The Biblical assessment

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  • #8315
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:2uyg4u07]Why the silly questions? (Mr. LARoberts)[/quote:2uyg4u07]

    Since your habit has been to attack with short outbursts and withold information, it is important to know where you stand. By your curt remark, I could simply use your tact, and ask you if you think some discussions on the Bible are silly? I asked you because of your strange denyal of diansours in a previous post, and as some Biblical literalists still hold to the flat earth theory. They would brand you as a heretic for holding that the world is round, as it to their private interpretation denies as truth what the Bible teaches about the world.

    I asked you about the different stories of the creation which tell a differing account of the sequence of creation to find out if there was anything at all that you agreed with as taught by the Catholic Church. I also commend you with citing another author, as your usual approach is to withold that information and attempt to foster “your” articles as entirely your own, which aside from plagerism makes fact checking a difficult task. Back to the point, as your MO is to attack without giving any reasonable reply, or backing up your outbursts, I felt that I needed to know where you stand. In the past your postings have implied that the Bible was a scientific texts, I think it is important to find out where there are commonalities and where we diverge so we can focus on what separates us, and see if there is a solution (on either side) While I think you are wrong in your attacks on the Catholic Church, and they are based (in what you have copied from others in your prior postings) on the same arguments that I have thought about, prayed for guidance from the Holy Ghost when I was a “Bible Christian” and found to be untrue, dishonest or simply historically inaccurate, I’d rather deal with the errors (from my perspective) you perpetuate, than deal with debates with people who hold shifting or no religious conviction.

    I also wanted to see based on previous postings if you believed that there where no dinasours in the Bible that they are a hoax, if the Bible only accounts for X amount of years since creation than the age of the earth from the point of view of modern science is a lie, as you have thus far not tipped your hand at any portion of the Bible being allegorical or not, except when the Catholic viewpoint on a subject is supported, or when you want to discount alternative points of view or original language discussions.

    [quote:2uyg4u07]they do not contradict. As Henry M Morris says in his book – The Genesis Record – The second chapter of Genesis describes in greater detail certain of the events of the sixth day of creation, dOEs not contradict the account in the first chapter, but is complementary to it.
    How elaborate do you want me to detail this? [/quote:2uyg4u07]

    I want you to elaborate as much as you can. It may end up that Morris is in complete agreement with what the Catholic Church holds is permissible to believe about the stories of creation. We won’t know for two reasons if you don’t elaborate, first I’ve not read Morris, secondly your dismissive answers in the past have not evoked any desire to learn about the Jesus you seem to preach who appears to be a vengeful evil Savior rather than one who came out of love for His Creatures.

    You have been very open about your Parkinsons in the past, which is why I have been open about the Chemo, I’ve also mentioned it because you have in the past been very impatient when someone has not jumped to it and given a quick answer rather than wait for a thoughtful answer.
    I’m going to take a little rest now, I’ve got more things I have been reading that I will post later, but the medicine for the control of nausea sure wipes you out.

    #8336
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Mr LARoberts said:
    [quote:2de4ox7b]
    Since your habit has been to attack with short outbursts and withold information, it is important to know where you stand. By your curt remark, I could simply use your tact, and ask you if you think some discussions on the Bible are silly? I asked you because of your strange denyal of diansours in a previous post, and as some Biblical literalists still hold to the flat earth theory. They would brand you as a heretic for holding that the world is round, as it to their private interpretation denies as truth what the Bible teaches about the world. [/quote:2de4ox7b]
    Whoa! I never denied about dinosaurs, where did you get that from?

    I asked you about the different stories of the creation which tell a differing account of the sequence of creation to find out if there was anything at all that you agreed with as taught by the Catholic Church. I also commend you with citing another author, as your usual approach is to withold that information and attempt to foster “your” articles as entirely your own,
    What parts aren’t, I believed that I said those in those particular spots.
    [quote:2de4ox7b]
    which aside from plagerism makes fact checking a difficult task. Back to the point, as your MO is to attack without giving any reasonable reply, or backing up your outbursts, I felt that I needed to know where you stand. In the past your postings have implied that the Bible was a scientific texts, I think it is important to find out where there are commonalities and where we diverge so we can focus on what separates us, and see if there is a solution (on either side) While I think you are wrong in your attacks on the Catholic Church, and they are based (in what you have copied from others in your prior postings) on the same arguments that I have thought about, prayed for guidance from the Holy Ghost when I was a “Bible Christian” and found to be untrue, dishonest or simply historically inaccurate, I’d rather deal with the errors (from my perspective) you perpetuate, than deal with debates with people who hold shifting or no religious conviction. [/quote:2de4ox7b]
    You have not shown any of my aticles to be false.
    [quote:2de4ox7b]
    I also wanted to see based on previous postings if you believed that there where no dinasours in the Bible that they are a hoax, [/quote:2de4ox7b]
    No hoax – they are real

    [quote:2de4ox7b]if the Bible only accounts for X amount of years since creation than the age of the earth from the point of view of modern science is a lie,[/quote:2de4ox7b]
    approximately 6000 years old – that is it, yes science is unknown or just denying the truth.

    [quote:2de4ox7b] as you have thus far not tipped your hand at any portion of the Bible being allegorical [/quote:2de4ox7b]
    Yes there is.

    [quote:2de4ox7b]I want you to elaborate as much as you can. It may end up that Morris is in complete agreement with what the Catholic Church holds is permissible to believe about the stories of creation. We won’t know for two reasons if you don’t elaborate, first I’ve not read Morris, secondly your dismissive answers in the past have not evoked any desire to learn about the Jesus you seem to preach who appears to be a vengeful evil Savior rather than one who came out of love for His Creatures. [/quote:2de4ox7b]
    WHy do you tell me about the love of Jesus yet you deny that we are cleaned by His Blood shed at Calvary’s cross?

