as priests[/quote:3knrzgza]
[color=darkred:3knrzgza]You are correct. There is no problem with gay priest, and the Church is not saying that there is. What they are saying is that ANY man that either has a [b:3knrzgza]strong[/b:3knrzgza] (homosexual or heterosexual) sexual tendecies will no be admitted into the seminary.[/color:3knrzgza]
[quote:3knrzgza]…Gay doesn’t mean pedophile and celibacy means no sex. So, what’s the deal? Is there a fear that gay priests will encourage others to be okay w/ homosexuality? I would think that if you’re a gay priest, you accept the Church’s position on homosexuality and would counsel accordingly.[/quote:3knrzgza]
[color=darkred:3knrzgza]Exactly!! You are correct and the Church agrees from all the documents I have read.[/color:3knrzgza]
[quote:3knrzgza]If you’re homosexual, does the Church accept you if you only if you aren’t a practicing one? [/quote:3knrzgza]
[color=darkred:3knrzgza]Correct. But keep in mind that the Church would have the same stance if you were a heterosexual with strong sexual tendencies.[/color:3knrzgza]
[quote:3knrzgza]Unless, you’re wanting to be a priest, and then they won’t accept you at all?[/quote:3knrzgza]
[color=darkred:3knrzgza]If you are practicing immoral sexuality (gay or not) the Church sees it as wrong whether you join the priesthood or not.[/color:3knrzgza]
[quote:3knrzgza]The other part of my problem is: what am I supposed to do with my feelings that appear to contradict what the Vatican releases as policy?[/quote:3knrzgza]
[color=darkred:3knrzgza]The same thing I do with my feelings when I want to sin. Fight them and pray. If it’s more then just feelings and it’s a conscious questions then ask away. That’s normal. ” title=”Smile” /> [/color:3knrzgza]
[quote:3knrzgza]Does it make me less Catholic to believe that gay men can be great priests? [/quote:3knrzgza]
[color=darkred:3knrzgza]Absolutely not…gay priests can be wonderful priest.
Hope I helped…. ” title=”Smile” />
~Victor[/color:3knrzgza]November 30, 2005 at 11:00 pm #5523
Well, I think you helped me feel better that I’m not the only one confused ” title=”Smile” />
the article quoted from this Instruction as saying men “who practice homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called ‘gay culture’ cannot be admitted to seminaries.” (only exception being those with a ‘transitory problem’- transitory being a one-time experience, rape, being drunk, etc.). This sounds like even if you aren’t gay, but you support gay lifestyles, etc. that you won’t be admitted…
Further, if you realize you’re gay after you become a priest or are already a priest, you just need more praying for but they’re not going to kick you out. So why is it okay if you’re already a priest, but not okay if you’re wanting to be one? It just seems really wishy-washy to me. If they’re going to condemn homosexuality (those who practice, have tendencies and/or support it) do it across the board and then there would be no confusion, with regards to gay priests at least.
I agree that if you have strong sexual tendencies, regardless of preference, maybe the priesthood isn’t for you. And if there’s a questionnaire or personality profile that they have to do, that’s what it needs to find out. Being gay, in my opinion, is irrelevant.
Off the priest topic, but still about being gay…I don’t think that it’s a sin to love and support my bro-in-law, who is gay. But, I worry that if the Church’s stance is that being homosexual is wrong..is my supporting him a sin in their eyes?
thank you for your response.December 1, 2005 at 4:54 am #5525
Peace be with all present!
Jon this is the first time I think I have disagreed on the site with your position on something. Not an attack, just my thoughts. ” title=”Smile” />
This is a touchy subject but one I think we have allowed contemporize thinking to taint. It is Biblically illegal to be Homosexual it was a Moral Law that was strictly obeyed:
3. Crimes against Morality. The laws of the Bible form a unique moral system. While other laws of the Near East tried to show what a king thought was good and right, the Bible shows how to honor God; this theme runs through all of its laws and is the root of all its morality. The Bible outlaws adultery, unnatural sex acts (such as homosexuality), prostitution, and other forms of perverted sex. God knew that these things could destroy Israel, just as they had destroyed other nations. They were crimes against morality in other words, crimes challenging the God-given order for human society. God’s Law ruled out greed, lying, strange marriages, and anything else that would upset society. God expected His people to live morally upright lives.
Now this is what was Moral Law of the times. But do the times change our Moral beliefs? I say no. For if it did, one could argue so does God’s Word. God is eternal, hence His Law is too, therefore perfect and unchanging. To deny this plan truth is to deny God. So, it comes down to defining what We as Christians believe, not what the World View or our own opinions profess.
