Other views on salvation

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  • #5649
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Which is What? It was – Our sin Penalty was defeated (the wages of sin is death) and death had no power over Him. What part don’t you understand?

    #5650
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:4rg3de8j]Which is What? It was – Our sin Penalty was defeated (the wages of sin is death) and death had no power over Him. What part don’t you understand?[/quote:4rg3de8j]

    Ron, you said that at the ressurection the following was accomplished:

    [quote:4rg3de8j]First you said He did it to:

    Defeat the death penalty for sin

    Now your saying:

    He had to prove that death had no power over Him

    Which is it? [/quote:4rg3de8j]

    You get it now?

    #5651
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    He did both, He cleansed us (believers) from all sin, And that is what He finished on the cross

    then He rose again

    What is it you don’t understand?????

    #5652
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:22517a7k]He did both, He cleansed us (believers) from all sin, And that is what He finished on the cross

    then He rose again

    What is it you don’t understand?????[/quote:22517a7k]

    I understand clearly, I think it’s you that doesn’t understand. But you still haven’t answered my question. If Christ accomplished the following at the RESSURECTION [not calvary]:

    [b:22517a7k]Defeat the death penalty for sin[/b:22517a7k]

    How could it be complete?

    ~Victor

    #5653
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    If you understand it, then tell us what He finished (He said “it is finished”)
    when He was on the cross. Then He resurrected – What was it that He meant when He said it?

    P.S. – I don’t think it was the Paschel Supper that He was referring to!

    #5654
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:3partn3s]If you understand it, then tell us what He finished (He said “it is finished”)
    when He was on the cross. Then He resurrected – What was it that He meant when He said it?

    P.S. – I don’t think it was the Paschel Supper that He was referring to![/quote:3partn3s]

    I’m fully aware that you don’t think it’s the Paschel Supper but I was even willing to agree with you for the sake of furthering the discussion. But still you neglected no answer. Apparently you think it was finished but still give importance to the ressurection enough to not ignore it by calling it “proof” and that our [i:3partn3s]Lord defeated the death penalty for sin.[/i:3partn3s] He accomplished all this but yet it was already finished? Sorry Ron, but I’m not following. I’m gonna assume you either don’t know the answer or don’t want to answer. Let’s move on.

    As far as what was accomplished at Calvary here is a wonderful explanation by Scott Hahn again. Pay close attention to the difference of your own understanding and the catholic understanding of what was accomplished:

    [quote:3partn3s]I had firm convictions about the finished work of Jesus Christ; that He accomplished our redemption on the cross. Those convictions I still hold fast to. Every Christian, every Catholic must. The work of our redemption is accomplished. It is finished. [b:3partn3s]But the application of that redemptive work of Christ by the Holy Spirit is another matter[/b:3partn3s], one that I did not really come to grips with because it involves suffering which nobody wants to come to grips with – either suffering in this life or suffering afterwards to expiate or to repay or to provide restitution for the effects of sin. [/quote:3partn3s]

    #5655
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Victor,
    You said, “[i:fzeomxhx]Pay close attention to the difference of your own understanding and the catholic understanding of what was accomplished”[/i:fzeomxhx]

    Then Mr Hahn says, “
    I had firm convictions about the finished work of Jesus Christ; that He accomplished our redemption on the cross. Those convictions I still hold fast to. Every Christian, every Catholic must. The work of our redemption is accomplished. [b:fzeomxhx]It is finished[/b:fzeomxhx].

    But the application of that redemptive work of Christ by the Holy Spirit is another matter, one that I did not really come to grips with [u:fzeomxhx][i:fzeomxhx]because it involves suffering which nobody wants to come to grips with – either suffering in this life or suffering afterwards to expiate or to repay or to provide restitution for the effects of sin. [/i:fzeomxhx][/u:fzeomxhx]

    [color=darkred:fzeomxhx][b:fzeomxhx]That’s the catch – if Jesus finished it, sure we’ll still have to deal with the reaping whatever cosequenses our sin causes here on Earth, but to say we have to repay or to provide restitution spiritually denys that Jesus cleansed us – don’t you see this? You can’t mix the two realms up! [/b:fzeomxhx][/color:fzeomxhx]Ron

    #5657
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:23pk006m]That’s the catch – if Jesus finished it, sure we’ll still have to deal with the reaping whatever cosequenses our sin causes here on Earth, [/quote:23pk006m]

    Exactly, and this is what we see as repaying. If He fully paid in [b:23pk006m]EVERYWAY[/b:23pk006m] we wouldn’t be suffering would we?