    [quote:2de4ox7b]You have been very open about your Parkinsons in the past, which is why I have been open about the Chemo, I’ve also mentioned it because you have in the past been very impatient when someone has not jumped to it and given a quick answer rather than wait for a thoughtful answer.
    I’m going to take a little rest now, I’ve got more things I have been reading that I will post later, but the medicine for the control of nausea sure wipes you out.[/quote:2de4ox7b]
    I for the most part have been carefully thinking about my answers and I will continue doing so.

    #8338
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:3cr0imvb]Whoa! I never denied about dinosaurs, where did you get that from?
    [/quote:3cr0imvb]

    My mistake. I reviewed the site you posted again. There is another Sola Guy on another board who denies that dinos ever existed, I got you guys confused as you use the same anti-catholic rhetoric and source materials.

    I do think that the whole literal seven 24 hour day and the world is only 6000 years old is bunk, but then again as a Catholic, I am required to believe that God created the Universe and all that by His own power He did so out of nothing, I must admit that He could have done so in seven 24 hour periods of time. Which I do admit freely that He could have done, but I don’t buy that the Bible is a Science textbook and feel the stories of creation are allegorical.

    [quote:3cr0imvb]You have not shown any of my aticles to be false. [/quote:3cr0imvb]

    (Others and ) I have pointed out some areas we find unacceptable and in error, or contradictory to what Christians have beleived from the founding of the Church by Jesus to today. When I am back up to full energy I may tackle some more points. The fact you reject what other people post here does not mean that someone has not replied or shown where we find fault in your articles.

    [quote:3cr0imvb]WHy do you tell me about the love of Jesus yet you deny that we are cleaned by His Blood shed at Calvary’s cross? [/quote:3cr0imvb]

    Enough of false statements from you Ronald. False Witness is contrary to the Bible, Catholic and Protestant. The only person who says that Catholics deny that we are cleansed by the Blood shed by Christ Jesus on Calvary’s cross is you. Catholics do not deny it, where we do differ is how the Graces of the cross are applied to us. For two thousand years Chritians have held what the Apostles taught (based on what they heard from Jesus Himself) that the process of salvation is thus. When an adult person has Faith, which he only has through supernatural grace from God he submits himself to the will of God by accepting baptism. In baptism, the graces won for us by Christ on the Cross are infused into the soul, all past sins, and Original sin are forgiven, we are incorporated into the Body of Christ, and become adopted sons and daughters of God with all the rights and responsibilities inherent in the adoption. All of this is not though our own will or power, nor through the will or power of the minister but through Christ who is the primary person who acts in the Sacraments by the merits of his suffering and death, as well as his resurrection. From the days of the Apostles, infants and children where baptized and it was the parents or sponsors who supplied the intention for the infants and children.

    Having been weakened by original and actual sin, we do even after our conversion fall prey to the tempting of the devil. Our Lord, being true God and true Man aware of our weakness provided for us another means of grace, in penance we find assurance of forgiveness. Just as He comissioned the Apostles to do as He did, and gave them the authority that He as God had, (Whoever’s sins you forgive they are forgiven…) we are given this assurance, and the authority given to priests is not of their own, nor based on their worthiness, but on the redemtive acts on the Cross by Christ Jesus. The Primary priest, our high priest works through his earthly minister the priest who absolves not on his own authority, but as the formula for aboslution says…
    [b:3cr0imvb](1) “May the Almighty God have mercy on you, and forgiving your sins, bring you to life everlasting. Amen.” Then, lifting his right hand towards the penitent, the priest continues: “May the Almighty and Merciful God grant you pardon, absolution, and remission of your sins”.
    (2) “May Our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you, and I, by His authority, absolve you from every bond of excommunication [suspension, in the case of a cleric only] and interdict as far as I can and you may need.”
    (3) “I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.” [/b:3cr0imvb]
    I see in the prayers above that the priest is very clear that God forgives their sins, and that any absolution the priest may grant is based on God’s power, and any authority that the priest claims to forgive sin is based on God’s power and authority not based on the priest or his own personal powers.

    In the Holy Eucharist, we see fulfilled Christ’s promise that He will give us a bread that when we eat it we will never hunger. When we recieve communion on a regular basis with the proper disposition, we are strengthened spiritually, our spiritual hunger is quenched. The Scriptures tell us about our Lord admonishing the jews who asked how hard it was to believe that we must eat His body and drink His blood. Unlike in the parables, when someone would misunderstand, and he would rephrase or explain away the misunderstanding, He did not back away but reaffirmed that if we do not eat His body and drink His blood we would have no life within us. While at Mass the priest is the minister that Christ uses, it is Jesus Himself who is the chief priest and the sacrificial victim at each Mass.
    Most Protestants disavow themselves of the Mass, as they hold a narrow view that the Sacrifice which was complete at Calvary cannot be repeated, and they claim that Catholics are trying to repeat or augment the Cross. That is the last thing that the Mass does, Christ being God can trancend time and space, in His resurrected and glorified body He is not bound by the same limits as we are. Therefore He can be present after the consecration and He can transform the bread and wine into His own body and blood. From the time of the Apostles it has been held that when the minister of Christ (a bishop or priest in the case of the Eucharist) does and says what Jesus did and said at the Last Supper, that Christ Jesus using the man who has been authorized, anointed and approved by Him through His Church changes the bread and wine into His own body and blood. Just as He brought salvation to the world by coming in the flesh, He uses His own creation to come to us, just as in following His instructions to do what He commanded we reach up to Him. As His brothers and sisters by adoption and as the sons and daughters of the Father by adoption we embrace our Father and He us.

    Now these and the other sacraments are empowered by the Sacrifice of Christ to give us grace and to help us “Run the Good Race” as St. Paul tells us. It is true that baptism alone will not save us, we still have to “work out our salvation in fear and trembling” and we cannot do it on our own, but only through the Graces won for us by Christ. The merits and works that we will be judged by (as the Scritures tell us) are not based on our own actions, but on our actions that are preformed out of the love of God, and in union with His grace. When actions or works are done simply to make us feel good, in a manner that is boastful and proud, or devoid of giving honor to God, they are useless. The good done by the Saints would have been useless if it had not been for the fact that they did so by using God’s creation to honor God, rather than simply using it out of any selfish or self seeking. Non-beleivers do good things all the time, but the fact is they get their merit and reward here, as they do not do it for the glory and honor of God. Beleivers sometimes are rewarded here, because their intentions are selfish, but those who advance in the spirtual life, and utilize the graces God freely gives us warrent rewards in heaven because their actions are motivated by the Love of God.