So what is the basis for this Moral Law:
It starts simply with the definition of marriage:
• In Genesis we see God’s plan for Man and Women, no other contrary example exists
• God had ordained the sexual relationship to be enjoyed in the proper place and between the right people marriage partners.
• God had ordained the sexual relationship to be enjoyed in the proper place and between the right people marriage partners. The Jews felt so strongly about this that a newly-married man was freed from his military or business duties for a whole year so that he could “cheer up his wife which he hath taken” (Deut. 24:5).
Now homosexuality was addressed also directly:
• Paul reminded the Corinthians that adultery and homosexuality were sins and should be avoided (1 Cor. 6:9‚Äì11). But he also said that husbands and wives should enjoy God’s gift of sex together. Paul’s instruction was, “The husband should give to the wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. … Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control” (1 Cor. 7:3, 5, RSV).
• 26 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. 29 They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips 30 and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. 31 They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
• 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination.
And with more research you will find more references in both Old and New Testaments that Homosexuality is sinful. Now, do we want our Spiritual leaders to have this life style. Again I say no. Just not actively participating in a sin does not exempt you from the sin if you commit it in your mind, as we have been instructed by Christ.
And finally our Catechism states:
Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarily. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
So from my short search into this topic I have to say it is like Marriage in that only a man and women may marry, as it is only the same for a Priest. Because Homosexuality is a sin and violation of Moral Law we cannot allow this example in to the leadership of Christ’s Church. This is not a gay bashing, it is a simple look into why I feel we cannot allow this to happen. Further, this does not mean that Homosexuals sound not be welcomed into the Church. We welcome all, and those that are sinful, ALL OF US, need to not judge, show mercy, and help each other to repent, as we are ALL called to do.
Much of this is from a position paper I wrote. If you’d like my resources please email me, be glad to send them to you. God Bless!December 6, 2005 at 2:31 pm #5533
This article only support the Vatican and what I wrote. It is a shame that there are Priests that will be so out of the Faith that they would risk their soul in such a manner:December 10, 2005 at 4:41 pm #5555
[quote:iolqka57]This is a touchy subject but one I think we have allowed contemporize thinking to taint. It is Biblically illegal to be Homosexual it was a Moral Law that was strictly obeyed[/quote:iolqka57]
It was illegal to be homosexual or to practice homosexual sex acts?
Much of this was discussed a while back here: http://www.aboutcatholics.com/community … .php?t=151December 10, 2005 at 5:29 pm #5558
Peace be with you Jon,
Well illegal in a moral sense yes to both. As for the the difference between practicing the act or just being of the the preference, that is a difficult question for me to answer. I refer to Christ words on sinful thought being just a sinful as the commission of the thought. So I guess yes again. I need to read more on that but I believe it comes down to that issue.
I can’t see how thing about homosexual thoughts are any less sinful the thinking about murdering another.
FredDecember 11, 2005 at 5:12 am #5569
You are assuming that the person is willfully dwelling on homosexual thoughts.
Jon is asking if the preference itself, which is typically automatic (unwilled), is sinful.
As an analogy, a heterosexual is attracted to a person of the opposite sex without any conscience decision. Is the heterosexual sinning when he feels attracted to a woman?December 11, 2005 at 5:26 am #5571
Peace be with you Benedict,
[quote:2oje3spj]You are assuming that the person is willfully dwelling on homosexual thoughts.[/quote:2oje3spj]
Like I said I’m not really versed in this subject so willfully dwelling makes it is more defined and I would have to still say yes.
[quote:2oje3spj]Jon is asking if the preference itself, which is typically automatic (unwilled), is sinful.[/quote:2oje3spj]
I’m not sure if this is possible. I have read a few things on both sides of this argument, genetic disposition, personal choice, phyc issues, such. I have no real firm opinion, because I am deficient in this kind of knowledge.
I find it hard that God would included this in a creation that is made in his image. Free will explains how one would become homosexual to me better, in that, an individual is not created in that manner and that threw certain environmental factors one would choose the lifestyle. Again this would be personal choice, and one that is avoidable if a life with Christ was had. (my opinion)
So I must say I really have no idea on a definitive answer as for moral sin. But in or Religious, an absolute no.
FredDecember 11, 2005 at 6:17 am #5574
[quote:38toteti]I find it hard that God would included this in a creation that is made in his image.[/quote:38toteti]
If we were talking Adam and Eve I could see your point. But man is fallen. Each of us is born with concupiscence, but is being tempted to sin itself a sin?
