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  • #5671

    [quote:3h2xqgn2][quote:3h2xqgn2]We have a free choice to make, He wasn’t creating robots[/quote:3h2xqgn2]

    Here is where you argument falls Ron. Suffering is only related to free will if got yourself into a mess. But many people suffer thru no fault of their own. This would deem it completely unrelated to free will.

    So now think hard as to why people would suffer through no fault of their own and is unrelated to free will. Take your time.

    ~Victor[/quote:3h2xqgn2]
    I need to take a moment to correct this. People suffer through no fault of their own precisely because of free will – other people’s free will.

    God gave [b:3h2xqgn2]everyone[/b:3h2xqgn2] free will to be able to freely love God or else it would not be a true love for God. But a consequence of that free will are the effects people’s decisions have on others. God gave us free will and never promised that we would be protected from others’ stupid choices.

    #5672
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:3k2p7w4e]I need to take a moment to correct this. People suffer through no fault of their own precisely because of free will – other people’s free will.

    God gave [b:3k2p7w4e]everyone[/b:3k2p7w4e] free will to be able to freely love God or else it would not be a true love for God. But a consequence of that free will are the effects people’s decisions have on others. God gave us free will and never promised that we would be protected from others’ stupid choices.[/quote:3k2p7w4e]

    Where exactly was the correction Jon? <img loading=” title=”Confused” />
    I was talking of things like natural disasters or what have you.

    #5673
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:3mncu2qa]
    You are right up to a point. But if Scriptures reveal a certain way as the only way to Salvation, and if I knew that you weren’t believing in that one way, would you then respond by telliing me not to judge? Aren’t believers to judge all things?

    1 Cor 2:15- But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. [/quote:3mncu2qa]

    Perhaps you could make an objective observation but you still wouldn’t know whether he/she is going to heaven or not. No one knows for sure.

    ~Victor

    #5674

    [quote:1mxrvhnw]Where exactly was the correction Jon? <img loading=” title=”Confused” />
    I was talking of things like natural disasters or what have you.[/quote:1mxrvhnw]

    Sorry, I got the impression you were trying to say that free will is not related to suffering if you are not the one who made the free will choice.

    #5675
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:3uqfu8tv][quote:3uqfu8tv]Where exactly was the correction Jon? <img loading=” title=”Confused” />
    I was talking of things like natural disasters or what have you.[/quote:3uqfu8tv]

    Sorry, I got the impression you were trying to say that free will is not related to suffering if you are not the one who made the free will choice.[/quote:3uqfu8tv]

    Ah I see what you mean.

    #5680
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [color=darkred:1d7v3u5j]Okay let’s get back to the main point [/color:1d7v3u5j]-[b:1d7v3u5j] Jon said, “The sacraments aren’t our work. It’s God’s freely given grace that we receive. We don’t have to do anything but receive the sacrament (God’s grace) openly and in faith.

    The sacraments were instituted by Christ and they are the work of Christ in which we partake.”[/b:1d7v3u5j]

    [color=red:1d7v3u5j]I’m still waiting for a (Biblical) answer to where Jon gets this??[/color:1d7v3u5j]

    #5681
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Here is one that will hopefully at least strike your curiousity further.

    [b:3ptq45pl]Titus 3:5-7[/b:3ptq45pl] ‚Äì [color=green:3ptq45pl]”He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.”[/color:3ptq45pl] This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The [color=green:3ptq45pl]”washing of regeneration” “saves us.”[/color:3ptq45pl] Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase [color=green:3ptq45pl]”saved us”[/color:3ptq45pl] refers to salvation. By [color=red:3ptq45pl]baptism[/color:3ptq45pl], we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to [color=red:3ptq45pl]baptism[/color:3ptq45pl], the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before [color=red:3ptq45pl]baptism[/color:3ptq45pl] could save us. Righteous deeds after [color=red:3ptq45pl]baptism[/color:3ptq45pl] are necessary for our salvation.

