Other views on salvation

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  • #5723
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Ron,
    Understand that Justification and Sanctification are seen by Catholics as complementary ways of talking about the same thing. And not just any sin can get you to be “re-justified” but by committing a grave/mortal sin can turn you away from God. For catholics it’s about being IN GRACE or NOT IN GRACE. If you are weak and constantly commit mortal sins then this may be like a rollercoster for you. Coming in and out of Grace. We just feel thankful that at least now we are able to please God ([color=red:24o4a6ai]when you are in Grace[/color:24o4a6ai]) because of what was done at Calvary for us. Does that help?

    ~Victor

    #5724
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Victor
    Two points
    1- if no sin enters Heaven (Rev -21:27) And James tells us if we commit one sin, you are guilty of all sin (James 2:10+11) where do you think the idea of a venial sin comes from? (If you answer 1 John 5 – He is referring to our physical death there as Paul mentions when he wrote –
    1 Cor 11:30 “For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.”)

    2- am I right in what I said in my previous e-mail about Justification?

    #5725
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:2q4q9mv0]Victor
    Two points
    1- if no sin enters Heaven (Rev -21:27) And James tells us if we commit one sin, you are guilty of all sin (James 2:10+11) where do you think the idea of a venial sin comes from? (If you answer 1 John 5 – He is referring to our physical death there as Paul mentions when he wrote –
    1 Cor 11:30 “For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.”)

    2- am I right in what I said in my previous e-mail about Justification?[/quote:2q4q9mv0]

    Ron, you are in no position to tell me what 1 John 5 is referring to. Especially after your repeated misinterpretations.

    [b:2q4q9mv0]1 John 5:16-17[/b:2q4q9mv0]
    [color=blue:2q4q9mv0]16[/color:2q4q9mv0] If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. [color=blue:2q4q9mv0]17[/color:2q4q9mv0] All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

    If you can’t see that this verse is making the distinction of 2 different types of sin then I don’t know what to tell you but that you must have some real thick protestant glasses that don’t permit you to see it.

    You see Ron, we can’t even get passed little things like this because if you see that I am right, you feel like your losing the battle and going away from Christ in some way. Ever occur to you that you may be getting closer to Christ? <img loading=” title=”Wink” />

    #5726
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:2p83rmqx]
    Ron, you are in no position to tell me what 1 John 5 is referring to. Especially after your repeated misinterpretations. [/quote:2p83rmqx]

    [color=darkred:2p83rmqx]With all do respect, Victor, You are just giving me your Catholic opinion which sets up “what do I do now?” types of contraditions. You say in your post about 2 different types of sins – then what do we do with Rev. 21:27 if I am to believe in what your interpretation claims? and what about James 2:10,11? At least my way the verses don’t fight each other. I showed you the difference, some sins God simply ends a persons physical lifeas in Ananias and his wife in Acts 5, so I guess my glasses are just fine thank you.[/color:2p83rmqx]
    [quote:2p83rmqx]1 John 5:16-17
    16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

    If you can’t see that this verse is making the distinction of 2 different types of sin then I don’t know what to tell you but that you must have some real thick protestant glasses that don’t permit you to see it.

    You see Ron, we can’t even get passed little things like this because if you see that I am right, you feel like your losing the battle and going away from Christ in some way. Ever occur to you that you may be getting closer to Christ? [/quote:2p83rmqx]
    [i:2p83rmqx][color=red:2p83rmqx][b:2p83rmqx]Why do you avoid answering my question about justification?[/b:2p83rmqx][/color:2p83rmqx][/i:2p83rmqx]

    #5727
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:2rp29guu]With all do respect, Victor, You are just giving me your Catholic opinion which sets up “what do I do now?” types of contraditions. [/quote:2rp29guu]

    I don’t know what you mean by this. This turns into a finger pointing match.

    [quote:2rp29guu]You say in your post about 2 different types of sins – then what do we do with Rev. 21:27 if I am to believe in what your interpretation claims?[/quote:2rp29guu]

    Easy, we have purgatory remember? <img loading=” title=”Wink” /> You get cleansed in Purgatory and the process of continues so you can be made clean and enter heaven.