    [quote:23pk006m]but to say we have to repay or to provide restitution spiritually denys that Jesus cleansed us – don’t you see this? You can’t mix the two realms up! Ron[/quote:23pk006m]

    No, I do not. I addressed this above.

    ~Victor

    #5658
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    You say:

    [b:2q9tior4]If He fully paid in EVERYWAY we wouldn’t be suffering would we?[/b:2q9tior4]

    Yet Scriptures show Isaiah 53:5 – [u:2q9tior4]By His Stripes we are healed[/u:2q9tior4]

    Romans 5:9 – [u:2q9tior4]justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [/u:2q9tior4]

    plus many other verses show that He did it all. Still Scriptures likewise show our sinful nature Just as Paul was in sin to an extent (Romans 7:15 to 8:1) So who gets the credit for our Salvation? Jesus, not by giving us a way to merit Salvation through sacramnts, but by Faith in what He did at calvary….lest we boast.

    #5659
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:5v7dptq9]You say:

    [b:5v7dptq9]If He fully paid in EVERYWAY we wouldn’t be suffering would we?[/b:5v7dptq9]

    Yet Scriptures show Isaiah 53:5 – [u:5v7dptq9]By His Stripes we are healed[/u:5v7dptq9]

    Romans 5:9 – [u:5v7dptq9]justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [/u:5v7dptq9]

    plus many other verses show that He did it all. Still Scriptures likewise show our sinful nature Just as Paul was in sin to an extent (Romans 7:15 to 8:1) So who gets the credit for our Salvation? Jesus, not by giving us a way to merit Salvation through sacramnts, but by Faith in what He did at calvary….lest we boast.[/quote:5v7dptq9]

    I’m sorry but where exactly did you answer my question? Are you saying that if we have faith we will not suffer down on earth?

    ~Victor

    #5660
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Victor says:

    [i:tq8ljqo2]”I’m sorry but where exactly did you answer my question? Are you saying that if we have faith we will not suffer down on earth? “[/i:tq8ljqo2]

    No I’m not. I’m saying because He paid for our sins, cleansing us, Having purged us of sin, then when we die, we don’t need a purgatory, Penances on Earth don’t cleanse our soul either, we must distinguish what is the Spiritual from the Physical as Paul did in Romans 7:15 to 8:1. Jesus finished purifying us, our entry into Heaven. Heaven is a given for those who trust in what He did at Calvary. This is why I reject the idea that Jesus instituted sacraments to dispense graces – because then we’d be trying to merit graces through them –

    The Bible gives many examples of us suffering because we sin but not as a way to merit salvation.

    #5661
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:2ey1ewm2]No I’m not. I’m saying because He paid for our sins, cleansing us, Having purged us of sin, then when we die, we don’t need a purgatory, Penances on Earth don’t cleanse our soul either, we must distinguish what is the Spiritual from the Physical as Paul did in Romans 7:15 to 8:1. Jesus finished purifying us, our entry into Heaven. Heaven is a given for those who trust in what He did at Calvary. This is why I reject the idea that Jesus instituted sacraments to dispense graces – because then we’d be trying to merit graces through them –

    The Bible gives many examples of us suffering because we sin but not as a way to merit salvation.[/quote:2ey1ewm2]

    Salvation is a huge topic and I would rather take baby steps in order to understand each other. For now, I will refrain from going into Purgatory or Penances. They are deffinately linked but there are other threads on this already.

    As I pointed out (which you agree) that Christ’s death on the cross was unable to take away the applications of suffering down on earth. At least we got that out of the way. <img loading=” title=”Smile” />

    Is God unable to take away suffering down on earth? I’m sure you’ll agree that He certainly can put a stop to it. So why did He let it remain Ron?
    I’m trying to help you understand the catholic world view but you keep on wanting to prove me wrong. Just answer the questions honestly and follow along.

    In Christ
    ~Victor

    #5662
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Victor states:
    [b:l8vo6hv8]As I pointed out (which you agree) that Christ’s death on the cross was unable to take away the applications of suffering down on earth. At least we got that out of the way.
    [color=darkred:l8vo6hv8] Okay[/color:l8vo6hv8]

    Is God unable to take away suffering down on earth? I’m sure you’ll agree that He certainly can put a stop to it. So why did He let it remain Ron?
    [color=darkred:l8vo6hv8]We have a free choice to make, He wasn’t creating robots [/color:l8vo6hv8]

    I’m trying to help you understand the catholic world view but you keep on wanting to prove me wrong. Just answer the questions honestly and follow along[/b:l8vo6hv8]. [color=darkred:l8vo6hv8] okay now what?
    [/color:l8vo6hv8]

    #5663
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:3nog5geo]We have a free choice to make, He wasn’t creating robots[/quote:3nog5geo]

    Here is where you argument falls Ron. Suffering is only related to free will if got yourself into a mess. But many people suffer thru no fault of their own. This would deem it completely unrelated to free will.

