adam and eve, allegorical???

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This topic contains 18 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Andres Ortiz 5 years ago.

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  • #2029

    i was browsing catholic.com’s forums and someone said that adam and eve didnt literally exist and was just an allegorical story, is this true?

    #9943

    LARobert
    Participant

    As Catholics we are not required to believe the two stories of Adam and Eve in the book of Genesis are literal. (Chapter one and Chapter two have a different order of Creation.) What we must believe as Catholics is that God is the Creator of the Universe and all that it contains. That at some point God infused immortal souls into creatures and gave them free will. That they chose to disobey God. While we call them Adam and Eve, we are not told by the Church that we must believe it happened as detailed in the First book of the Bible. We are not bound to believe that the world was created in seven literal 24 hour days, etc. We are bound to accept that had God wished to he could have done all as it is written in the Biblical text, but at the same time are free to accept any plausable scientific theory as long as we include in it 1. God did it. 2. He gave mankind immortal souls. and 3. Mankind has free will.

    Now there are other things that flow from this, such as humans were created to love and have a relationship with God, and were originally intended to live a life free of sickness, and death. We have inherited the stain of original sin, and the propensity to sin, but the being creatures of God, we have also the potential to be restored to what God originally intended before the first sin, and our actual sins. That is made possible by Christ Jesus. We will in heaven understand all that God is and has done for us fully, in this lifetime we only have a glimpse of His goodness and love.

    #9944

    Papa.Cod
    Member
    "LARobert":17s38tcx wrote:
    As Catholics we are not required to believe the two stories of Adam and Eve in the book of Genesis are literal. (Chapter one and Chapter two have a different order of Creation.) What we must believe as Catholics is that God is the Creator of the Universe and all that it contains.[/quote:17s38tcx]
    DOes it say this in your catechism? Whats does it day about how the bible should be read?
    #9945
    "Papa.Cod":1hsg71ap wrote:
    "LARobert":1hsg71ap wrote:
    As Catholics we are not required to believe the two stories of Adam and Eve in the book of Genesis are literal. (Chapter one and Chapter two have a different order of Creation.) What we must believe as Catholics is that God is the Creator of the Universe and all that it contains.[/quote:1hsg71ap]
    DOes it say this in your catechism? Whats does it day about how the bible should be read?[/quote:1hsg71ap]
    interesting! i’d like to know the answer to this too!
    #9946

    LARobert
    Participant

    Catechisms are not what most Anti-Catholic writers lead them to believe. They are in a way Cliff Notes, a short summary of the teachings of the Catholic Church. A Catechism may summarize the Faith, and include additonal information that one is permitted to believe, and those dogmas that one must believe, however most times the explanations are those of the authors of the individual catechisms. There are two that are more authoratative, and published by the Magesterium itself. However nobody should make the error of believing that the information in a Catechism is exhaustive or that it contains an entire and comprehensive covering of the subjects between the covers. What a Catechism is intended as is, a brief summary of topics related to the Faith, that will hopefully inspire others to seek out more information.

    To understand the position that the Catholic Church has regarding how to read the Bible, here are a couple of (but not an exhaustive list) official documents.

    [url:104mubvq]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18111893_providentissimus-deus_en.html[/url:104mubvq]

    [url:104mubvq]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_30091943_divino-afflante-spiritu_en.html[/url:104mubvq]

    I’ll try to add a few more over the weekend, as well as include some quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

    #9947

    Papa.Cod
    Member

    SO what your trying to say is that your catechism is for the summery of your faith? How often is YOur catechism used in the Education of teenage CAtholics?

    #9948

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    The Catechism is a firm foundation for instruction, but it is not exhaustive. Using the Catechism in teenage instruction is fine, but instruction and growth in faith doesn’t end in the teenage years. Continued growth in faith would move beyond the Catechism and dig deeper into the Scriptures and the other documents of the Church.

    #9949

    LARobert
    Participant
    "Papa.Cod":3f8dieix wrote:
    SO what your trying to say is that your catechism is for the summery of your faith? How often is YOur catechism used in the Education of teenage CAtholics?[/quote:3f8dieix]
    Your vocabulary is a betrayal of the sources you have been tainted with.