[quote:38toteti]Free will explains how one would become homosexual to me better, in that, an individual is not created in that manner and that threw certain environmental factors one would choose the lifestyle.[/quote:38toteti]
You are not differentiating homosexual (being attracted to the same sex) and gay (a homosexual lifestyle).
Being gay is definitely a willful choice. But we are discussing being homosexual, and I would disagree that such attractions are a conscious choice.December 11, 2005 at 6:29 am #5575
Peace be with you Benedict,
[quote:31q1ozez]If we were talking Adam and Eve I could see your point. But man is fallen. Each of us is born with concupiscence, but is being tempted to sin itself a sin? [/quote:31q1ozez]
We are all created in his image to my knowledge, the stain of original sin changed our nature, so I guess there could be a place in creation for homosexuality. I yield to this only because I am not as knowledgeable on this issue as I am learning I should be.
[quote:31q1ozez]You are not differentiating homosexual (being attracted to the same sex) and gay (a homosexual lifestyle).[/quote:31q1ozez]
I did not know there is a difference. Again I see it as a choice, nothing else in nature is homosexual. There are plenty of examples of heterosexual and asexual. But I cannot recall any examples, other then human, of homosexual. Again could be my ignorance.
FredDecember 11, 2005 at 6:44 am #5576
[quote:3jzo2w8o]… nothing else in nature is homosexual.[/quote:3jzo2w8o]
Incorrect. There are many examples of other creatures as being homosexual. I don’t have any off-hand, but I have seen and read about it.
Try a search on Google and see what you come up with. There’s bound to be something about it out there.December 11, 2005 at 6:48 am #5577
Peace be with you Jon,
[quote:1imbwj0i]Incorrect. There are many examples of other creatures as being homosexual. I don’t have any off-hand, but I have seen and read about it. [/quote:1imbwj0i]
If you could find these articles I would be glad to read up on this. I am open to learning more, as I have stated I am ignorant on this topic.
FredDecember 11, 2005 at 6:52 am #5578
[quote:1xyuux39]Peace be with you Jon,
[quote:1xyuux39]Incorrect. There are many examples of other creatures as being homosexual. I don’t have any off-hand, but I have seen and read about it. [/quote:1xyuux39]
If you could find these articles I would be glad to read up on this. I am open to learning more, as I have stated I am ignorant on this topic.
No problem, dude. I’ll get to it as soon as I can! ” title=”Smile” />
I’m in the middle of a big project right now and staying up too late because of it.December 11, 2005 at 6:54 am #5579
Peace be with you Jon,
Thanks! Need help with the project?? Lol for coffee and cake I can be bought! lol
FredFebruary 13, 2006 at 3:55 am #5793
By this time, the Vatican document on ordaining men with homosexual tendencies has been released and so it is good to reiterate what it stated:
[quote:27z5bf8l]The Vatican letter says that the church respects homosexuals, but that it “cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practice homosexuality, present deeply rooted homosexual tendencies, or support the so-called gay culture.”
The Vatican document (it is less than 10 pages) attempts some sensible refinements. Distinctions are to be made between “deeply rooted homosexuality” and “homosexual tendencies that are only the expression of a transitory problem such as, for example, an unfinished adolescence.” Homosexual leanings “must however have been clearly overcome for at least three years before ordination to the diaconate.” [/quote:27z5bf8l]
I dare say that the reason many of us find this issue difficult or confusing is that 90 percent, maybe more, of our education about homosexuality and its causes comes from the media, and from pro-homosexual sources. We also tend to see such isues as “civil rights” issues and we are uncomfortable with the idea of “denying” anybody what appears to be rightfully theirs, especially if we think their situation (in this case, homosexual tendencies) is “not their fault” or genetically caused.
We can become educated, however, about the causes of homosexuality from sources other than the media or militant groups with political goals. How about taking a look at research and information compiled by those who counsel men and women in this situation? At least their work and practical experience should be given equal time, should it not?
One such organization is NARTH. (National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality.) The website is [url:27z5bf8l]http://www.narth.com[/url:27z5bf8l]
One might also learn from the writings of a wonderful priest who for years has counseled men of homosexual orientation, father John Harvey. Father Harvey has written several books and is also the founder of [i:27z5bf8l]Courage[/i:27z5bf8l] for homosexual men, and [i:27z5bf8l]Encourage[/i:27z5bf8l] for friends and relatives of homosexuals. He has produced a three part video set that should be a “must have” for any parish library, called The [i:27z5bf8l]Cry of the Faithful[/i:27z5bf8l]. This is compelling information and rather than incite disgust or hostility for homosexuals, rather solicits greater understanding and compassion.