    In summary, but not in the least as the final word on the subject, (as it is very comprehensive and we don’t have the bandwidth nor do I have the time or energy just now.) Any graces we receive through the Sacraments, any graces we derive through our actions are worthless if we do not incorporate into them the merits of Christ on the Cross, because it is He who empowers and sustains the sacraments, not us. Our salvation is based not on just one thing, baptism, or communion alone, but on our complying with the will of God, doing what He instructed us to do, (Be baptized, eat his body drink his blood, be ye perfect as My Father in heaven is perfect….) when we fall into sin recover through the means he gave us, and continue to advance tward Him until our last breath.

    Why is this not all spelled out in the Bible? Jesus never commanded that a word of the New Testament be written, He did command that the Apostles and the seventy go out and preach the good news of salvation, and baptize all nations. He told the Apostles that He was authorizing them to forgive sins. He told them that as He had just done, to take bread and wine and to recount what He did when He said THIS IS MY BODY, and THIS IS MY BLOOD. The fact is that we do have the Bible, and we do consider it to be the word of God. That He did establish a Church against which the gates of hell could not prevail. He did take a man who had denied him, a man named Simon, and change his name to Peter the rock and as in his may parables where he speaks of a steward of the Master who is responsible when the master goes away, or when He spoke of the servants who are given talents, and are asked what they did with them when the Master returns, we are given Simon who was changed by Jesus to Peter and his successors to be the Steward, or Vicar who could rule in the name of the Master until He returned. Someone who’s office we can depend on when questions arise and decisions need to be formally made. Not based on our own merits or authority, but by the authority an merits of Christ.

    The Sacraments rather than being a denyal of what Christ did on the Cross are the means Christ uses to apply those merits to us at times and places far removed from that awsome day on Calvary. They bring Christ and His merits to us individually and as an adopted family. They glorify what happened at Calvary and bring Calvary to us so we can stand mystically at the foot of the cross and look to Jesus and Say, “My Lord and My God, I believe, help my unbelief.”

    #8346
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    About your article Mr. LARoberts:
    [quote:1dtkbt3v]
    My mistake. I reviewed the site you posted again. There is another Sola Guy on another board who denies that dinos ever existed, I got you guys confused as you use the same anti-catholic rhetoric and source materials. [/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    I’d like to me him.

    [quote:1dtkbt3v]I do think that the whole literal seven 24 hour day and the world is only 6000 years old is bunk, but then again as a Catholic, I am required to believe that God created the Universe and all that by His own power He did so out of nothing, I must admit that He could have done so in seven 24 hour periods of time. Which I do admit freely that He could have done, but I don’t buy that the Bible is a Science textbook and feel the stories of creation are allegorical. [/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    In Genesis 1 it repeatedly says comments like “There was morning and evening the first day.” Now why is it that you think of that as allegorical, but parts of John 6 you take as literal yet it has comments like whoever eats of me will never die (but check out your nearest funeral home, they’re still busy) or will never hunger, yet everyday we do?

    [quote:1dtkbt3v]Quote:
    You have not shown any of my aticles to be false.

    (Others and ) I have pointed out some areas we find unacceptable and in error, or contradictory to what Christians have beleived from the founding of the Church by Jesus to today.[/quote:1dtkbt3v]

    You mean it only contradicts what Catholics believe, for you seem to think to much about Matthew 16:18 as if Jesus meant Catholicism. Let me ask then – are only Catholics Going to Heaven? (Matthew 7:13,14 says only one way)
    [quote:1dtkbt3v]
    When I am back up to full energy I may tackle some more points. The fact you reject what other people post here does not mean that someone has not replied or shown where we find fault in your articles. [/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    I’m sorry but I don’t recall those spots – like where and when?

    [quote:1dtkbt3v]Quote:
    WHy do you tell me about the love of Jesus yet you deny that we are cleaned by His Blood shed at Calvary’s cross?

    Enough of false statements from you Ronald. False Witness is contrary to the Bible, Catholic and Protestant.[/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    You think that I’m lying? Let’s continue below, I’ll elaborate exactly

    [quote:1dtkbt3v] The only person who says that Catholics deny that we are cleansed by the Blood shed by Christ Jesus on Calvary’s cross is you.[/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    Okay, then do you deny Purgatory, works and sacramental cleansing? To believe in those things shows that you deny the cleansing of His blood – It can’t be both

    [quote:1dtkbt3v] Catholics do not deny it, where we do differ is how the Graces of the cross are applied to us.[/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    Yes and thus you differ on how you figure someone goes to Heaven. Have you ever looked up in a dictionary what the word grace means?

    [quote:1dtkbt3v] For two thousand years Chritians have held what the Apostles taught (based on what they heard from Jesus Himself) that the process of salvation is thus.[/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    No sir! This is only what you claim it to be, but it is not the way Jesus declared!

    [quote:1dtkbt3v] When an adult person has Faith, which he only has through supernatural grace from God he submits himself to the will of God by accepting baptism. In baptism, the graces won for us by Christ on the Cross are infused into the soul, all past sins, and Original sin are forgiven, we are incorporated into the Body of Christ, and become adopted sons and daughters of God with all the rights and responsibilities inherent in the adoption.[/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    So do we ignore the verses such as Titus 3:5 – not by the righteous deeds that we have done, or Ephesians 2:8+9 – saved by grace not works less you can boast? And do we throw out John 2:16 and John 3:36 because you never mentioned anything about “whosoever believes?” And in an infants case, they don’t believe anything yet, but you claim Baptism gets one saved!

