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May 30, 2007 at 11:41 pm #8438AnonymousInactive
” title=”Sad” /> It appears you got the answer for everything in the BibleMay 31, 2007 at 12:38 am #8439AnonymousInactive
[color=red:ib1ikcme]Ron said “Not if they are dead, no I don’t.”[/color:ib1ikcme]
Prayer for the dead is well-documented within the early Christian church, both among prominent church fathers and the Christian community in general. The Roman Catholic position is that the early Christians were praying for souls in purgatory. The Eastern Orthodox position is that the early Christians were praying for souls in hades. Prayer for the dead continues in both these traditions, but many Protestant denominations later rejected the practice explicitly or implicitly.
The tomb of Abercius of Hieropolis in Phrygia (latter part of the 2nd century)bears the inscription: Let every friend who observes this pray for me, i.e. Abercius, who throughout speaks in the first person.
The inscriptions in the Roman catacombs bear similar witness to the practice, by the occurrence of such phrases as:
Mayst thou live among the saints (3rd century);
May God refresh the soul of . . . ;
Peace be with them.
Among Church writers Tertullian ( 230) is the first to mention prayers for the dead, and not as a concession to natural sentiment, but as a duty: [color=red:ib1ikcme]The widow who does not pray for her dead husband has as good as divorced[/color:ib1ikcme] [color=red:ib1ikcme]him. [/color:ib1ikcme]This passage occurs in one of his later Montanist writings, dating from the beginning of the 3rd century. Subsequent writers similarly make incidental mention of the practice as prevalent, but not as unlawful or even disputed (until Arius challenged it towards the end of the 4th century). The most famous instance is Saint Augustine’s prayer for his mother, Monica, at the end of the 9th book of his Confessions, written around 398.
An important element in the liturgies of the various Churches consisted of the diptychs, or lists of names of living and dead who were to be commemorated at the Eucharist. To be inserted in these lists was a confirmation of one’s orthodoxy, and out of the practice grew the canonization of saints; on the other hand, to be excluded was a condemnation.
In the middle of the 3rd century we find St. Cyprian enjoining that there should be no oblation or public prayer made for a deceased layman who had broken the Church’s rule by appointing a cleric trustee under his will: “He ought not to be named in the priests prayer who has done his best to detain the clergy from the altar.”
Although it is not possible, as a rule, to name dates for the exact words used in the ancient liturgies, yet the universal occurrence of these diptychs and of definite prayers for the dead in all parts of the Church in the 4th and 5th centuries tends to show how primitive such prayers were. The language used in the prayers for the departed is very reserved, and contains no suggestion of Purgatory or any place or state of pain. We may cite the following from the so-called Liturgy of St James:
Remember, O Lord, the God of Spirits and of all Flesh, those whom we have remembered and those whom we have not remembered, men of the true faith, from righteous Abel unto to-day; do thou thyself give them rest there in the land of the living, in thy kingdom, in the delight of Paradise, in the bosom of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, our holy fathers, from whence pain and sorrow and sighing have fled away, where the light of thy countenance visiteth them and always shineth upon them.