    [quote:2rp29guu]and what about James 2:10,11?[/quote:2rp29guu]

    No contradiction here. Where does it say that all the sins are the same?

    [quote:2rp29guu]At least my way the verses don’t fight each other. [/quote:2rp29guu]

    So you say,

    [quote:2rp29guu]I showed you the difference, some sins God simply ends a persons physical lifeas in Ananias and his wife in Acts 5, so I guess my glasses are just fine thank you.[/quote:2rp29guu]

    No where in the verse is it talking about physical death????

    [quote:2rp29guu]Why do you avoid answering my question about justification?[/quote:2rp29guu]

    My goodness Ron, are you serious? Scroll up and read. If not, rephrase your question CLEARLY. This seems to be a difficult task for you.

    ~Victor

    #5728

    [quote:vd52d6re]Okay Jon

    okay so you are going to tell me it’s through sacraments and the mass. Right? As in [b:vd52d6re]”Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith”[/b:vd52d6re]
    [i:vd52d6re]Then as a grown up who sins we are re-justified, then after another sin we again get re-justified through confessionals[/i:vd52d6re] then as a last resort [i:vd52d6re]we get the last rights to finally be justfied[/i:vd52d6re] and [i:vd52d6re]if not sure then purgatory fully purifies and we can enter Heaven because we’ve been justified at last.[/i:vd52d6re] Meanwhile we can recieve graces to help fight these sins by attending mass.
    Am I Right?[/quote:vd52d6re]
    Sure, why not? If you want to reduce it that then yes.

    #5729
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Victor says
    [quote:vk6ct0qk]I don’t know what you mean by this. This turns into a finger pointing match. [/quote:vk6ct0qk]
    Quote:
    No answer needed

    [quote:vk6ct0qk]You say in your post about 2 different types of sins – then what do we do with Rev. 21:27 if I am to believe in what your interpretation claims?

    Easy, we have purgatory remember? You get cleansed in Purgatory and the process of continues so you can be made clean and enter heaven. [/quote:vk6ct0qk]
    So let’s see if I have this straight – you say we have Baptism to get Justified 2 until you die to get re-justified in confession to a priest 3 – then there is before death – the last rites and as you just pointed out – even after death, theres Purgatory – all those sacraments and methods to get rid of sins …… I wonder what Jesus accomplished at Calvary then…..
    Naw – I’ll stick with Jesus

    [quote:vk6ct0qk]
    Ron wrote:
    and what about James 2:10

    No contradiction here. Where does it say that all the sins are the same? [/quote:vk6ct0qk]

    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
    Same to me!

    [quote:vk6ct0qk]Ron wrote:
    At least my way the verses don’t fight each other.

    So you say, [/quote:vk6ct0qk]
    Well we agree on that at least
    [quote:vk6ct0qk]
    Ron wrote:
    I showed you the difference, some sins God simply ends a persons physical lifeas in Ananias and his wife in Acts 5, so I guess my glasses are just fine thank you.

    No where in the verse is it talking about physical death???? [/quote:vk6ct0qk]

    Hello? Acts 5 they died 1 Cor. 11:30 the word sleep is used for Chistians that died!

    [quote:vk6ct0qk]
    Ron wrote:
    Why do you avoid answering my question about justification?

    My goodness Ron, are you serious? Scroll up and read. If not, rephrase your question CLEARLY. This seems to be a difficult task for you. [/quote:vk6ct0qk]

    A simple yes or no to hard to type?

    #5730
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:1wzb1xfp]So let’s see if I have this straight – you say we have Baptism to get Justified 2 until you die to get re-justified in confession to a priest 3 – then there is before death – the last rites and as you just pointed out – even after death, theres Purgatory – all those sacraments and methods to get rid of sins …… I wonder what Jesus accomplished at Calvary then…..
    Naw – I’ll stick with Jesus [/quote:1wzb1xfp]

    Stick to whatever you want, but it’s certainly not Christ.