    First we cannot speak of “Your catechism” either as a Universal document of the Church. There are dozens of Catechisms, all approved for use, but none except possibly the CCC, which has a semi-official place. Even then it is not as Jon and I have both stated exhaustive. It is a starting point. It makes sense that an Elementary School, Middle School and High School student would be taught using a simple text that covers many of the teachings, and customs of Catholics.

    There are Catechisms that are written and geared toward children which explain the Faith in the most simple of terms. Some for young adults, that get more in depth, and then others for adults. Each instructs at the age, and educational level suitable for the intended reader.

    Many Catechism in print are written by different authors. One of the Most popular today is the, “Catechism of the Catholic Church” in 2,893 short and clear questions and answers most of the teachings and practices of Latin Rite Catholics are covered.There is no other place where a quicker and shorter information about the Catholic Faith is available. One of my favorite Modern Catechisms was written by the late Fr. J. Hardon, SJ. Possibly because it was the first one I learned the authentic teachings of the Catholic Faith from.

    The Baltimore Catechism is still in print, but was originally published after Bishops met in a Synod to discuss the Catholic Church in the USA during the 1800’s, there are loads of Catechisms, in various languages, while they teach the same Truths that have been taught by the Catholic Church since the days of the Apostles, they express that same faith in a manner that can be understood by peoples of different languages, and cultures.

    Here is an example of a few of the dozens of Catechisms you can purchase, or find in a good library. [url:3f8dieix]http://www.catholicfreeshipping.com/cfs_catechism.html[/url:3f8dieix] You can even find some online for free.

    While a Catechism is a good place to start in learning the Catholic Faith, it will hopefully spur on further reading the Sacred Scriptures, (which most Catechisms rely heavily upon) or more in depth books on various aspects of the Faith. Not everyone will want to read the Summa of St. Thomas, or St. Bonaventure, but a Catechism is a good place to start learning one’s faith.

    Many Protestants are taught that the Catechism is a book of non-scriptural Catholic teachings, or teachings that replace the Scriptures. Nothing could be farther from the truth. While some Catholic teachings are passed down to us from the Apostles, and not explicitly mentioned in the Scripture, they can be supported by, or are inferred in the Scriptures. Other Catholic teachings (outlined in the Catechism) are directly found in Scripture. Look over the most popular Catechism of today, and read the footnotes, you will find more Scriptural quotes than you would ever imagine, even when compaired to Protestant books.
    [url:3f8dieix]http://www.kofc.org/un/catechism/index.action[/url:3f8dieix]

    #9950

    Papa.Cod
    Member
    "LARobert":2pss14kl wrote:
    "Papa.Cod":2pss14kl wrote:
    SO what your trying to say is that your catechism is for the summery of your faith? How often is YOur catechism used in the Education of teenage CAtholics?[/quote:2pss14kl]
    Your vocabulary is a betrayal of the sources you have been tainted with.[/quote:2pss14kl]
    Oh thats nice to know that all i know is a lie *rolls eyes* pardon me for not fitting your perfect mold of a non-catholic

    "LARobert":2pss14kl wrote:
    First we cannot speak of “Your catechism” either as a Universal document of the Church. There are dozens of Catechisms, all approved for use, but none except possibly the CCC, which has a semi-official place.[/quote:2pss14kl]
    SO why doesn’t your church have a official catechism??

    "LARobert":2pss14kl wrote:
    While a Catechism is a good place to start in learning the Catholic Faith, it will hopefully spur on further reading the Sacred Scriptures, (which most Catechisms rely heavily upon)[/quote:2pss14kl]
    WHere would be a good place to start then? The loCAl priest?

    "LARobert":2pss14kl wrote:
    While some Catholic teachings are passed down to us from the Apostles, and not explicitly mentioned in the Scripture, they can be supported by, or are inferred in the Scriptures.[/quote:2pss14kl]
    You mean your scripture, the Apocrypha?