Public prayers were only offered for those who were believed to have died as faithful members of the Church. But Saint Perpetua, who was martyred in 202, believed herself to have been encouraged in a vision to pray for her brother, who had died in his eighth year, almost certainly unbaptized; and a later vision assured her that her prayer was answered and he had been translated from punishment. St. Augustine thought it needful to point out that the narrative was not canonical Scripture, and contended that the child had perhaps been baptized although Augustine’s own speculation was, likewise, “not canonical Scripture”.May 31, 2007 at 4:10 am #8440AnonymousInactive
Mr Weathers you posted twice – you get two replies:
1 you said:
[quote:126iyodp] It appears you got the answer for everything in the Bible[/quote:126iyodp]
I believe it does provide the answers for everything! Check what Jesus
said in John 8:31, 32 – [color=red:126iyodp] Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “[u:126iyodp][b:126iyodp]If you abide in My word[/b:126iyodp][/u:126iyodp], you are My disciples indeed. And [u:126iyodp][b:126iyodp]you shall know the truth[/b:126iyodp][/u:126iyodp], and the truth shall make you free.” [/color:126iyodp]
2 your second post consists of many resources of people that feel praying to the dead helps – So lets put it thiis way – if the whole world feels its okay but Scriptures don’t, I won’t – As Ecclesiastes 12:13 says –
[color=red:126iyodp] Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.[/color:126iyodp]June 12, 2007 at 11:31 pm #8460AnonymousInactive
I often wonder how when the Amish men make a bedroom set how do they install the mirror on the dresser without seeing themselfs?.also it must be hard when there is a marriage or a child is born there wont be any pics to look at 40years down the road.June 13, 2007 at 3:32 am #8461AnonymousInactive
[quote:1kf0g1rq]also it must be hard when there is a marriage or a child is born there wont be any pics to look at 40years down the road.[/quote:1kf0g1rq]
Whenever the Scriptures are taken out of context, and the Church is calumated by those who are led astray you do have to wonder. In the case of the Amish they are usually not exposed to much of the outside world except for the year in their late teens where they are permitted to experience the outside world before they are incorporated into the Church. I know a couple of people who now live “In the world” who express that growing up they just never imagined what we have in the outside world, so never missed it. They do however get a sound indoctrination that all the “english” or those outside their community are not to be trusted, Protestant or Catholics. But it seems from talking to them they don’t have the usual protestant calumnies about the Church such as that Catholics “Worship Statues” or that we “Worship Mary”, which the run of the mill Evangelical has been brainwashed into thinking by the misinformation they are fed. They are simply taught not to mix and not to be curious of others.June 13, 2007 at 8:50 pm #8463AnonymousInactive
Mr Weathers says:
I often wonder how when the Amish men make a bedroom set how do they install the mirror on the dresser without seeing themselfs?.also it must be hard when there is a marriage or a child is born there wont be any pics to look at 40years down the road.[/quote:2s4741pv]
And who told you having pictures of loved ones means you can pray to them? There is a big, BIG difference so why confuse the issue?June 13, 2007 at 10:33 pm #8464AnonymousInactive
[quote:gq6coiqb]And who told you having pictures of loved ones means you can pray to them? There is a big, BIG difference so why confuse the issue?[/quote:gq6coiqb]
Hmm, So Ronald can assert that the fact I have art that depicts our Lady and St. John at the foot of the Cross, or a statue of Moses or of a Saint and that I as a Catholic it is proof that I bow down to graven images and worship them, even though I have said I don’t worship statues, and the Catholic Church forbids the worship of statues, contrary to the anti-catholic sources he has been taught by. Any other apparent disobedience to the command to not make any images of anything in the heavens or on earth by other than Catholics is not a rupture of the law. We can also ignore the brazen serpent and the Cherubim and other images that adorned the Temple in Jerusalem. In some cases he tells us that the law is abolished and in others it is not. But in all things only he can tell us. How blind I have been to have not recognized that the unchanging teachings of the Church from the time of the Apostles was all wrong, and that Ron and his selective interpretation is correct. Too bad it took 2000 years for someone to explain it all to the world, those poor souls for the first two millenia who did not have Ron as their prophet and guide.June 14, 2007 at 3:26 pm #8467AnonymousInactive
concerning your remark of:
[quote:1iyiz9b1]Too bad it took 2000 years for someone to explain it all to the world, those poor souls for the first two millenia[/quote:1iyiz9b1]
Scriptures tell us –
[color=darkred:1iyiz9b1]Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace[/color:1iyiz9b1] -(Romans 11:5) in other words, there has always been a remnant of true believers Mr. LARoberts, whether you see it or not.September 16, 2007 at 3:02 pm #8599AnonymousInactive
Always able to learn, and not having had my brain cast in cement like many Protestants who interpret their Scripture the way their Pastor tells them, without the benefit of History, Sacred Tradition, the Fathers etc. I’ve recently read this very good article by former Protestant Jimmy Akins on the breaking down of the Ten Commandments. I vaguely remember from my Jewish Childhood the topic discussed, but as the class did not discuss the Catholic and Protestant breakdown of the Ten Commandments, because what Christians had to say about it was their own squabble, and the commandments where “ours” and not theirs anyway.
[url:zd5mlp3w]http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/numberng.htm[/url:zd5mlp3w]October 13, 2008 at 9:54 pm #8907AnonymousInactive
I hope we all must agreet that only we beget is identical to us.
What we creat is inferior to us.
