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April 5, 2005 at 4:51 am #4080AnonymousInactive
I will refer you to the following. Read it and let me know your thoughts.
~VictorApril 7, 2005 at 9:59 pm #4100AnonymousInactive
Yes, I’ve read this before, Stigmus. I peruse Akin’s site pretty frequently, due to his history of reformed tradition prior to joining the RCC.
The first time I was confronted with this was in the reading of Jay Adams’ books, beginning with COMPETENT TO COUNSEL. I was shocked to read his statement that he didn’t tell people in counseling session that Christ died for their sins, because he was Calvinist in his theology and he thus believed in a limited atonement, and his position that he didn’t know if the counselee was one of the elect or not. Despite having grown up in a Baptist tradition, and being now in a Reformed tradition (PCUSA), I wasn’t up to snuff with that part of their teaching (don’t let anyone give you a hard time about poorly instructed Catholics — it’s true in the other traditions, too!).
Tell you what — before I dilute this thread with my own story, I’ll post it in the introductions, unless I’m too embarrassed, and, if so, I’ll PM you, Stigmus…April 8, 2005 at 6:11 am #4105AnonymousInactive
Coolio, no prob….
~VictorApril 8, 2005 at 9:47 pm #4109AnonymousInactive
[quote:2lj6fwbf]I’d like to hear it in the words of believers rather than just read it in the Catechism…[/quote:2lj6fwbf]
Sure thing Elka…
The fundamental difference is whether Grace can be rejected. The Calvinist believes in “irresistable Grace”. For Catholics, Grace can always be resisted. When we say predestination we mean that a persons Graces were already planned before hand. But these Graces do not gurantee salvation. That is the crux of the difference.
That make sense?
~VictorApril 8, 2005 at 10:25 pm #4110AnonymousInactive
You know, sometimes, I’m tempted to believe the TULIP scenario because of driving in Richmond, VA.
Some of these folks are just proof positive of the utter depravity…
Never mind, weak attempt at humor…April 8, 2005 at 11:21 pm #4112AnonymousInactive
Objectively it may be very true. But I have a hard time grasping that those people never had a chance. Just seems like a cruel joke. It’s like God giving us the ability to thirst but we never had a chance to drink out of the pool of Grace.
~VictorApril 15, 2005 at 6:42 pm #4144
Without investigating predestination extensively here’s how I understand it:
It is certainly not like the Calvinistic view that we are all predestined to go somewhere and there’s nothing we can do about it.
I think it is more along the lines that God, being omniscient, already knows what will happen to us, but does not decide for us to go there. God destines all people to join him in heaven, but that may not be everyone’s final destiny based on what we do on earth.
That’s it in a nutshell. ” title=”Wink” />April 22, 2005 at 3:04 am #4282
[quote:1e8qiw5i]You know, sometimes, I’m tempted to believe the TULIP scenario [/quote:1e8qiw5i]
What is the “TULIP scenario”?April 22, 2005 at 6:32 pm #4291AnonymousInactive
TULIP is the acronym for five major tenants of Reformed theology. Like, T stands for Total Depravity of mankind, L for Limited Atonement, etc.
If you hit that James Akin link that Victor inserted, you can get more info and a RC perspective.April 22, 2005 at 6:58 pm #4293AnonymousInactive
I just have a question… If we are predestined to go to heaven or hell, and we have the ability to chose why wouldn’t you want to chose heaven?? ” title=”Confused” />April 22, 2005 at 11:17 pm #4306AnonymousInactive
I think most people would choose that Rick. It’s just a matter of saying YES on a daily basis.
This is difficult for many Protestants to grasp. Read above and you can get a good feeling for what we are talking about.
~VictorApril 22, 2005 at 11:20 pm #4307AnonymousInactive
Yeah I read all of it, it just seems like it shouldn’t be THAT difficult to understand and pick a side. Ultimately though, God will make that decision and whether we believe in him or not we’re all heading towards the same two doors. Which we go in us entirely up to him, but we can help ourselves by proving to him that we deserve the good door.April 22, 2005 at 11:27 pm #4308AnonymousInactive
Technically you choose your destination. He only allows you to choose according to how you responded to His Grace down on earth. You know what I mean?
~VictorApril 22, 2005 at 11:32 pm #4309AnonymousInactive
Yeah, that’s basically what I meant when I said that we [b:24qcbcpo]must to prove to him that we deserve to be in his kingdom.[/b:24qcbcpo] The proof being you’re actions here on earth.April 25, 2005 at 5:00 pm #4334AnonymousInactive
Pez, in Reformed theology, it is taught that you don’t get to choose. Salvation is completely from God — including the ability to recognize your need for salvation. Without that Grace, no one makes the choice to follow Christ. “Even our tears of repentance are stained with sin,” is from a Puritan poem.
From the Catholic perspective, there is an understanding of the individual participation in the salvation drama that is missing in the Reformed, although modern Reformed theologians speak about Predestination and the sovereignty of God in more palatible terms…April 27, 2005 at 12:49 am #4345
[quote:1z629j0u]I just have a question… If we are predestined to go to heaven or hell, and we have the ability to chose why wouldn’t you want to chose heaven?? ” title=”Confused” />[/quote:1z629j0u]
One cannot be predestined and choose at the same time. That’s the discussion in this thread, basically.
Either God chooses or you choose.
[quote:1z629j0u]From the Catholic perspective, there is an understanding of the individual participation in the salvation drama that is missing in the Reformed…[/quote:1z629j0u]
Yes, very much so. God judges us by what we do on earth. We essentially choose our own destiny by choosing to follow the will of God or not.
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