    "LARobert":2pss14kl wrote:
    Look over the most popular Catechism of today, and read the footnotes, you will find more Scriptural quotes than you would ever imagine, even when compaired to Protestant books.[/quote:2pss14kl]
    yeah right. prove it
    #9953

    LARobert
    Participant

    Many links to sources where you can find out how accurate your sources are have been given to you. I sense a fear that you may find out that what you have been taught is not what reality is. Yet something brings you back. Since you simply make rude comments, both to the Catholics on this forum, and even your friend, but give no support, I can’t really give your statements much credence based on your shotgun approach and your ad hominem attacks.

    No I don’t think you are ready to go to a priest, you don’t seem ready to listen to anyone who presents anything you don’t want to hear. It’s fine if after giving an honest look at something you reject it, but to reject it outright without honest investigation seems a bit juvenile.

    #9956

    James
    Member
    "Papa.Cod":10ei62lw wrote:
    "LARobert":10ei62lw wrote:
    First we cannot speak of “Your catechism” either as a Universal document of the Church. There are dozens of Catechisms, all approved for use, but none except possibly the CCC, which has a semi-official place.[/quote:10ei62lw]
    SO why doesn’t your church have a official catechism??[/quote:10ei62lw]
    Although Papa.Cod did do this quite haphazardly, this has been on my mind: Why is it that the Catholic Church has many versions of their catechism, but not one official book that is scripture-inlighting? (which, as you know it, is a catechism)

    By bringing up this question, I’m not endorsing or ok-ing Papa.Cod’s comments. Rather, I’m curious

    #9961

    LARobert
    Participant

    Not all of us learn the same way, or grasp things the same way, so too the same truths of the Catholic Church are presented in a different way, by different Catechism authors.

    There are two Catechisms that the Catechism of the Council of Trent, and the Current, CCC, which have a semi official status. But because of all the languages and Cultures that the Catholic Church is composed of there are Catechisms that have been endorsed or authorized by National groups, as was the case for the Baltimore Catechism in the USA. However while these Catechisms did carry the endorsement of the Catholic Bishops of various countries and language groups, that did not stop the publication of other Catechisms which all in the past had to be reviewed, and given an Imprimater, or permission to be printed and sold as a book that did not contain error. (More on Imprimaters sometime later, as they do not make a book an “official” Catholic Book, as some anti-catholics mislead people into believing.)

    The Catechism of the Council of Trent was published to counter some of the new Theological ideas coming from Luther, Zwigely, and Calvin, as well as to form a uniform manner of learning the Faith. It is one of the earliest Catechisms in print. You have to remember that prior to Luther’s day, all books were either copied by hand, (Usually in Monastic settings) and very expensive. Most people could not read, because books were so rare, Newspapers and Magazines did not exist. After Guttenberg invented movable type, and books could be printed much easier, and at a much lower cost, it became within the reach of many to learn to read, and own a book. It is also important (I think) to note that the first book that was printed with movable type, was the Vulgate, a Catholic Bible.

    I think what some non-Catholics don’t understand, being taught that the Catholic Clergy has a stangle hold on people’s minds, and forces Catholics to follow a strict blind obedience. The reality is that Catholics have quite a bit of freedom to read a variety of books which look at Cathoic teachings from a variety of viewpoints.

    #9965

    James
    Member
    "LARobert":5wx8ycf6 wrote:
    Most people could not read, because books were so rare, Newspapers and Magazines did not exist.[/quote:5wx8ycf6]
    I thought it was because only the clergy and the educated scholars were able to read, not the main populace :/ hmmm…I could be wrong, but I thought that’s how it went

    "LARobert":5wx8ycf6 wrote:
    it became within the reach of many to learn to read, and own a book.[/quote:5wx8ycf6]
    After Luther (I’m sure of this) and other Protestant and Catholic Christians (mainly the Jesuits, i’m guessing) emphasized the education of the lay folk, but I could be wrong….