    #5682
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:3qqnzjl7]Here is one that will hopefully at least strike your curiousity further.

    [b:3qqnzjl7]Titus 3:5-7[/b:3qqnzjl7] ‚Äì [color=green:3qqnzjl7]”He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.”[/color:3qqnzjl7] This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The [color=green:3qqnzjl7]”washing of regeneration” “saves us.”[/color:3qqnzjl7] Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase [color=green:3qqnzjl7]”saved us”[/color:3qqnzjl7] refers to salvation. By [color=red:3qqnzjl7]baptism[/color:3qqnzjl7], we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to [color=red:3qqnzjl7]baptism[/color:3qqnzjl7], the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before [color=red:3qqnzjl7]baptism[/color:3qqnzjl7] could save us. Righteous deeds after [color=red:3qqnzjl7]baptism[/color:3qqnzjl7] are necessary for our salvation.[/quote:3qqnzjl7]

    I (of course) disagree. My NKJV tells me -Titus 3:5- [b:3qqnzjl7][i:3qqnzjl7]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [/i:3qqnzjl7][/b:3qqnzjl7]

    Then I looked at washing and got this verse from Ephesions 5:26 – [i:3qqnzjl7][b:3qqnzjl7]That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,[/b:3qqnzjl7][/i:3qqnzjl7]

    Now if you claim baptism saves you, wouldn’t you be able to boast, “I got baptized” when Jesus asks why we should get into Heaven? And doesn’t Ephesians 2:8,9 forbid this? [i:3qqnzjl7][b:3qqnzjl7]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. “[/b:3qqnzjl7][/i:3qqnzjl7]

    Also I wrote an article on this baptism – Article #33 – “are you born again?”
    http://www.freewebs.com/gospellightmin/morearticles.htm

    #5683
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:w1xxdo44]Now if you claim baptism saves you, wouldn’t you be able to boast, “I got baptized” when Jesus asks why we should get into Heaven?[/quote:w1xxdo44]
    No. You are assuming baptism is our work but the very verses you quoted show that baptism is the work of God.

    #5684

    [quote:u6dkstox][quote:u6dkstox]Now if you claim baptism saves you, wouldn’t you be able to boast, “I got baptized” when Jesus asks why we should get into Heaven?[/quote:u6dkstox]
    No. You are assuming baptism is our work but the very verses you quoted show that baptism is the work of God.[/quote:u6dkstox]
    And that’s my point.

    #5685
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    John says [b:29ql8cod][quote:29ql8cod]”No. You are assuming baptism is our work but the very verses you quoted show that baptism is the work of God.”[/quote:29ql8cod][/b:29ql8cod]

    So you’re placing your faith in something you do – Baptism – a work by anyone’s definition
    [i:29ql8cod][b:29ql8cod]
    Note what the Bible says – Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:28)

    Gal 2:16 – Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Yes I am aware of 1 Peter 3:21 – The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) [color=darkred:29ql8cod]by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:[/color:29ql8cod][/b:29ql8cod][/i:29ql8cod]

    Note how – [b:29ql8cod][color=darkred:29ql8cod]by the resurrection of Jesus Christ[/color:29ql8cod][/b:29ql8cod] When you read it in context, the verses in front talks about the flood – where water didn’t save anyone there either.

    [color=blue:29ql8cod][b:29ql8cod]Bottom line – I’d refrain from trusting in any works instead I’ll trust in the finished work of Christ at Calvary for my Salvation. To say that Baptism isn’t our work but Christ’s work is a cop out – He did His work at Calvary[/b:29ql8cod][/color:29ql8cod]

    #5686
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    First of all, I said that. Jon just agreed.

    [quote:1gzja1sy]So you’re placing your faith in something you do – Baptism – a work by anyone’s definition[/quote:1gzja1sy]
    :shock:

    How do you reply to a direct quote of mine saying that baptism is God’s work as though I said just the opposite?