I must, then, accept the sculpture, itself, is not bad.
But, let me ask you, the patinet author – I am really grateful for carrying out your responsibility!
Was there any sculpture that represented God the Father, that was allowed in the time of the Bible?
Is there any person who can represente Christ’ image in man-made arts, without distorting his pure character?
Can you say you are entirely free of it?
If you think you can send me a picture that does not distort the image of Christ and Father, please let me see it.
Yes, the sculpture itseelf is not bad, but we must never make the image or icons of God the Father and the Son. Don’t you think you are angry your son represent your image with the picture of dogs? I am not using an exagerated language. The icons you have made are really that inferior and inferior enough to distort God’s true image!
Remember, what you beget is only identical to us.
See how serenly looking Christ is in Catholic images.
But, even that can not remind us the images of Christ in his earthly journey – for he has no wordly majesty to attract us…
Also, there is none in the world who can remind us of his heavenly images.
Also, to proclaim someone a saint after his death, you must be sure he is a real Christian. How can we know? How can we have that degree of omniscience…
Let us finish our talk.October 15, 2008 at 6:29 am #8908AnonymousInactive
[quote:t73os7kt]we must never make the image or icons of God the Father and the Son.[/quote:t73os7kt]
Where do you get this from?October 15, 2008 at 9:34 pm #8909AnonymousInactive
First, we can never represent both Crhist’s earthly and heavenly images, the images of Father without distorting them.
First, especially Father is invisible – Remember, what Michelangelo did in a Catholic church dome…
Second, none in the earth now has the memory of Christ’s image.
Thrdly, most of all, to make man-made images of God, every artist must shape God in their own image – thus giving chance to humanism.
It is God who made us in his image. The role seems getting reversed, and the Catholic Church has functioned the greated encouragement to this tragedy.
I’ve recently seen Christ -Faithbook, which was produced in the imitation of Facebook or Cyberspace in a Catholic school. The children passed by it surprisingdly, and when I asked a teacher of the school, she replied, “It makes Jesus closer to us!”
Where is reverence! Is it that easy for us not to be reluctant to advertise God in the public that lightly?
I am not really saying this as a joke. I am really serious. I am a lover and follower of God. I can send you the picture, next time, see Jesus facebook in the internet.October 15, 2008 at 9:38 pm #8910AnonymousInactive
Now, I will give you an example of how God abhored what Catholic church did.
If you are wrong, please take your responsibility to present this issue to your Church publicly – for this can be either a serious threat to your church or can solve the misunderstanding of Your church and other denominations.
If you escape when I am right, or if I escape when you are right, both us must give answer to our omniscient Judge.
See Exodus 32
The Golden Calf
1Now when the people saw that Moses (A)delayed to come down from the mountain, the people assembled about Aaron and said to him, “Come, (B)make us a god who will go before us; as for (C)this Moses, the man who brought us up from the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.”
2Aaron said to them, “(D)Tear off the gold rings which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.”
3Then all the people tore off the gold rings which were in their ears and brought them to Aaron.
4He took this from their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool and made it into a (E)molten calf; and they said, “This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt.”
5Now when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the LORD.”
6So the next day they rose early and (F)offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and (G)the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up (H)to play.
7Then the LORD spoke to Moses, “Go down at once, for your people, whom (I)you brought up from the land of Egypt, have (J)corrupted themselves.
8″They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. (K)They have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and (L)have sacrificed to it and said, ‘(M)This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!'”
9(N)The LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are (O)an obstinate people.
10″Now then (P)let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and (Q)I will make of you a great nation.”
11Then (R)Moses entreated the LORD his God, and said, “O LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?
12″Why should (S)the Egyptians speak, saying, ‘With evil intent He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about doing harm to Your people.
13″Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants to whom You (T)swore by Yourself, and said to them, ‘I will (U)multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and (V)all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.'”
14(W)So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
15(X)Then Moses turned and went down from the mountain with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand, (Y)tablets which were written on both sides; they were written on one side and the other.
16The tablets were God’s work, and the writing was God’s writing engraved on the tablets.
17Now when Joshua heard the sound of the people as they shouted, he said to Moses, “There is a sound of war in the camp.”
18But he said,
“It is not the sound of the cry of triumph,
Nor is it the sound of the cry of defeat;
But the sound of singing I hear.”