    [quote:1dtkbt3v] All of this is not though our own will or power, nor through the will or power of the minister but through Christ who is the primary person who acts in the Sacraments by the merits of his suffering and death, as well as his resurrection. [/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    This is why I’ll never return to your church – Did you look at the many verses on my home page that tell us by His blood we are bough ten, cleansed, redeemed etc starting with Isaiah 53:5 – by His stripes we are healed? There is nothing said about sacraments being the way Christ merits our salvation to us. That is a false gospel my friend.

    [quote:1dtkbt3v]From the days of the Apostles, infants and children where baptized and it was the parents or sponsors who supplied the intention for the infants and children. [/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    Are we to make a change in John 3:16 to have it say “whosoever has their paren’ts permission?

    [quote:1dtkbt3v]Having been weakened by original and actual sin, we do even after our conversion fall prey to the tempting of the devil. Our Lord, being true God and true Man aware of our weakness provided for us another means of grace, in penance we find assurance of forgiveness. [/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    This also has been twisted for only God can forgive sins

    [quote:1dtkbt3v]Just as He comissioned the Apostles to do as He did, and gave them the authority that He as God had, (Whoever’s sins you forgive they are forgiven…) we are given this assurance, and the authority given to priests is not of their own, nor based on their worthiness, but on the redemtive acts on the Cross by Christ Jesus. The Primary priest, our high priest works through his earthly minister the priest who absolves not on his own authority, but as the formula for aboslution says… [/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    That is an out-right lie Mr. LARoberts, In fact Jesus actually did away with the sacrificial priests in Hebrews 7

    [quote:1dtkbt3v](1) “May the Almighty God have mercy on you, and forgiving your sins, bring you to life everlasting. Amen.” Then, lifting his right hand towards the penitent, the priest continues: “May the Almighty and Merciful God grant you pardon, absolution, and remission of your sins”.
    (2) “May Our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you, and I, by His authority, absolve you from every bond of excommunication [suspension, in the case of a cleric only] and interdict as far as I can and you may need.”
    (3) “I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.”
    I see in the prayers above that the priest is very clear that God forgives their sins, and that any absolution the priest may grant is based on God’s power, and any authority that the priest claims to forgive sin is based on God’s power and authority not based on the priest or his own personal powers. [/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    Our sins are forgiven when we trust in Christ’s shed blood, not some confession of sins
    Again you fail to account for John 3:16 and 3:36

    [quote:1dtkbt3v]In the Holy Eucharist, we see fulfilled Christ’s promise that He will give us a bread that when we eat it we will never hunger. When we recieve communion on a regular basis with the proper disposition, we are strengthened spiritually, our spiritual hunger is quenched. The Scriptures tell us about our Lord admonishing the jews who asked how hard it was to believe that we must eat His body and drink His blood. Unlike in the parables, when someone would misunderstand, and he would rephrase or explain away the misunderstanding, He did not back away but reaffirmed that if we do not eat His body and drink His blood we would have no life within us. While at Mass the priest is the minister that Christ uses, it is Jesus Himself who is the chief priest and the sacrificial victim at each Mass. [/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    Not so Mr. LARoberts, This is as your church professes, but it doesn’t happen in that way for Jesus cannot go against His own word as I’ve clearly shown in my article on this topic.

    [quote:1dtkbt3v]Most Protestants disavow themselves of the Mass, as they hold a narrow view that the Sacrifice which was complete at Calvary cannot be repeated, and they claim that Catholics are trying to repeat or augment the Cross.[/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    Perhaps we do hold a narrow view, but just as Matthew 7:13 + 14 tell us, Narrow is the view and few will find the path to Heaven.

    [quote:1dtkbt3v] That is the last thing that the Mass does, Christ being God can trancend time and space, in His resurrected and glorified body He is not bound by the same limits as we are. [/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    He does not, however, do as you are suggesting as I explain in my third article
    [quote:1dtkbt3v]Therefore He can be present after the consecration and He can transform the bread and wine into His own body and blood. From the time of the Apostles it has been held that when the minister of Christ (a bishop or priest in the case of the Eucharist) does and says what Jesus did and said at the Last Supper, that Christ Jesus using the man who has been authorized, anointed and approved by Him through His Church changes the bread and wine into His own body and blood.[/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    If this wasn’t so serious, I’d ask you if you wanted some ocean front property in Arizona after all, you swallowed that false premise

    [quote:1dtkbt3v] Just as He brought salvation to the world by coming in the flesh, He uses His own creation to come to us, just as in following His instructions to do what He commanded we reach up to Him. As His brothers and sisters by adoption and as the sons and daughters of the Father by adoption we embrace our Father and He us. [/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    Sorry but you aren’t a son until you believe as He wishes.

    [quote:1dtkbt3v]Now these and the other sacraments are empowered by the Sacrifice of Christ to give us grace and to help us “Run the Good Race” as St. Paul tells us.[/quote:1dtkbt3v]
    Nope, Jesus died to save us, He didn’t need sacraments to do that (And you said “no more lies?) The rest of your posting is filled with YOUR false beliefs not the Biblical beliefs as Christ intended

    #8347
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Ronnie boy, just when it looked like you where going to engage in civil debate, you turn on the Dr. Jeckle mode again, ignore rational and civil thought returning to the taskmasters that you replace Chrisitanity with to do their bidding and try to destroy the Church of Christ.

    [quote:3lch775y]John 6 you take as literal yet it has comments like whoever eats of me will never die (but check out your nearest funeral home, they’re still busy) or will never hunger, yet everyday we do? [/quote:3lch775y]

    Once again you put strange spins of both the Bible, and Catholic dogma.
    If you pick up a greek/english commentary and do some research into what the Catholic doctrine is, you will find that these are the spiritual effects of worthy reception of the Sacrament. Which brings up another of the flaws of the Sola camp. On the Sola side one is not bound to what the Apostles and their sucessors taught. Nor is one bound to the dogmas that for the past 2000 years have remained unchanged, rather you are free to invent new and random doctrines and teachings by re-interpreting the Sacred Scriptures to meet the ithcing ears of yourself and your hearers.

    One out that the person who denied dinosours as a hoax tried was by claiming that the Bible was without error only in the original edition. Both begging the questions of what constitutes the original edition, and what safeguarded their edition or if it has errors?