    "LARobert":5wx8ycf6 wrote:
    The Catechism of the Council of Trent was published to counter some of the new Theological ideas coming from Luther, Zwigely, and Calvin, as well as to form a uniform manner of learning the Faith[/quote:5wx8ycf6]
    Really? I didn’t know that the Council of Trent created its own catechism! I learned something new today <img src=” title=”Smile” /> anyhow…Could a copy of this catechism be in circulation today? Is it obtainable?
    #9966
    "James":kvmaskg4 wrote:
    I didn’t know that the Council of Trent created its own catechism! I learned something new today <img src=” title=”Smile” /> anyhow…Could a copy of this catechism be in circulation today? Is it obtainable?[/quote:kvmaskg4]
    yeah, what he said, is there a copy of this catechism in circulation today??? that would be nice
    #9967

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster

    Supposedly this is it: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/the … trentc.htm

    #9968

    LARobert
    Participant
    "Jon":1crxgfgz wrote:
    Supposedly this is it: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/the … trentc.htm[/quote:1crxgfgz]
    Thanks Jon. And it is availible in reprint too. Tan Books has republished it. You can find it in most good libraries. The Daughters of St. Paul published an edition in the late 1960’s early 70’s that had the CofTrent along with some of the documents of Vatican II. The Catechism of the Council of Trent was originally published as a guide for priests to assure that they taught the sam Catholic doctrine everywhere. Today since most people can read, it has been in continous reprint since first published by Pope St. Pius V.

    [url:1crxgfgz]http://www.baroniuspress.com/book.php?wid=56&bid=27[/url:1crxgfgz]

    [url:1crxgfgz]http://www.aquinasandmore.com/catholic-books/Catechism-of-the-Council-of-Trent/sku/1419[/url:1crxgfgz]

    Used copies

    [url:1crxgfgz]http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/submitRare.cgi?author=&title=catechism+trent&keyword=&isbn=&order=PRICE&ordering=ASC&binding=Any+Binding&min=&max=&exclude=&match=Y&dispCurr=USD&timeout=20&store=ABAA&store=Alibris&store=Abebooks&store=Amazon&store=Antiqbook&store=Biblio&store=Bibliophile&store=Bibliopoly&store=Booksandcollectibles&store=Half&store=ILAB&store=Powells&store=Strandbooks&store=Wbm&store=ZVAB[/url:1crxgfgz]

    James: I did not mean for my comments to be comprehensive, there were any number of reasons why literacy was so low. My point was to stress how written material was expensive and not commonplace as it is today. Books in public settings, such as Bibles in Catholic Churches that were set out for those who could read were usually chained down in order to prevent them from being stolen and re-sold. You are probably too young to remember pay phones with phonebooks that were attached by a heavy cable in order to prevent people from walking away with them. But it was the same concept.

    That aside, Cathedrals were called the Bibles of the Illiterate, because many a large Cathedral prior to the reformation were painted, or filled with statues and carved depictions of Bible themes, in this manner those who could not read words, could “read” the stories from the Bible and the lives of the Saints on the interior and exterior of Cathedrals.

    #9969

    James
    Member
    "LARobert":1fxg3fdk wrote:
    You are probably too young to remember pay phones with phonebooks that were attached by a heavy cable in order to prevent people from walking away with them.[/quote:1fxg3fdk]
    On the contrary. At the local pool I work at, we have a pay-phone. It’s kinda funny, actually <img src=” title=”Razz” />
    #9971

    Papa.Cod
    Member

    I KInda like how James’ “shotgun approach” was answered but not mine…..way to educate me in your faith guys. I have questions but James only had statements…

    #9990

    Andres Ortiz
    Keymaster
    "Papa.Cod":27v1xplq wrote:
    I KInda like how James’ “shotgun approach” was answered but not mine…..way to educate me in your faith guys. I have questions but James only had statements…[/quote:27v1xplq]
    A shotgun approach is when you sling random anti-Catholic rhetoric in any thread regardless of the topic. It’s not multiple quotes in a post. LARobert answered you in his post immediately following yours. Go back and read it.

    "LARobert to Papa.Cod":27v1xplq wrote:
    Many links to sources where you can find out how accurate your sources are have been given to you. I sense a fear that you may find out that what you have been taught is not what reality is. Yet something brings you back. Since you simply make rude comments, both to the Catholics on this forum, and even your friend, but give no support, I can’t really give your statements much credence based on your shotgun approach and your ad hominem attacks.

    No I don’t think you are ready to go to a priest, you don’t seem ready to listen to anyone who presents anything you don’t want to hear. It’s fine if after giving an honest look at something you reject it, but to reject it outright without honest investigation seems a bit juvenile.[/quote:27v1xplq]

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