Again Mr. LARoberts
why always the cheap shots such as this?
Once again, (and until you have returned to Christ and His Church, [b:169vltlc][u:169vltlc]I expect distortions to come from you Ronaldo)[/u:169vltlc][/b:169vltlc] you seem to want to tell Catholics what you say the Scriptures say, and what you want us to believe the Catholic Church teaches…. As usual you are wrong. [/quote:169vltlc]
Now to your post –
[quote:169vltlc]Scriptures tell us that not even death can separate us from Christ. “[N]either death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 8:38-39).[/quote:169vltlc]
The “us” are saved people that Paul is talking about – i.e. those that trust in Him alone by His shed blood alone!
[quote:169vltlc]If we are united with Christ, then we are also united with each other. [/quote:169vltlc]
Yet you claim that one cannot know if they are united (saved) in this life, that would be a sin of presumtion I think your church say. As I stated above that word IF is a might big word considering you can’t know!
[quote:169vltlc]Those who have departed before us in faith are the “cloud of witnesses” that surround us in Hebrews 12:1. [/quote:169vltlc]
Those mentioned we know did it the right way and were examples for us, nothing said about them hearing and answering anyone’s prayers
Scripture teaches us that “the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16). Who is more righteous than one united with Christ in heaven? These Christians have “been made perfect” (Heb. 12:23)[/quote:169vltlc]
So what about that makes you assume they can hear everyone down here or that they have God’s power to answer us? Are you like the mormons that think when we die we become gods?
[quote:169vltlc] and so we should expect their prayers to be more effective than any we could offer here on earth. Why not petition them to intercede for us with their prayers? [/quote:169vltlc]
Because our ways are not God’s ways and I’ve given you many of the Scriptures that does not allow it – that is why not!
[quote:169vltlc]Some argue that those in heaven cannot hear us. They are dead. This would imply a division in the Body of Christ that cannot and does not exist.[/quote:169vltlc]
Why? How? It only shows that God is God and no one else deserves to be close to imitate being a god, it does nothing to separate us except for them being in a different dimension in which they have been separated from us by death
[quote:169vltlc]Those who have died in Christ are more alive than you and I! Christ Himself was seen conversing with Elijah and Moses in Mark 9:4. Death did not present a boundary for them.[/quote:169vltlc]
And they never communicated with the others up there either- so what is that proving?
[quote:169vltlc] Furthermore, scripture gives us examples of prayer petitions directly aimed at those in heaven. In the Psalms we find petitions to “Bless the Lord, O you His angels, you mighty ones who do His word, hearkening to the voice of His word! Bless the Lord, all His hosts, His ministers that do His will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise Him in the heights! Praise Him, all His angels, praise Him, all His host!” (Ps. 148:1-2). [/quote:169vltlc]
so one praises the God for His wonderful work and how awesome it is – nothing there about praying to them
[quote:169vltlc]There is more evidence that angels (and saints) can hear us in heaven. In John’s Revelation we read of this heavenly scene. “[An] angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4). Here we see angels presenting our prayers to God. Later in that same book, John tells us of humans in heaven as well. “[T]he twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:. Here we see heavenly humans offering our prayers before God. [/quote:169vltlc]
A simple picture of the praising of God going on in Heaven – nothing about them hearing and petitoning for us there in either one of those examples
[quote:169vltlc]The simple conclusion from the scriptures is that those in heaven, angels and saints, can hear our prayers. And we should ask them to pray for us. [/quote:169vltlc]
No sir that is your unbiblical conclusion and does not prove any such thing except that is your wish for it to say!
[quote:169vltlc]The Church Triumphant (those in heaven) remain very involved with the Church Militant (those still here on earth). Christ warns us against offending children for “in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10). [/quote:169vltlc]
Yes angels have been know to be used by God but even those are only fellow servants – Rev. 19:10 and 22:9
[quote:169vltlc]Surely it is a good thing for us to ask our family and friends here on earth to pray for us.[/quote:169vltlc]
I agree with that 100%
[quote:169vltlc] As death cannot separate those living in Christ, it is also a good thing for us to ask our departed loved ones to continue praying for us.[/quote:169vltlc]
But death doea change a lot of things including the rules Mr. LARoberts
I do not think any good Protestant would object to a man who lost his mother kneeling down before her grave and saying, “Mom, I’m sure having a rough time right now. Please pray for me.” This man has faith that his mother is in heaven and can hear him and aid him with her prayers.[/quote:169vltlc]
MAybe you could do that but those that love God obey Him – and notice that His faith might appear noble but it isn’t in God’s way – it’s in your way – big difference!