(One might distinguish between those of the more militant bent who really don’t want any compassion, and those who suffer quietly with the disorder.)
According to Narth, homosexuality in adulthood stems from something called GID or “gender identity disorder” in childhood. I’m probably going to oversimplify this, but basically you have a young boy who for one reason or another has a problem identitying with his father. The father may be aloof, or absent, physically or emotionally. He may be overly harsh and unloving. This little boy may also be lacking in physical prowess, or see himself in that way…maybe he likes to play with girls more…is musical or artistic… His mother also can contribute to this identity disorder if she is overprotective, or overly “needy” herself. (He can come to see female love as clinging and controlling…and therefore undesirable or repugnant) Perhaps this little boy is teased at school by his peers (a major negative) as being a “sissy.” So he has difficulty identifying with his father and with his own male peer group.
You might remember boys like this from your experience. In most cases, they grow up and become more masculine, have a group of male friends and have normal sexual orientation.
But sometimes, when puberty sets in, the seed for a disordered inclination can set in. This boy may idolize another boy in his school or some other place as being much more virile or strong or possessing physical characteristics he himself does not. We all can probably remember being attracted to older more popular boys or girls in this way. However, puberty offers the situation that these feelings which are rather common, to become “sexualized” or “eroticized.” This is one good reason why our Church teaches the moral values of purity of mind and heart, and encourages proper formation of conscience with regard to sins of thought. At least then the child is helped spiritually and is encouraged through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
(However, I don’t think our youth are being taught this anymore, in their religion books, but this is another question….)
This boy may try acting on his sexual feelings with another boy…there may be some sexual experimentation..but still this is not full fledged homosexuality…
However, now you have a teenage boy who is questioning his “sexual orientation…” and of course there are sources and groups out there to tell him, “You are one of us.” In addition, you might find this hard to believe, but it is now considered a status symbol in high schools to declare oneself “gay.” I know teachers who attest to this. Unfortunately, if homosexual activity follows repeatedly then the person can become hooked on such behavior. And it is a very dangerous lifestyle…one that usually ends much earlier than normal, is plagued with diseases associated only with homosexual practices…but you won’t read about these in the paper.
Dr. Joseph Nicolisi of NARTH states that “my wife tells me never to say “never or “always” but i maintain that in all my years of counselling homosexual men there was never a case where there was a normal father-son relationship…there always was a disturbed relationship of some sort…ALWAYS.
And contrary to what you migt have read in the media several years ago, [b:27z5bf8l]there is no gay gene.[/b:27z5bf8l] But yet people believe this. The man who set out to prove this was himself a homosexual, his peers in the research industry never accepted his findings and he himself stated there is no single genetic cause of homosexuality…you can read this at the Narth website. There are biological predispositions…like mentioned above of a more delicate physical build or more artistic capabilities…but no gay gene.
So we must love these people and pray for them…learn more…speak about what we have learned…but of course it might get us martyred in doing so!
How this relates to the priesthood is far more complex than sexual preference alone, due to the underlying disturbed father-son relationship…there can be associated issues with immaturity, self absorption and problems with obedience to authority, in this case the magisterium…
And despite what certain sources try to tell you, that “homosexuals are no more likely than heterosexuals to abuse sexually”, 81 percent of the sexual abuse cases involved pre-pubescent or pubescent boys. You can read that online on the John Jay Report of the sexual abuse cases.
Please try to obtain and view the [i:27z5bf8l]Courage[/i:27z5bf8l] video set…it is extremely moving…I honor these men who had the “courage” to come forth in a public manner on film and reveal their souls to all…their suffering is deep and real. And they are remaining faithful to Christ and the Church. I believe some of them are saints.
I will try to post a link to the video…
MClareFebruary 13, 2006 at 4:04 am #5794
The correct title of the video set is [i:3mh2c1m1]Portraits of Courage[/i:3mh2c1m1]…and the first tape is [i:3mh2c1m1]Into the Light [/i:3mh2c1m1]and the second, [i:3mh2c1m1]Cry of the Faithful[/i:3mh2c1m1]. The website for courage is http://www.couragerc.net It is a two set tape, not three, sorry…
I don’t know how to post links on this site…perhaps it can’t be done?
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