Jon, you said:
[quote:3e7e8h1h]Ron, do you understand the implications of what you just said? I knew that was the answer you were going to give too.
You more or less said:
Real Christians don’t sin [/quote:3e7e8h1h]
Yes I know what I said because that is what sort of what Scriptures say (let me explain) – Romans 6:1,2,6-14[color=red:3e7e8h1h] 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.[/color:3e7e8h1h]
[quote:3e7e8h1h]God uses tragedies to discipline people[/quote:3e7e8h1h]
Well lets see what Scriptures tell us:
Hebrws 13:8 [color=red:3e7e8h1h]Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.[/color:3e7e8h1h]
Hebrews 12:5-11 [color=red:3e7e8h1h]And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
” My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom [u:3e7e8h1h][b:3e7e8h1h]the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives[/b:3e7e8h1h][/u:3e7e8h1h].”
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 [u:3e7e8h1h][b:3e7e8h1h]Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful;[/b:3e7e8h1h][/u:3e7e8h1h] nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.[/color:3e7e8h1h]
Upon turning one’s life over to God one does not forfeit free will. Real Christians do sin and the notion that they can’t is utterly ridiculous. You’re blinding yourself by thinking you can’t sin. (1 John 1: [/quote:3e7e8h1h]
[quote:3e7e8h1h]Again, we have free will. God doesn’t smite people like he did during the times of the Old Testament. He reserves that time for when you die and you will be judged. He uses hardships to draw people closer to him, but not to punish.[/quote:3e7e8h1h]
As you can see, I never said that Christians never sin, but that if the person is really a believer it is most likely that they would not rob or murder anymore for they are a New Creature in Christ – but if they did do that, it isn’t unlikely that the Lord could have caused this accident just as Paul felt if he changed back and didn’t continue in his walk,as 1 Corinthians 9:27 says-[color=red:3e7e8h1h] But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.[/color:3e7e8h1h]
Mr. LARoberts says:(I’ll just comment on part 2 of his reply)
2. Authentic interpretation of Scripture. In the Catholic Church, (we will set aside Oral Tradition for the moment) The Sacred Scriptures are preserved and studied in the context of (not an exaustive list, but the most important considerations) the language, culture and time they where written. Not equal to but important in deciphering what the Scriptures tell us, we have the writings of the Early Church and Church Fathers, these men where the desciples of the Apostles, or their immediate successors.
They heard the explanation of the Faith, both of the Biblical and extra-Biblical accounts straight from the Apostles, and desciples who where first hand hearers of the words spoken by the Word.
That does not make them infallible where as The Written word IS such. Further more Daniel 12:4 tells us – [color=red:3e7e8h1h] “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” [/color:3e7e8h1h] we are in that period today of which those did not say much about.
[quote:3e7e8h1h] With regard to original languages, I’ve brought up before, the greek text as written by St. Paul, (confirmed by recent discoveries of first and second century fragments of the NT books) use the term Is in the process of saving us where the english translation is rendered saved. As Catholics we know that our salvation is not dependent on a split second “decision for Christ” and a one time “accepting Him as our Savior” [/quote:3e7e8h1h]
That is an out right false statement – many Scriptures show that one must have that born again DECISION and can know that they were saved and when!
[quote:3e7e8h1h]but is rather begun at the waters of baptism, where supernatural grace and true faith is given us by the merits of Christ. The Sacraments, are external signs of what Christ promised in scripture He would do, and are also a sign of our submission to Christ and his instructions to the Apostles, [/quote:3e7e8h1h]
Scriptures show that we are saved by the BLOOD of Jesus, not sacraments -i.e. John 3:16,-[color=red:3e7e8h1h] For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, [u:3e7e8h1h][b:3e7e8h1h]that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life[/b:3e7e8h1h][/u:3e7e8h1h][/color:3e7e8h1h] 3:36 -[color=red:3e7e8h1h]He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” [/color:3e7e8h1h]Ephesians 1:7- [color=red:3e7e8h1h]In Him you also trusted, [u:3e7e8h1h][b:3e7e8h1h]after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit [/b:3e7e8h1h][/u:3e7e8h1h]of promise[/color:3e7e8h1h],
[quote:3e7e8h1h]as to what they are commissioned to do. “Go therefore and preach…baptizing…”[/quote:3e7e8h1h]
Yes after the preaching – the point that one hears and believes, then the baptizing which identifies a believer as such, not that the sacrament saves anyone
[quote:3e7e8h1h]knowing we would fall after coming to him because of our own weakness He gave us other helps for the journey of salvation, (or the good race as St. Paul calls it.) [/quote:3e7e8h1h]
[quote:3e7e8h1h]He gave authority for the Apostles to forgive sins, something He himself was questioned about by the religious authorities of His day. [/quote:3e7e8h1h]
Only God can forgive sins and He cannot break His own Word – see my article about this at