    [quote:3lch775y]This also has been twisted for only God can forgive sins [/quote:3lch775y]

    Then Jesus really screwed up according to you when he told the Apostles “whosoevers sins you forgive…” or is there something written in invisible ink that says, “Mileage may vary, not applicable beyond the split second Jesus said this” or something else that we are missing? Did He say it or not? If He said it did he mean it?

    [quote:3lch775y]Our sins are forgiven when we trust in Christ’s shed blood, not some confession of sins
    Again you fail to account for John 3:16 and 3:36 [/quote:3lch775y]

    So say you. Stand back, see the Bible as the entire story of redemption and salvation, not in the middle of the forest picking out individual trees, out of context Ronnie. Once again, none of what the Church teaches has any validity if you discount the passion. Without Calvary the merits that Christ distributes to us by His sacraments are empowered by Him to do so. Nope this next anology is not from the Bible, but as you refuse other explanations we will try and make it as simple as possible for you….

    Calvary, and Christ’s atonement there. Happened in time, effects are eternal, and can be applied by Him without the constraint of time. Let’s look at those merits for the time being as an inexaustible bank account.

    Sacraments, works done with faith in Christ, and for the Glory of God rather than our own glory, everything Christains have done and believed until Protestants came about in the 16th century, access to the funds deposited by Christ, and availible to us when we use the PIN Number, and ATM card which are the Sacraments that Christ insituted and empowered. All done by the Grace of God, through the merits of the Cross. Not just because we are present at the rite.

    [quote:3lch775y]You mean it only contradicts what Catholics believe, for you seem to think to much about Matthew 16:18 as if Jesus meant Catholicism. Let me ask then – are only Catholics Going to Heaven? (Matthew 7:13,14 says only one way)[/quote:3lch775y]

    As the Catholic Church, (even against your protests and hiding your head in the sand when history is mentioned) is the only Church that can trace itself to the Apostles, yes. As far as being the only one who holds many of the invented positions from the 16th Century Reformers that you try and blindside people with, there are the Orthodox, some Lutherans and some Anglicans who hold many of the same positions, as they look at the historical facts that you deny.

    [quote:3lch775y]I’m sorry but I don’t recall those spots – like where and when?[/quote:3lch775y]

    You are capable of looking over the posts. You will find your usual non-reply of “You are wrong, I’ll have to teach you” or “You say so” etc etc etc.

    [quote:3lch775y]Okay, then do you deny Purgatory, works and sacramental cleansing? To believe in those things shows that you deny the cleansing of His blood – It can’t be both[/quote:3lch775y]

    Your ignorance is showing… They all fit into God’s plan as they would be worthless had Christ not suffered and died on the cross, risen from the dead and ascended into heaven. They are means by which he applys the merits of the cross, not replacements for the merits of the cross. As for dictionaries, since I don’t want to bother with your silliness. I own several dictionaries, I also have compaired them some like Websters, and The Encyclopedia Britannica have a very Anti-Catholic pro-Protestant slant to them, and would side with what you spew, the fact is that they are not comprehensive, (Or are you compairing a dictionary with the Bible, and making it as infallible as the word of God?) You may go ahead and call it biased, you may want to look up grace as defined from a Catholic source, or even an eastern Orthodox source, as they remain unchanged from the days of the Apostles, and not invented by men who rejected what had been handed down from the Apostles in the 16th century.

    [quote:3lch775y]Nope, Jesus died to save us, He didn’t need sacraments to do that (And you said “no more lies?) The rest of your posting is filled with YOUR false beliefs not the Biblical beliefs as Christ intended[/quote:3lch775y]

    I’ll stick with what Jesus taught and has been continually taught upto the Protestant Revolt, and continues to be taught by His Church. I’d rather live in the saftey of the bosom of Christ, than in the contradictions of Protestantism. I’ve been to death of the soul preached by the Protestant Babel, I’ve seen the poor scholarship you type out, I’ve seen the articles that you have spent time researching from other people’s writings, and find them to be contradictory to the Bible and God’s plan of salvation. I also see you slipping back into your same habits of closing yourself off to Christ and rational thought. So I’ll add another decade for you tonight, our Lady can discuss your soul with her Son, I’m sure they have more tollerance for silly rejection of the truth than I do.

    #8364
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    So sad to see what you can’t Mr. LARoberts, but then again that is your choice, isn’t it!

    Such as:
    [quote:2af6ujzz]Ronnie boy, just when it looked like you where going to engage in civil debate, you turn on the Dr. Jeckle mode again, ignore rational and civil thought returning to the taskmasters that you replace Chrisitanity with to do their bidding and try to destroy the Church of Christ. [/quote:2af6ujzz]
    It appears that you aren’t very good at getting [u:2af6ujzz][b:2af6ujzz]any[/b:2af6ujzz][/u:2af6ujzz] of the facts straight (just watch below)

    [quote:2af6ujzz]. On the Sola side one is not bound to what the Apostles and their sucessors taught. Nor is one bound to the dogmas that for the past 2000 years have remained unchanged, rather you are free to invent new and random doctrines and teachings by re-interpreting the Sacred Scriptures to meet the ithcing ears of yourself and your hearers. [/quote:2af6ujzz]
    you totally have gotten this backwards – are you in your catechism, or what? Certainly not using the Bible!

    [quote:2af6ujzz] Both begging the questions of what constitutes the original edition, and what safeguarded their edition or if it has errors? [/quote:2af6ujzz]
    Use yours if you want I don’t care! If you’d spend half the time in it instead of trying to know who wrote it, maybe you’d know it better. (God is responsible for it)

    [quote:2af6ujzz]Then Jesus really screwed up according to you when he told the Apostles “whosoevers sins you forgive…” or is there something written in invisible ink that says, “Mileage may vary, not applicable beyond the split second Jesus said this” or something else that we are missing? Did He say it or not? If He said it did he mean it? [/quote:2af6ujzz]
    YEs you are missing something. The facts are that because He spent 3 years teaching them and they know the gospel, they can tell someone if their sins are fogiven or not based upon that individual’s beliefs – it doesn’t say “I give you the power to forgive sins” does it!!!