19It came about, as soon as Moses came near the camp, that (Z)he saw the calf and the dancing; and Moses’ anger burned, and (AA)he threw the tablets from his hands and shattered them at the foot of the mountain.
20(AB)He took the calf which they had made and burned it with fire, and ground it to powder, and scattered it over the surface of the water and made the sons of Israel drink it.
21Then Moses said to Aaron, “What did this people do to you, that you have brought such great sin upon them?”
22Aaron said, “Do not let the anger of my lord burn; you know the people yourself, (AC)that they are prone to evil.
23″For (AD)they said to me, ‘Make a god for us who will go before us; for this Moses, the man who brought us up from the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.’
24″I said to them, ‘Whoever has any gold, let them tear it off.’ So they gave it to me, and (AE)I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf.”
25Now when Moses saw that the people were out of control–for Aaron had (AF)let them get out of control to be a derision among their enemies–
26then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, “Whoever is for the LORD, come to me!” And all the sons of Levi gathered together to him.
27He said to them, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.'”
28So (AG)the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day.
29Then Moses said, “Dedicate yourselves today to the LORD–for every man has been against his son and against his brother–in order that He may bestow a blessing upon you today.”
30On the next day Moses said to the people, “(AH)You yourselves have committed a great sin; and now I am going up to the LORD, perhaps I can (AI)make atonement for your sin.”
31Then Moses returned to the LORD, and said, “Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a (AJ)god of gold for themselves.
32″But now, if You will, forgive their sin–and if not, please blot me out from Your (AK)book which You have written!”
33The LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, (AL)I will blot him out of My book.
34″But go now, lead the people (AM)where I told you Behold, (AN)My angel shall go before you; nevertheless (AO)in the day when I punish, (AP)I will punish them for their sin.”
35(AQ)Then the LORD smote the people, because of (AR)what they did with the calf which Aaron had made.October 15, 2008 at 9:52 pm #8911AnonymousInactive
Here, Israliests were getting impatient as Moses was not coming down from the mountin, where he had been supposed to get the tarbernacles.
They said, “we don’t know what has happened to him.” Aron agreed with them. However, here, we must watch Aron’s language. After ordering the production of the idol, Aron proclaimed,
“This is your god who brought you up out of Egyipt.” (Exodus 32: 3)
(32: 4- 5)
When Aron saw this, he built an altar in fornt of the calf and announced, “Tommorw there will be a festival to the Lord. “
He is not only approving the idol. Aron is actually using the golden calft as the representation of God – there will be a festival to the Lord.”
Please, read it to the end, and see how this act burned God’s anger and how Moses became despaired of his people because of this. Moses broke the tarbernacle to rubbles before them.
Plese, let us admit it. You can deny this, but We can never say God was not angry with the created representation of men.
Remember, what we beget is only identical to us. What we creat is inferior to us. This is why the Bible emphasizes Father begot his son.
Let us accept the Truth. Just get rid of the representations of God. See yourself how non-believers and Christianas are being unconsioucly crippled in their perceptions to recognize God in his orinal holiness.
Why do we need to fight.
Please. I do not have any power or fame to make voice against Catholic Church. But, this teaching, I believe, many Christians really agree with.
If you can deal with this issue publicly, please do that. I was a Catholic, myself. I am writing this for our good.
If I am wrong, let me be wrong.
If you are right, let you be right and me be wrong, again.
Thank you for your reply.
Please do not delete this.October 15, 2008 at 9:56 pm #8912AnonymousInactive
I add this.
We can never say God was angry because it was the cow, not human image.
Both are same to God, for he is too holy to accept such a service.October 16, 2008 at 5:32 am #8913AnonymousInactive
I don’t doubt your sincerity, but I asked you my question to flush you out into the open. I suspect that you have been influenced by the errors of the SDA or Watchtower, both Arian, both being anti-Catholic, and while claiming the importance of the Sacred Scriptures they along with Trinitarian Protestantism follow a callous disregard for Sacred Scripture.
Your first error is in isolating Sacred Scripture and not seeing it for what it is, what the Catholic Church treats it as. As Catholic we hold the Sacred Scriptures to be the Living Word of God. It is for this reason that the Scriptures are not simply used as a tool for confounding the truth but rather we incorporate it into our very being. A look at an authentic Catholic life would include the example of the Church in the daily Liturgy. The Liturgy of the Hours, or Breviary and daily Mass are composed primarily of prayers from Sacred Scripture.