    [quote:1wzb1xfp]James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [/quote:1wzb1xfp]

    I’m not even in the law. Doesn’t apply. Wanna try again? :rolleyes:

    [quote:1wzb1xfp]Hello? Acts 5 they died 1 Cor. 11:30 the word sleep is used for Chistians that died! ]Hello? Acts 5 they died 1 Cor. 11:30 the word sleep is used for Chistians that died! [/quote:1wzb1xfp]

    Hello? I’m talking about in the same verse. Or can you not find it in there and twist other verses to suit your point.

    [quote:1wzb1xfp]Sure, why not? If you want to reduce it that then yes.[/quote:1wzb1xfp]

    I answered your question already, but Jon already did it in simple terms for you.

    ~Victor

    #5731
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    You stated:
    [quote:29tyellr]
    So let’s see if I have this straight – you say we have Baptism to get Justified 2 until you die to get re-justified in confession to a priest 3 – then there is before death – the last rites and as you just pointed out – even after death, theres Purgatory – all those sacraments and methods to get rid of sins …… I wonder what Jesus accomplished at Calvary then…..
    Naw – I’ll stick with Jesus

    Stick to whatever you want, but it’s certainly not Christ[/quote:29tyellr].

    Think you have your prioities mixed up. But it’s the point that I was trying to illustrate earlier. You say the right words (Jesus cleansed us with His Blood on the cross) but then your religious practices show that you still believe in these supposedly methods. And this is no different then your belief in meriting grace, how by definition can that be possible? It goes a gainst Roman’s 11:6! As I said, Victor, you don’t show that Catholics are saved because of this, more like 1 John 1:6 – [b:29tyellr][color=darkred:29tyellr]If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: [/color:29tyellr][/b:29tyellr]

    [quote:29tyellr]Ron wrote:
    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    I’m not even in the law. Doesn’t apply. Wanna try again? [/quote:29tyellr]
    No and you aren’t saved yet either (I said what was needed above but here it is anyway)
    1 Cor 11:30 _For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
    [quote:29tyellr]
    Ron wrote:
    Hello? Acts 5 they died 1 Cor. 11:30 the word sleep is used for Chistians that died! ]Hello? Acts 5 they died 1 Cor. 11:30 the word sleep is used for Chistians that died!

    Hello? I’m talking about in the same verse. Or can you not find it in there and twist other verses to suit your point. [/quote:29tyellr]
    You mean like your Church does?

    [quote:29tyellr]Ron wrote:
    Sure, why not? If you want to reduce it that then yes.

    I answered your question already, but Jon already did it in simple terms for you. [/quote:29tyellr]

    Thank you guys, I think I made you see the problem. Although I doubt that you’ll accept this to be FACT as I show above.

    #5752
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Whats weierd about the whole thing is that i used to go to a non-denominational church that said if you acccepted jesus christ as you lord and savior you have a spot in heaven. This is totally arrogant because satan obviouly wants people to belive that as long as you become a son or doughter of the LORD you wont go to hell. When so much more is need like baptizum. If anyone tells you that dont listen!! :shock:

    #5762
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Lex you wrote



    [quote:1wgdbd1s]Whats weierd about the whole thing is that i used to go to a non-denominational church that said if you acccepted jesus christ as you lord and savior you have a spot in heaven. This is totally arrogant because satan obviouly wants people to belive that as long as you become a son or doughter of the LORD you wont go to hell. When so much more is need like baptizum. If anyone tells you that dont listen!! [/quote:1wgdbd1s]

    Excuse me Lex, but I find that the Gospel of the Bible is one of grace not one of grace plus works as you and the rest of the Catholic church tries to preach. The Bible explains that faith without works is dead, but keep the works as separate, as a reflection of your faith. The faith that saves is in what Christ did at Calvary’s cross not in baptism or anything you can do to merit your salvation such as sacraments, the mass, etc., etc….
    Sorry that you became a Catholic, you certainly won’t find the Biblical Gospel here! Go back to that “weird” Non-dennominational Church – they at least seem to understand the pride-less Gospel message better then this place!