    Allow me to repeat it for you:

    Baptism is God’s work. The Bible verses you quoted say that explicitly and unambiguously, hardly what one should be deeming a cop out.

    [quote:1gzja1sy]When you read it in context, the verses in front talks about the flood – [u:1gzja1sy]where water didn’t save anyone there either[/u:1gzja1sy].[/quote:1gzja1sy]
    Interesting.

    In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, [u:1gzja1sy]were saved through water[/u:1gzja1sy]. 1 Peter 2:20

    We also find:

    This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. 1 Peter 3:21

    The Bible says Noah and his sons were saved through water. And this salvation prefigures baptism. The context makes the parallel rather obvious.

    It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. 1 Peter 3:21-22

    And this says that baptism is not a removal of dirt from the body, that is, baptism is not just a physical washing. Baptism is an appeal to God for a clear conscience, an appeal made through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Thus says the Lord GOD: I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you. Ezekiel 36:25-27

    Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:38-39

    The context is not bearing out what you see there. As we saw in Ezekiel, baptism is a work of God. As we know from St. Peter in Acts, baptism was done with literal water (just as Jesus was baptized by St. John the Baptist). And as we know from St. Peter’s epistle, baptism is not a physical washing; it is a spiritual cleansing and renewal.

    #5687
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Read 1 Peter again – doesn’t it say “It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience,[b:ngwuwvx4][color=darkred:ngwuwvx4] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [/color:ngwuwvx4][/b:ngwuwvx4]who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. 1 Peter 3:21-22

    AND Did the water save anyone? No the ark did – a picture of Christ

    Did the thief get a time out to get baptized – no

    and did you forget Acts 10:47?-[color=darkred:ngwuwvx4][i:ngwuwvx4][b:ngwuwvx4]Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? [/b:ngwuwvx4][/i:ngwuwvx4][/color:ngwuwvx4]

    notice that they already were spirit indwelt?

    Even the example you picked out – [quote:ngwuwvx4]
    Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:38-39 [/quote:ngwuwvx4]
    see where it says Repent and be Baptized – first and always comes the belief (the change of heart, the belief in what Jesus did, the point of salvation) then the baptism – the point of public identification –

    Even in Exekiel – It says [color=darkred:ngwuwvx4][i:ngwuwvx4][quote:ngwuwvx4][b:ngwuwvx4]I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities[/b:ngwuwvx4][/quote:ngwuwvx4][/i:ngwuwvx4][/color:ngwuwvx4]
    What is it that HE washes us with? Ephesians 5:26 tells us – [color=darkred:ngwuwvx4][i:ngwuwvx4][b:ngwuwvx4]That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, [/b:ngwuwvx4][/i:ngwuwvx4][/color:ngwuwvx4]

    So as you can see – I think you are being mistaken – Baptism is a work that we do – and as Romans 11:6 says – [color=darkred:ngwuwvx4][i:ngwuwvx4][b:ngwuwvx4]And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. [/b:ngwuwvx4][/i:ngwuwvx4][/color:ngwuwvx4]

    Read also Romans 9:31,32 – and 10:2,3 for another example of why I think you are making the same type of error –

    Rom 9:31,32 – But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

    Rom 10:2,3 – For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they [u:ngwuwvx4][i:ngwuwvx4][b:ngwuwvx4][color=darkred:ngwuwvx4]being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness[/color:ngwuwvx4][/b:ngwuwvx4][/i:ngwuwvx4][/u:ngwuwvx4], have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    #5688

    [quote:2w41j1ra]Read 1 Peter again – doesn’t it say “It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience,[b:2w41j1ra][color=darkred:2w41j1ra] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [/color:2w41j1ra][/b:2w41j1ra]who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. 1 Peter 3:21-22[/quote:2w41j1ra]
    Ron, don’t you see? That’s our point exactly – baptism is a work of Christ, not one where we merit salvation for ourselves.