    So now think hard as to why people would suffer through no fault of their own and is unrelated to free will. Take your time.

    ~Victor

    #5664
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    "Victor":2dqddttw wrote:
    [quote:2dqddttw]We have a free choice to make, He wasn’t creating robots[/quote:2dqddttw][/quote:2dqddttw]

    Here is where you argument falls Ron. Suffering is only related to free will if got yourself into a mess. But many people suffer thru no fault of their own. This would deem it completely unrelated to free will.

    So now think hard as to why people would suffer through no fault of their own and is unrelated to free will. Take your time
    [color=darkred:2dqddttw]
    True, Satan can cause problems (as in Job chapters 1+2) and then we see God chastizes His Chidren (as in Hebrews 12) And of course, the Spirit draws people to God, so to seperate us from our Earthly desires He could allow suffering. But sin is the main reason for hardships as we saw with Adam and Eve. [/color:2dqddttw]

    #5665
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:3iwq2lax]True, Satan can cause problems (as in Job chapters 1+2) and then we see God chastizes His Chidren (as in Hebrews 12) And of course, the Spirit draws people to God, so to seperate us from our Earthly desires He could allow suffering. But sin is the main reason for hardships as we saw with Adam and Eve. [/quote:3iwq2lax]

    Ok, at least we are moving forward. So you say we suffer because of sin, right? But now we are getting back to what Christ completed on Calvary. Apparently He died for our sins (which I agree with) but the affects of sin are still felt on earth, correct? The fact that Christ died on the cross for us makes our suffering, works, etc. pleasable to Him. Because we are IN GRACE. Do you agree?

    ~Victor

    #5666
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Victor says:
    [b:9oyb6yvc][i:9oyb6yvc]Ok, at least we are moving forward. So you say we suffer because of sin, right? But now we are getting back to what Christ completed on Calvary. Apparently He died for our sins (which I agree with) but the affects of sin are still felt on earth, correct?

    [color=darkred:9oyb6yvc]I have no problem with that, correct.[/color:9oyb6yvc]

    The fact that Christ died on the cross for us makes our suffering, works, etc. pleasable to Him. Because we are IN GRACE. Do you agree[/i:9oyb6yvc][/b:9oyb6yvc]?
    [color=darkred:9oyb6yvc]
    Not necessarily, because none believers aren’t “In Grace” until they become saved. Also I’m not so sure our suffering, works etc., are pleasurable to Him, but please continue anyway[/color:9oyb6yvc]

    #5667
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:2kx283e1]Not necessarily, because none believers aren’t “In Grace” until they become saved. Also I’m not so sure our suffering, works etc., are pleasurable to Him, but please continue anyway[/quote:2kx283e1]

    I don’t think you or anybody has the right nor the wisdom to know who is or isn’t in Grace with complete certainty. And as you may have already have noticed that catholics believe that [b:2kx283e1]true believers[/b:2kx283e1] can lose Grace and hence salvation.

    ~Victor

    #5669
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:2q9txy8z]Also I’m not so sure our suffering, works etc., are pleasurable to Him[/quote:2q9txy8z]
    You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons: “My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him; for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges.” Hebrews 12:5-6

    “For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him.” Philippians 1:29

    “I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, the church.” Colossians 1:24

    “For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.” Ephesians 2:10

    “For He will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.” Romans 2:6‚Äì11

    And the king will say to them in reply, “Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, so also you did for me.” Matthew 25:40

    #5670
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Victor says:
    [b:1c4wr74x]
    I don’t think you or anybody has the right nor the wisdom to know who is or isn’t in Grace with complete certainty. And as you may have already have noticed that catholics believe that true believers can lose Grace and hence salvation[/b:1c4wr74x].

    [color=darkred:1c4wr74x]
    You are right up to a point. But if Scriptures reveal a certain way as the only way to Salvation, and if I knew that you weren’t believing in that one way, would you then respond by telliing me not to judge? Aren’t believers to judge all things?

    1 Cor 2:15- But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. [/color:1c4wr74x]


    Benedict – What is your point? Works – read this [i:1c4wr74x][b:1c4wr74x]Article #6 – What About Good Works? [/b:1c4wr74x][/i:1c4wr74x] at

    http://www.freewebs.com/gospellightmin/articles.htm

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