    [quote:2af6ujzz]Once again, none of what the Church teaches has any validity if you discount the passion. Without Calvary the merits that Christ distributes to us by His sacraments are empowered by Him to do so. [/quote:2af6ujzz]
    This is my point exactly – where do you get this garbage from???

    [quote:2af6ujzz]Calvary, and Christ’s atonement there. Happened in time, effects are eternal, and can be applied by Him without the constraint of time. Let’s look at those merits for the time being as an inexaustible bank account.

    Sacraments, works done with faith in Christ, and for the Glory of God rather than our own glory, everything Christains have done and believed[/quote:2af6ujzz]
    Or this bull?

    [quote:2af6ujzz]which are the Sacraments that Christ insituted and empowered. All done by the Grace of God, through the merits of the Cross[/quote:2af6ujzz]

    Have you ever read Isaiah 53? How about verse 5? Try itmaybe then you will learn the difference?

    [quote:2af6ujzz] they look at the historical facts that you deny. [/quote:2af6ujzz]
    strange how you will trust sombody’s history book instead of God’s word

    [quote:2af6ujzz]They are means by which he applys the merits of the cross, not replacements for the merits of the cross[/quote:2af6ujzz]
    More garbage Mr LARoberts, we don’t want this garbage as it isn’t Biblical but rather heresy!

    [quote:2af6ujzz]I’ll stick with what Jesus taught and has been continually taught upto the Protestant Revolt, and continues to be taught by His Church[/quote:2af6ujzz]
    stick to it? You deny it just like you praying to Mary when salvation is by
    no other name then Jesus, yet you go to Mary????

    Yet you think I’m the confused one???? Yea right!!!!!!!!

    #8367
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Ron, you’ve either gone off your meds, or you are having another episode of the Sola Heebey Geebies. Either way you just confound any reasonable thought. Your twisting and contorting, and inability to come close anything close to a civil or rational reply makes me just shake my head, and turn your case over to the only ones who can help in this case, God, our Lady, and the Saints. Your predictable responses will be ignored as the rantings of a soul in crisis who is unwilling to look at the evidence, as you put yourself in the position of judge, jury and wish to execute anything that does not agree with the proof text brainwashing that ignores the texts of the Bible, (let alone historical truths about what Christians believed for 1500 years before men rebelled against Christ and His Church). For a split second it looked like you where willing to have an honest debate, but it is clear that those lucid moments are rare in your case.

    Pre-empting your usual comments, I will say, No Ronnie boy, you are not just thinking of our souls, or trying to share the message of Christ here or elsewhere. It is clear to anyone who reviews your pathetic attacks that you have two problems, the first is you have a bone to pick with the Catholic Church, it has caused such a deep seated problem that you are easily manipulated by other professional anti-Catholics and usurp their writtings as your own, incorporating their work into yours (without crediting your faulty sources). This is either because you know they are poor sources in the first place, or as evident by your tantrums here, you simply wish to be the only one who knows anything. I’m truly sorry that you where not given the attention you crave when you where younger, and that nobody listens to you now. Insulting comments, and antisocial behavior however is not the way to accomplish your goals. Longterm therapy may help. Prayer, will help. Your not being called on your tirades will not help. Learning to be civil in order to give your arguments a little credibility, along with honest research and sources will. By your frequent outbursts and contradicitons, you only exibit a pathetic clinical picture. Be assured that there are many here, (and I’m sure elsewhere) who have lifted their voices in prayer, and asked the Angels and Saints to join with them to ask God that you receive the peace that this world cannot grant, but that only He can. I’ll also pray that I can resist responding to your wild accusations, answered time and time again, and your insults and taunts directed at believers of Christ’s Church, Militant, Suffering and Triumphant, and by doing so, as St. Paul when still Saul, attacking Christ Jesus Himself.

    Read: Hahn, Armstrong, Madrid, (Ronald) Knox, (Msgr) Hughes and Keating and others (before you discount and attack them) who used to believe in false self made religions as you do, and reply to them, I’m not going to waste time with someone like yourself who is so invested in being correct that he ignores what the scriptures really say in preference to his own fictional theology. I’ll do as I have promised, and reply to your poorly researched and mean spiritied attacks with prayers for the conversion of your soul to the Historical Jesus, rather than the creation of 16th Century Protestant Revolutionaries.

    #8384
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hello again Mr. LARoberts,

    How one sided can you get (or should I say blind sighted?) You never stick to the truth and you ask me to be civil, but then you write this? –
    [quote:67nk1osc]
    Ron, you’ve either gone off your meds, or you are having another episode of the Sola Heebey Geebies. Either way you just confound any reasonable thought. Your twisting and contorting, and inability to come close anything close to a civil or rational reply makes me just shake my head, and turn your case over to the only ones who can help in this case, God, our Lady, and the Saints.[/quote:67nk1osc]
    What is it about you but your pride not understanding any civil attempts to show you your errors?
    [quote:67nk1osc]
    Your predictable responses will be ignored as the rantings of a soul in crisis who is unwilling to look at the evidence, as you put yourself in the position of judge, jury and wish to execute anything that does not agree with the proof text brainwashing that ignores the texts of the Bible, (let alone historical truths about what Christians believed for 1500 years before men rebelled against Christ and His Church). [/quote:67nk1osc]
    You say that about my thinking yet pray to Mary? Believe in a purging by purgatory or sacramental means rather then what Isaiah 53:5 says – BY His stripes you are healed, believe in human traditions because men say
    it’s historical? And then you tell me I took to much Meds? I don’t think so
    Mr.LARoberts.

    [quote:67nk1osc]For a split second it looked like you where willing to have an honest debate, but it is clear that those lucid moments are rare in your case. [/quote:67nk1osc]
    If I said this to you, then I would be a judge etc etc, I’m not the deceived one here. And it seems that whenever I get something that you cannot explain, you go off on this kind of tangent of accusations. Why is that?