Now to how you have erred in your lengthy posting. Regarding isolating Scripture. God over the course of centuries laid out his plan for our redemption. If we look at the chronology of Scripture you will note a major theme starting with the Creation and Fall. After the Fall of mankind and the expulsion from Eden, God put into place what will in the end be fulfilled by the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, Christ Jesus. While the Covenant with Moses, and the entirety of Israel is a very important advancement it is only one step in bringing the fullness of the truth to mankind. Do not forget that prior to the Covenant with Moses, there where those with Noah and Abraham. God does not reveal His entire plan at once, or mankind would not have accepted it. His plan does not stop with Moses, but goes on to become clear only in the conyext of Christ.
If you accept the Torah, as the Word of God, you cannot simply post what you have posted and overlook the description of the Temple in Jerusalem. God orders that cherubs and Brazen Bulls other images that would have been forbidden in your reading of the Scripture you quote are commanded. Let’s not forget the Brazen Serpent and the angels over the Ark. So either God lied, or is inconsistant, or you are reading the Sciptures through the myopic eyes of Ellen G. White or some other self appointed “prophet” who takes the Bible out of context and who’s insights ignore what Christians have believed from the time of the Apostles.
Now God has not simply commanded as the average Protestant is taught, “You shall not create graven images.” where most Protestants stop reading or quoting, but He continues, “and bow down to them and worship them…” God, if we read Scripture honestly does not forbid the making of an image of Himself or Angels, or anything in heaven or on earth absolutely, but rather as something that is worshipped. If we are to follow your isolating of Scriptures to it’s logical extreme, then you must destroy any family photographs that you have, for they are images of something from heaven or on earth, and do not depict every aspect of the person in the photo. Even more to the point, any photo of someone who is now dead, as it does not represent their current state would be an abomination.
As to particular images, I don’t like modern art for the most part. I also don’t like some of the sugar sweet holy cards and poorly produced religious art. That however is a matter of taste, and looking at religious art as a window into heaven, (As the Eastern Rite Catholics and Eastern Orthodox refer to icons) they do inspire us to higher and holier lives, when we are disposed properly. In that I while I don’t really care for the above mentioned styles, I also realize that Art, Sacred or Secular is not created with me in mind. Now this being said, there is never any excuse for such vile depictions of our Lord as those which depict crucifixes in jars of urine, nor other
Well enough from me tonight. You will be added to my prayers.October 16, 2008 at 5:08 pm #8914AnonymousInactive
You are not replying to the arguments I suggest.
First, Aron uses the golden calf as the representaion of the Lord – He clearly said this is a God who brought you out of Egypt, and he said Isralits would have festival to the Lord, using the image.
Second, God proclaimed the act as “corrupt.” HE was not pleased with the representation of Him.
Plese, answer, according to these two points.
I am not against the scupture, itself. I am also really greatful because I was one of the extrem logics, who tried to throw every photo in my room. Now, I know I do not need to.
But, my argument is we must never make the images of God, the Father and the Son.
It is impossible for us not to distort the true images of God in our reproduction,
1 we are inferior to Him.
2 we have no memory of God’s physical image.
Remember, again, What we beget is only identical to us and what we creat is inferior to us.
Here, see what God is doing. I did not quote the bible out of the context. God, himself, proclaimed against Aron’s deed to represent him through the golden calf.
Please, reply to this argument.
Personally, Exposal to the icons and images of Christ made me more diffuclut to recognize true Him. I had been so preoccupied with the death of Christ, because all the crosses in my house suggested his death, not resurecction.
Unless some rituals work for evryone and are biblical, you can not universalize it.
The human reproduction of God’s images are impossible, unbiblical, not beneficial to anyone. It can really hurt some vulnerable unconcious minds.
The icons can work for you. But It does not give you authority to universalize it. It can either increase danger of corrupted misuse dramstically or hurt so many people who can not adapt themselves to the universalization.
Please, then, why do you think God was angry against Aron!
Please, give me any example that Israliets represened God the Father in their images in the biblical times!!!!
I was the very person who tried to defend Catholicism about this point as a catholic.
Please answer to my points!!!