    [quote:2w41j1ra]AND Did the water save anyone? No the ark did – a picture of Christ[/quote:2w41j1ra]
    That’s anti-Scriptural. A plain reading of 1Pet. 3:20 shows that’s anti-Scriptural. The Scriptures say that he was saved through water! To deny that is to deny the plain and simple truth.

    [quote:2w41j1ra]Did the thief get a time out to get baptized – no[/quote:2w41j1ra]
    Special circumstances allow for special things. If Jesus was standing right in front of me now I hardly doubt I would have to receive any sacraments, but the plain and simple truth is that he’s not here and he offered us these divine channels by which to receive his grace.

    [quote:2w41j1ra]and did you forget Acts 10:47?-[color=darkred:2w41j1ra][i:2w41j1ra][b:2w41j1ra]Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? [/b:2w41j1ra][/i:2w41j1ra][/color:2w41j1ra][/quote:2w41j1ra]
    They are adults – even the Catholic Church requires that adults go through a process of repentance and conversion before they get baptized.

    [quote:2w41j1ra]So as you can see – I think you are being mistaken – Baptism is a work that we do – and as Romans 11:6 says – [color=darkred:2w41j1ra][i:2w41j1ra][b:2w41j1ra]And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. [/b:2w41j1ra][/i:2w41j1ra][/color:2w41j1ra][/quote:2w41j1ra]
    [b:2w41j1ra]Context, context, context[/b:2w41j1ra]. Let’s do a quick Bible study. Paul is constantly referrring to the works of the Law – the Jewish Law found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. The question at hand is whether one still needs to perform the Jewish rituals for salvation, but the answer is no. It was decided at the Council of Jerusalem (somewhere in the book of Acts – I’m too lazy to look it up) that you don’t have to be Jewish to be of Christ. “Works” as referred to in Paul’s letters aren’t works of faith or anything else like that – otherwise it would be contradicting James 2:24.

    Baptism and any other sacrament is Christ’s free gift to us for salvation. It is something he does and is possible only because he died and rose again.

    #5689
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hello Jon,
    [quote:1bikjtgu]You say “Baptism and any other sacrament is Christ’s free gift to us for salvation. It is something he does and is possible only because he died and rose again” [/quote:1bikjtgu]

    But show me where you get this Scripturally as I don’t see this to contradict James 2:24 in anyway. But it does contradict Ephesians 2:8+9 and Romans 11:6 among other places. James 2:24 doesn’t because just as Ephesians 2:10 follows the belief, so does our works [b:1bikjtgu][u:1bikjtgu]follow the belief [/u:1bikjtgu][/b:1bikjtgu]in Jesus and His Finished work at Calvary.

    You also say:
    [quote:1bikjtgu]
    Context, context, context. Let’s do a quick Bible study. Paul is constantly referrring to the works of the Law – the Jewish Law found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. The question at hand is whether one still needs to perform the Jewish rituals for salvation, but the answer is no. It was decided at the Council of Jerusalem (somewhere in the book of Acts – I’m too lazy to look it up) that you don’t have to be Jewish to be of Christ. “Works” as referred to in Paul’s letters aren’t works of faith or anything else like that – otherwise it would be contradicting James 2:24. [/quote:1bikjtgu]

    The Jewish law is what they lived before but whatelse could he have said? He never specified the Jewish Law- that is what your Catholic people would have us believe, but that isn’t what Paul says is it? The Bible simply says “by [u:1bikjtgu][b:1bikjtgu]the[/b:1bikjtgu][/u:1bikjtgu] law, no one will be saved” [/quote]

    #5690
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:1vptohp7]James 2:24 doesn’t because just as Ephesians 2:10 follows the belief, so does our works [b:1vptohp7][u:1vptohp7]follow the belief [/u:1vptohp7][/b:1vptohp7]in Jesus and His Finished work at Calvary.[/quote:1vptohp7]
    If you will read James 2 again, you will notice that he does not say works only follow belief but that [u:1vptohp7]we are justified[/u:1vptohp7] by our works and [b:1vptohp7]not[/b:1vptohp7] by faith alone.