    [quote:67nk1osc]Pre-empting your usual comments, I will say, No Ronnie boy, you are not just thinking of our souls, or trying to share the message of Christ here or elsewhere. It is clear to anyone who reviews your pathetic attacks that you have two problems, the first is you have a bone to pick with the Catholic Church, it has caused such a deep seated problem that you are easily manipulated by other professional anti-Catholics and usurp their writtings as your own, incorporating their work into yours (without crediting your faulty sources). This is either because you know they are poor sources in the first place, or as evident by your tantrums here, you simply wish to be the only one who knows anything.[/quote:67nk1osc]
    My problem is trying to get you to see the obvious deceptions of your faith.

    [quote:67nk1osc] I’m truly sorry that you where not given the attention you crave when you where younger, and that nobody listens to you now. Insulting comments, and antisocial behavior however is not the way to accomplish your goals. Longterm therapy may help. Prayer, will help. Your not being called on your tirades will not help. Learning to be civil in order to give your arguments a little credibility, along with honest research and sources will. By your frequent outbursts and contradicitons, you only exibit a pathetic clinical picture. Be assured that there are many here, (and I’m sure elsewhere) who have lifted their voices in prayer, and asked the Angels and Saints to join with them to ask God that you receive the peace that this world cannot grant, but that only He can. [/quote:67nk1osc]
    I have been civil – look at Matthew 23 – Jesus told those of authority much worst then anything I’ve said to you. Would you say “He is uncivil” as well?

    [quote:67nk1osc]I’ll also pray that I can resist responding to your wild accusations, answered time and time again, and your insults and taunts directed at believers of Christ’s Church, Militant, Suffering and Triumphant, and by doing so, as St. Paul when still Saul, attacking Christ Jesus Himself. [/quote:67nk1osc]
    If this is your idea of an answer, well now I’m understanding why you never give me direct answers to my other postings.

    [quote:67nk1osc]Read: Hahn, Armstrong, Madrid, (Ronald) Knox, (Msgr) Hughes and Keating and others (before you discount and attack them) who used to believe in false self made religions as you do, and reply to them, I’m not going to waste time with someone like yourself who is so invested in being correct that he ignores what the scriptures really say in preference to his own fictional theology.[/quote:67nk1osc]
    How about you reading the Bible without your catechism to misguide you?
    Or go to those others like Mike Gendron, Richard Bennet (a former priest)
    James MaCarthy, or William Webster and many others that were raised as you and I was, but they trust what the Word of God says not what your church claims it says?

    [quote:67nk1osc] I’ll do as I have promised, and reply to your poorly researched and mean spiritied attacks with prayers for the conversion of your soul to the Historical Jesus, rather than the creation of 16th Century Protestant Revolutionaries.[/quote:67nk1osc]_________________
    For all of the Greek and Hebrew that you claim to “know” you sure have trouble understanding simple english – I do KNOW Jesus and He isn’t the builder of a sacrimental system, or many of the other “traditions” as your church claims – He died fo save me and anyone else that Trusts in the power of His shed blood

    #8390
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:3u5td4ps]How about you reading the Bible without your catechism to misguide you?
    Or go to those others like Mike Gendron, Richard Bennet (a former priest)
    James MaCarthy, or William Webster and many others that were raised as you and I was, but they trust what the Word of God says not what your church claims it says? [/quote:3u5td4ps]

    I’ve read what everyone here, except Richard Bennet, (the only one of the group that you parallel with the Bible I have not heard of) I’ve even been to a couple of Mike Gendron’s seminars, and found none of them to give an honest portrail of the Catholic Church. I can see why you would like to believe in their “testimonies” and fabrications though.

    As for having been raised as “You and I” where, don’t let your congnitive abilities or disabilities lie to you, review what you seem to be unable to remember, or choose to ignore. I was not raised a Catholic, but a Sephardim, and I was fooled by the Sola crowd for several years, and came to the Authentic Christ, who founded the Catholic Church (circa 33AD) when I did what men like those you mentioned did not expect someone to do. I checked their facts, and found them to be a combination of outright lies, and misrepresentations by doing to the teachings of the Catholic Church what they do to the Catholic Document, (The Bible) quoting out of any historical or sensible context. I came to the conclusion after much prayer, that I could not live a life of error, and entered the Catholic Church.

    I’m worried about your cognitive functioning, combined with your anti-social behavior. Please (and I ask you this in Christian Charity) have yourself checked out the next time you visit your neruologist. Your rantings are not only becoming more illogical, but your ability to address the basic matters in the discussion, and remain on topic are becoming worse. I point this out, because if what I have noticed is real, then you need to have it addressed before it progresses. Hopefully it is just your frustration with people not seeing you as a credible debator, and with your poor fact checking, but I would not want such a serious medical issue to go unchecked.

    #8391
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Mr. LARoberts

    [quote:fc9f94qq]I’ve read what everyone here, except Richard Bennet, (the only one of the group that you parallel with the Bible I have not heard of) I’ve even been to a couple of Mike Gendron’s seminars, and found none of them to give an honest portrail of the Catholic Church. [/quote:fc9f94qq]

    Well then Mr. Sephardim, Let me who was raised a catholic give you with your converted method of interpretation inform you of a few things;
    1 Richard Bennet’s web page (with history too)
    http://www.bereanbeacon.org/
    2 you make a terrible couselor (in case no one ever told you)
    3 for all of your postings you cannot tell me how getting washed by Jesus blood equals believing in purgatory, sacrementalism, the salvation by literal eating of your Host, need for a sacrimental priest, need for praying to anyone but God/Jesus, or believing not in Sola Scriptura. Now you and everyone else and their brother can say what you want about my views and/or medication if you want, but these things that I have listed are not taught correctly by the Roman Catholic Church and this I KNOW for a fact!
    Ron K

    #8393
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:22pi7ki5]you make a terrible couselor (in case no one ever told you) [/quote:22pi7ki5]

    I’m not attempting to be a substitute for a therapist, counselor, or Doctor here. It is however evident that anyone who attempts to show a little humanity, Christian Charity and concern for what appears to be a problem that is becoming worse with you, and gets ever increasing venom filled replies like your own can’t be far off track.