I do not belong to any specific domination, now.
Please, let me learn from you, if I attack God’s true Church.
I, myself, cannot allow that to happen.
It seems many extreme protestans log in this webpage to debate, merely for the sake of debate. That is meaningless. We try to know the Truth, and when we know the Truth, eithher of us must desert his or her own thoughts. Truth is by nature exclusive. You are wrong or I am right. Let me be wrong, rather, if you are right.
Thank you for adding me to your prayer. My name is Andrew Keon Cha. Plase add my full name to your prayer, for God called me by name.
You were already added to my prayer.
Blessings.October 16, 2008 at 7:18 pm #8915AnonymousInactive
In a direct answer to your question, and Biblical citation, aside from using a poor translation, you still isolate the individual text from the entire Bible, a very dangerous action, one that leads people like yourself into strange errors.
Having been raised a Jew, I looked at the text in the Hebrew, as well as various translations in Latin, Spanish and English. Reliable translations and the Hebrew text quotes Aaron referring to the Golden Calf as “these are your gods, who brought you out of Egypt.” and the text speaks of his and the people’s grumblings and their being upset by the delay of Moses on the mountain, prompting them to reject the True God and fashion themselves an idol, to represent other god(s). So I reject as a false interpretation that the Calf was a representation of God. The very foundation of your argument is false, based on the correct translation of the text.
What translation may I ask are you using?October 16, 2008 at 10:04 pm #8916About Catholics TeamKeymaster
Yes, as LARobert says, the golden calf was another god, not a representation of the true God.
The Hebrews were worshiping the golden calf as a replacement for God. This is wrong in itself, but to suggest that statues in Catholicism are somehow worshiped as God or a replacement for God is ridiculous.
The statues point to God, but are not God. People are not worshiping the material statue itself, but the very thing it represents – God.October 17, 2008 at 12:35 am #8917AnonymousInactive
I used New American Standard Bible. There, it used the singular god.
I see the NIV. It is using the plural.
However, we must not forget what Aron is saying, “We shall have the festival to the Lord.” To say this, Arom must have concluded that he was using the golden calf as the tool to represent God, or how could he say we will have the fesitval to the Lord?
Your argument makes Aron’s action impossible. He said, “these are gods who brought you out of Egypt” Who brought Israelites out of Egypt? Israliests knew the expression was indicated toward the Lord. “The god, who brought you out of Egypt..” you will see this quote used again, again, in many books of the old testament, untill the part, where Israelites were exiled to Babylon. Then, the expression was changed to “the God, who brought you out of Babylon.”
If the plural part seems problematic to you, I shall say it actually supports my case. Aron is not only representing God in a wrong way, he is actively distorting the character of God to gratify the desires of Israelites – “As you like it, you have various concepts of true God as many as you want. You define him. I will give you this as the sample.” Remember, Israelies were already corrupted a lot when they had been influenced by Egyptians, who believed in many gods.
If you deny this, you can never logically justify youself of why Aron said, “We shall have the festival to the Lord”, who brought Israliets out of Egypt! Both were very symbolic indications to which Israelites were too familiar. Aron could not use them lightly!
Remember, what we beget is only identical to us. what we creat is inferior to us. God begot his Son. We can never draw God’s images through our perception, without distoring his True image. I agreed with you that the sculpture and icons of the saints were not bad, already. But, there was no example in the Bible, which showed Isralites used the man-made images of God, officially. The reproduction of the images of Christ were started when Christians in Rome were affected by Roman cultures, which used sculptrues to represent their pagan gods. I heard this from my catholic world religion teacher.
Even though our heart yearns for it, I believe we must never reproduce the images of God the Father and Son. The Son had no earthly majesty to attract us, and God, the Father has majesty too great for us to approach.
Remeber, how Israliets begged Moses to stop God’s direct presence over them. They were almost faint, even hearing his voice alone. “Speak to yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die (Exodus 20:19)”
To define a God in human terms is a sin to God. Remeber, it was God, who answered to Moses, “I am who I am.”
Please, justify why Aron said “we shall have the festival to the Lord.”, after having decided to use the golden calf as the Idol.
Let Truth triumph over us.
Please send me a picture or icon of God, which does not creat wrong impressions of the perfect image of the Son, and the Father, whose face nobody could really bare.
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