    [quote:1vptohp7]The Jewish law is what they lived before but whatelse could he have said? He never specified the Jewish Law- that is what your Catholic people would have us believe, but that isn’t what Paul says is it? The Bible simply says “by [u:1vptohp7][b:1vptohp7]the[/b:1vptohp7][/u:1vptohp7] law, no one will be saved” [/quote:1vptohp7][/quote]
    Ron, you are belying an ignorance of Scripture. Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant … it makes no difference, all Biblical scholars acknowledge the plain fact that St. Paul is addressing Jewish law (Levirite, Mosaic, etc).

    For explicit proof of such, just look at Hebrew 7:11-12:

    If, then, perfection came through the [u:1vptohp7]levitical priesthood[/u:1vptohp7], on the basis of which the people [u:1vptohp7]received the law[/u:1vptohp7], what need would there still have been for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not reckoned according to the order of Aaron? When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily [u:1vptohp7]a change of law as well[/u:1vptohp7].

    #5691
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Benedict, you wrote –
    [b:1lpbnr08][quote:1lpbnr08]If you will read James 2 again, you will notice that he does not say works only follow belief but that we are justified by our works and not by faith alone[/quote:1lpbnr08][/b:1lpbnr08]

    Sure without works one’s faith is dead – but our works are only a witness to our faith – not a means to having sins removed, nor our Salvation. To believe as you do is to ignore the Romans verses that I quoted, the Ephesian 2:8+9 and many other verses – It’s Faith Alone in Christ alone – that saves by His Blood (not sacraments) alone through grace alone !!!

    Benedict also added:[b:1lpbnr08][quote:1lpbnr08]
    Ron, you are belying an ignorance of Scripture. Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant … it makes no difference, all Biblical scholars acknowledge the plain fact that St. Paul is addressing Jewish law (Levirite, Mosaic, etc). [/quote:1lpbnr08][/b:1lpbnr08]

    So what does that matter, oh wise one? He doesn’t specify Jewish laws or any other type, Scriptures say many times that by observing the law saves no one. Or do we rip out Galations 2:16?

    Gal 2:16 – [b:1lpbnr08][color=darkred:1lpbnr08]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, [u:1lpbnr08]that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified[/u:1lpbnr08].[/color:1lpbnr08][/b:1lpbnr08]

    #5692

    [quote:2vkcm0x0]So what does that matter, oh wise one? He doesn’t specify Jewish laws or any other type, Scriptures say many times that by observing the law saves no one. Or do we rip out Galations 2:16?

    Gal 2:16 – [b:2vkcm0x0][color=darkred:2vkcm0x0]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, [u:2vkcm0x0]that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified[/u:2vkcm0x0].[/color:2vkcm0x0][/b:2vkcm0x0][/quote:2vkcm0x0]
    Ron, it’s basic biblical scholarship that Paul was referrring to THE one and only Law of the time. Even the Galatians quote is still referring to the Mosaic Law. It’s not just some random law or all laws in all lands at all times.

    There were specific things the writers of the books of the Bible were addressing to the communities to which they wrote. Whether they had to obey the Mosaic Law or not was still an issue in these new Christian communities in which many still considered themselves Jews actually.

    #5693
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Jon Says:[quote:223edzr8]
    , it’s basic biblical scholarship that Paul was referrring to THE one and only Law of the time. Even the Galatians quote is still referring to the Mosaic Law. It’s not just some random law or all laws in all lands at all times. [/quote:223edzr8]

    Sorry Jon but Scriptures weren’t written for only those people, but for us as well. Now why should anyone now days worry about the Jewish laws only? Show me scripturally where you distinguish this.

    #5694

    You are right Ron – Scripture was written for all people at all times all over the world. However, objectively Paul was referrring to the Jewish Law.

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