    While I’m looking over the webpage you think may cinch it, (although now that you’ve cut and pasted the Breanbeacon web URL, I do remember him, and found him to be most unreliable.) None the less in the intrest of seeking after the truth, while I’m reviewing him, take an (honest if possible) look at some of what Kimberly Hahn had to go through to come out of the wasteland and into the Body of Christ….

    [url:22pi7ki5]http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/BHBch7.html[/url:22pi7ki5]

    #8395
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    But have you noticed one of the flaws? When they ask

    [quote:anqu268m]Was your mother the mother of your human nature? No, she was the mother of you.[/quote:anqu268m]

    I wasn’t around until my mother bore me, whereas Jesus/God was, is and always was long before any of us. The fact that Mary was Jesus Humanly mother had no special case for your arguments as Jesus clearly explained this in Luke 11:27,28

    (and I don’t pray to her or my mother but to God alone)

    #8397

    /side note:

    Technically, Ron, you existed when your mother was born. A human female is born with all her eggs. You were there.

    #8398
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:sehhptz9]Technically, Ron, you existed when your mother was born. A human female is born with all her eggs. You were there.[/quote:sehhptz9]

    True half our genetics come from our Mother and that egg is with her from birth, (although immature until released and fertilzed) But the maternity of our Lord, and in the same vein all of us has been known by God from all eternity. God has for all eternity known us, before our own existence into the world, before our souls where created, He knew we would exist, and what choices we would make. He knew in eternity that Mary would give her fiat, and that she would be the chosen vessle through which the salvation of the world would come. She is not that salvation, but plays a key role in it, and acts as a primary example to us of humility and obedience to God, and the rewards we will have for that obedience to His will and law. God’s foreknowledge of us does not as the Calvanists claim deny our free will, but that is another subject for Ronald to misinstruct us on.

    We will keep you fit as a fiddle Ronnie, you just keep jumping to incorrect and poorly thought out conclusions, wallow in what your Protestant task masters have fed you, and you will never need a gym membership.

    #8401
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    What is your point Jon? That changes nothing and neither does anything that LARRoberts added. However if Mary is the mother of God: then would you say that she is the answer to Isaiah 40:12,13,14 which asks:
    [color=red:16xmhulj] 12 Who has measured the waters[c] in the hollow of His hand,
    Measured heaven with a span
    And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure?
    Weighed the mountains in scales
    And the hills in a balance?
    13 Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD,
    Or as His counselor has taught Him?
    14 With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him,
    And taught Him in the path of justice?
    Who taught Him knowledge,
    And showed Him the way of understanding? [/color:16xmhulj]?

    I don’t think so!

    #8403

    [quote:1dz6vvkn]What is your point Jon?[/quote:1dz6vvkn]
    Well, you said you weren’t around until your mother bore you, but I just wanted to get the facts right. It was really tangent, that’s all.

    #8405
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:c9tkl4a1]What is your point Jon? That changes nothing and neither does anything that LARRoberts added. However if Mary is the mother of God: then would you say that she is the answer to Isaiah 40:12,13,14 which asks: [/quote:c9tkl4a1]

    You continue to amuse me with your contortions and misapplications of Scripture. One would be able to apply them to the doctrines you say the Catholic Church teaches, the big problems is you continue to misrepresent what the Church teaches. A moment or two of honesty on your side could settle the whole matter. The problem is you prefer to teach what your anti-catholic sources define the Catholic Church as teaching, and quote one aspect of any given Catholic teaching out of context thereby distorting it’s meaning. Just as Protestants have distorted the Bible to form the four thousand or so sects that all disagree with each other, or worse go on to produce the People’s Temple, and Heaven’s Gate etc. Either way they end up corrupting the souls of many.

    #8407
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    And you amaze me with your many postings such as these where you say nothing but
    [quote:pl3eooz0]You continue to amuse me with your contortions and misapplications of Scripture.[/quote:pl3eooz0]

    [quote:pl3eooz0]you continue to misrepresent what the Church teaches.[/quote:pl3eooz0]

    [quote:pl3eooz0] A moment or two of honesty on your side could settle the whole matter.[/quote:pl3eooz0]

    [quote:pl3eooz0] The problem is you prefer to teach what your anti-catholic sources define the Catholic Church as teaching, and quote one aspect of any given Catholic teaching out of context thereby distorting it’s meaning.[/quote:pl3eooz0]

    [quote:pl3eooz0] Just as Protestants have distorted the Bible to form the four thousand or so sects that all disagree with each other, or worse go on to produce the People’s Temple, and Heaven’s Gate etc. Either way they end up corrupting the souls of many. [/quote:pl3eooz0]

    I hope others see that you are the one posting personal attacks without any evidence except for an occasional Quote from some PERSON that you claim to be a “church father”

    Which I have said means little in light of Galatians 1:6-9
    I want Biblical evidence from you or don’t bother with your rhetoric, okay chum?

    #8409
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Getting a little hot under the collar when history and the Bible both prove you wrong? Look at the other postings in which others and I have used Biblical evidence you have simply disregarded disregarded it and moved on to other topics. All I’m asking is for you to be honest when you defame Christ and His Church with what the tell us that the Church teaches, is that too much to ask for?

    #8411
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:1kg28sxv]Getting a little hot under the collar when history and the Bible both prove you wrong?[/quote:1kg28sxv]
    No not really just making it clear how ugly your posts can get when all you do is put that stuff on the post instead of the truth.

    [quote:1kg28sxv] Look at the other postings in which others and I have used Biblical evidence you have simply disregarded disregarded it and moved on to other topics.[/quote:1kg28sxv]
    I’ve been looking – mostly it is nothing more then you claiming I’m wrong and you are right with nothing for evidence except your post to attempt to prove to pray to others which I answered.

    [quote:1kg28sxv] All I’m asking is for you to be honest when you defame Christ and His Church with what the tell us that the Church teaches, is that too much to ask for?[/quote:1kg28sxv]
    No but actually you want more, such as believing those things that are against God, which I cannot do

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