    #5764
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Lex,
    Ron is a self-perscribed anti-catholic who has decided to come in here and pull an [i:2nfe781j]Ad Hominem[/i:2nfe781j] toward what he percieves to be the Catholic Church. It is much easier to call it as he does then to have any real discussion and come to understand. Perhaps doing research and reading people’s post is too much for Ron.

    Please Ron, your more then welcome to disagree with us but your tactics are becoming more venemous and you will not succeed in conveying your information in such a manner. I suggest you pray about what your doing.

    ~Victor

    #5766
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hello Victor

    You say I should pray about what I think? Okay what about you and your way as I wrote earlier –
    [quote:37779mjk]You say the right words (Jesus cleansed us with His Blood on the cross) but then your religious practices show that you still believe in these supposedly methods. And this is no different then your belief in meriting grace, how by definition can that be possible? It goes a gainst Roman’s 11:6! As I said, Victor, you don’t show that Catholics are saved because of this, more like 1 John 1:6 – If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:[/quote:37779mjk]

    There is nothing “venemous ” in that message, just the facts about how mis-lead Catholics are.

    #5767

    Darn. Just when I was hoping this topic was dead…

    #5768
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:dy4t6kfe]Hello Victor

    You say I should pray about what I think? Okay what about you and your way as I wrote earlier – [/quote:dy4t6kfe]

    Ron, do you even bother to read what people write? I didn’t say to pray about [b:dy4t6kfe]what you think[/b:dy4t6kfe]. But rather about what your doing here in this forum.

    [quote:dy4t6kfe]There is nothing “venemous ” in that message, just the facts about how mis-lead Catholics are.[/quote:dy4t6kfe]

    Do you read what you type?!!!! Your coming into a CATHOLIC FORUM and blurting out nonsense like [b:dy4t6kfe][i:dy4t6kfe]how mis-leading Catholics are[/i:dy4t6kfe][/b:dy4t6kfe]. How in the world do you think we are to take this?

    ~Victor

    #5769
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I would hope that what I write would make some sense to the readers. Where do you suggest I go to reach Catholics?

    #5770
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:2y04x99q]I would hope that what I write would make some sense to the readers. Where do you suggest I go to reach Catholics?[/quote:2y04x99q]

    Ron, as I said your welcome to post here all you want and Jon is nice enough allow people of all faiths to come in here and express their views. But don’t be trollish and uncharitable in your post Ron. Just say what you believe and why. DO NOT claim to understand and know what we teach. You have failed miserably in this respect. Catholic theology is both simple and robust.

    Peace In Christ,
    ~Victor

    #5771
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    VICTOR SAYS:
    [quote:3f5un93a]Just say what you believe and why. DO NOT claim to understand and know what we teach. You have failed miserably in this respect. Catholic theology is both simple and robust. [/quote:3f5un93a]

    I can see that Jon is patient, no problem there. However it has been stated (correctly) that what I wrote above is correct in what Catholics are taught, so just where do you feel that I have failed so miserably?

    #5772
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:1ayygw42]I can see that Jon is patient, no problem there. However it has been stated (correctly) that what I wrote above is correct in what Catholics are taught, so just where do you feel that I have failed so miserably?[/quote:1ayygw42]

    This is a good turn. At least now you are asking.. <img loading=” title=”Wink” />
    First you have misunderstood the accoplishments of Calvary as understood by us. How works are savific. How grace works. The list can go on and on. Nonetheless, if you have the desire and patience we can tackle every one slowly and clearly without being on attack mode.

    ~Victor

    #5773
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I wrote:
    [quote:1py8je7o]I can see that Jon is patient, no problem there. However it has been stated (correctly) that what I wrote above is correct in what Catholics are taught, so just where do you feel that I have failed so miserably?[/quote:1py8je7o]

    You wrote:
    [quote:1py8je7o]First you have misunderstood the accoplishments of Calvary as understood by us. How works are savific. How grace works. The list can go on and on. Nonetheless, if you have the desire and patience we can tackle every one slowly and clearly without being on attack mode.[/quote:1py8je7o]

    So if what I wrote earlier was/is correct then explain how I could be wrong?

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