Other views on salvation

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  • #5609
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hello Fred,

    Peace be to you also,

    John 6:28+29 – “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

    and what did Jesus do?

    A LOOK AT GOD’S PLAN:

    ISA 53:5 – But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and [u:2a0wr3cn][b:2a0wr3cn]with his stripes we are healed. [/b:2a0wr3cn][/u:2a0wr3cn]

    ROM 5:9 – Much more then, [u:2a0wr3cn][b:2a0wr3cn]being now justified by his blood[/b:2a0wr3cn][/u:2a0wr3cn], we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    ACTS 20:28 – which[b:2a0wr3cn][u:2a0wr3cn] he hath purchased with his own blood.[/u[/b:2a0wr3cn]]

    EPH 1:7 – In whom[b:2a0wr3cn] we have redemption through his blood[/u:2a0wr3cn], the forgiveness of sins,[/b:2a0wr3cn] according to the riches of his grace;

    COL 1:14 – In whom we have redemption[u:2a0wr3cn][b:2a0wr3cn] through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: [/b:2a0wr3cn][/u:2a0wr3cn]

    COL 1:20 – And, having made peace[u:2a0wr3cn][b:2a0wr3cn] through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself;[/b:2a0wr3cn][/u:2a0wr3cn] by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

    HEB 10:10-12, 14 – By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: (12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God ;(14) [u:2a0wr3cn][b:2a0wr3cn]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. [/b:2a0wr3cn][/u:2a0wr3cn]

    1 PET 1:18 -19 – Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; (19) But[u:2a0wr3cn][b:2a0wr3cn] with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish [/b:2a0wr3cn][/u:2a0wr3cn]and without spot:

    I JN 1:7 – But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the [u:2a0wr3cn][b:2a0wr3cn]blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [/b:2a0wr3cn][/u:2a0wr3cn]

    REV 1:5 – And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, [u:2a0wr3cn][b:2a0wr3cn]and washed us from our sins in his own blood[/b:2a0wr3cn][/u:2a0wr3cn],

    In other words, when Jesus said, “It is finished” as He died on the cross, He was declaring that He did everything (and the only thing) that takes away sins. That is further shown in Hebrews 1:3 where it says “After having PURGED our sins..”

    Noticed the focus is in what He did? John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” The Bible reveals that Salvation is a gift, attained by faith in what He did nearly 2000 years ago at Calvary, not what we do. The perfect righteousness, needed to enter Heaven is imputed to our account the moment we accept God’s gift by making that “born-again” decision of making Him your personal Lord and Savior, thus we can know that, “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (ROMANS 3:24)

    2 Cor 5:21 – For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Rom 6:23 – For the wages of sin is death; but[u:2a0wr3cn][b:2a0wr3cn] the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. [/b:2a0wr3cn][/u:2a0wr3cn]

    I don’t think that Jesus was referring to sacraments as a reason or method to get saved, but that is what Scott Hahn might want us to believe.
    Yet I find that Jesus was refering to His shed blood for that reason.
    Notice verse 6:23? It is a gift not a wage. He came to save sinners
    with His finished work at Calvary, not by what we do.

    #5611

    The sacraments aren’t our work. It’s God’s freely given grace that we receive. We don’t have to do anything but receive the sacrament (God’s grace) openly and in faith.

    The sacraments were instituted by Christ and they are the work of Christ in which we partake.

    #5612
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Okay Jon, so tell me where you find this out from? I already showed what the Bible tells us, how He did it was done at Calvary, with His blood, so where did you get that the sacraments do this?

    [b:2b6cfh7i]The sacraments aren’t our work. It’s God’s freely given grace that we receive. We don’t have to do anything but receive the sacrament (God’s grace) openly and in faith.

    The sacraments were instituted by Christ and they are the work of Christ.
    _________________[/b:2b6cfh7i]

    #5613
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Peace be with you Ron,

    [quote:2ws8qst1]John 6:28+29 – “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” [/quote:2ws8qst1]

    Again you quote incorrectly and out of context. Jesus is speaking of the Bread of Life, Him, and the Sacrament he institutes. If you read the [b:2ws8qst1]entire[/b:2ws8qst1] passage you would know this. Christ has just multiplied the fishes and the loaves and feed 5000. The backdrop to all of this is Passover. After this the Apostles get back in to the boat to cross to Capernaum. Christ has walked on water crossing the Sea of Galilee. The next day the crowd realizes Christ and the Apostles have gone to Capernaum and the seek out Christ. Once they find Him he begins to teach about the Bread of Life. Where we pick-up:

    [quote:2ws8qst1]25 And when they found him across the sea they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
    26 Jesus answered them and said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal.” 28 So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.” 30 So they said to him, “What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do? 31 Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'” 32 So Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 So they said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst. 36 But I told you that although you have seen (me), you do not believe. 37 Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, 38 because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. 39 And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day.” 41 The Jews murmured about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven,” 42 and they said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop murmuring among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; 50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.” 52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”[/quote:2ws8qst1]

    So inadvertently you have begun to prove the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist and it’s importance.

    [quote:2ws8qst1] ISA 53:5 – But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.[/quote:2ws8qst1]

    Amen! But there is more:

    [quote:2ws8qst1] 8 Oppressed and condemned, he was taken away, and who would have thought any more of his destiny? When he was cut off from the land of the living, and smitten for the sin of his people, 9 A grave was assigned him among the wicked and a burial place with evildoers, Though he had done no wrong nor spoken any falsehood.
    10 (But the LORD was pleased to crush him in infirmity.) If he gives his life as an offering for sin, he shall see his descendants in a long life, and the will of the LORD shall be accomplished through him. 11 Because of his affliction he shall see the light in fullness of days; Through his suffering, my servant shall justify many, and their guilt he shall bear. 12 Therefore I will give him his portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death and was counted among the wicked; And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses.[/quote:2ws8qst1]

    Christ will rise again! Amen! It must be so, and then God’s Plan is completed.

    [quote:2ws8qst1] ROM 5:9 – Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.[/quote:2ws8qst1]

    But what is said in the next verse?

    [quote:2ws8qst1]9 How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath. 10 Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, [b:2ws8qst1]once reconciled, will we be saved by his life.[/b:2ws8qst1][/quote:2ws8qst1]

    Christ must died and then rise. Amen!

    [quote:2ws8qst1] ACTS 20:28 – which he hath purchased with his own [u:2ws8qst1]blood.[/u:2ws8qst1][/quote:2ws8qst1]

    Amen! Paul is delivering his farewell speech to the presbyters of the church of Ephesus and has charged

    them:

    [quote:2ws8qst1] 28 Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired
    with his own blood. 29 I know that afterfruits or our Faith and my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. 30 And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them. 31 So be vigilant and remember that for three years, night and day, I unceasingly admonished each of you with tears.[/quote:2ws8qst1]

    Paul is reminding them of the price paid and the debt owed. This can go on but I think my point is made. Christ had to die and Rise for His Pascal Sacrifice to be complete. What you cite supports this as well but you leave out the importance of His resurrection in God’s Plan for our Salvation. Secondly, full quotes of the verses and quoting in context is paramount to the meaning and truths held within them.

    We are saved by Faith. Amen! Works are but the fruits of our faith and the will of God.

    [quote:2ws8qst1]27 Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life,  which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal.” 28 So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?”
    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.”[/quote:2ws8qst1]

    God Bless!

    Fred

    #5614
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Peace to you also Fred,

    You said-

    [b:1g8969ec]Again you quote incorrectly and out of context. Jesus is speaking of the Bread of Life, Him, and the Sacrament he institutes. If you read the entire passage you would know this.[/b:1g8969ec]

    But you haven’t gotten it right yet. John Chapter 4 (When Jesus was at the well) we find –

    [i:1g8969ec]Looking closely at John, chapters four through six, we gain these significant insights. Here, Jesus made some very picturesque statements in an attempt to make us understand the importance of believing in Him. We also see that His words often are spoken in spiritual meanings, not to be taken as literal meanings. For instance, after Jesus spoke with the Samaritan woman at the well, His disciples brought food to Him saying “Master eat.” to which Jesus replied, “I have food to eat that you know nothing about.” Now if we take His words literally, we’d have to wonder if He had a hidden cheeseburger under His robe. But two verses later, we are given the meaning of His words: “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.” Likewise in John chapter six, Jesus speaks in the same manner in verse 35 : “Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty….’ ” verse 51 “I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.’ ” …. verse 54 “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” and finally verse 58. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” These verses cannot be taken literally because Christians today get hungry and thirsty daily, and one only needs to look at the obituaries to see that Christians die. Thankfully, Jesus again doesn’t leave us wondering because in verse 63, He says, “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.”

    If we take these verses, we can benefit further if we add the insights given in Matthew 15: 11 and 17 where Jesus states that what goes into the mouth cannot defile anyone, because it passes through the body, but rather it is what comes from the heart that defiles a person. (Naturally this applies to what enters the mouth can’t make one holy either.)

    You focus on sacraments as a means to merit Salvation whereas Jesus shed His blood to purge our sins. Communion is to be done as a remembrence of this. Fortunately, we also have in Acts 7:48 and 17:24 where we see the Bible clearly telling us that, “… the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.”
    Matthew 24:26+27 tells us “Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” Jesus
    arose and sits at the right hand of the father not in a piece of bread.[/i:1g8969ec]

    I’m afraid that you are mistaken (Fred) because you don’t know Scriptures
    and I pray that you will not harden your hearts to the truth.

    Peace

    Ron

    #5616
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hey Jon, Are you going to Answer this or What? If Jesus died to purge a believer then where did this come from?

    [quote:sf1dvsc2]Okay Jon, so tell me where you find this out from? I already showed what the Bible tells us, how He did it was done at Calvary, with His blood, so where did you get that the sacraments do this?

    [b:sf1dvsc2]The sacraments aren’t our work. It’s God’s freely given grace that we receive. We don’t have to do anything but receive the sacrament (God’s grace) openly and in faith.

    The sacraments were instituted by Christ and they are the work of Christ.
    _________________[/b:sf1dvsc2][/quote:sf1dvsc2][/i]

    #5617

    [quote:3l7byi6j]Hey Jon, Are you going to Answer this or What? If Jesus died to purge a believer then where did this come from?[/quote:3l7byi6j]
    Chill, man. Again, that was kind of rude. I’ve got a full time job and a family to attend to. Just because I don’t answer you right away doesn’t mean I am ignoring you.

    All I ask is for you to be a little more courteous as I have done nothing but extend the same to you. Please be a little more considerate. Thank you.

    I will respond in due time.

    #5635
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:1i7wlit3][quote:1i7wlit3]Hey Jon, Are you going to Answer this or What? If Jesus died to purge a believer then where did this come from?[/quote:1i7wlit3]
    Chill, man. Again, that was kind of rude. I’ve got a full time job and a family to attend to. Just because I don’t answer you right away doesn’t mean I am ignoring you.

    All I ask is for you to be a little more courteous as I have done nothing but extend the same to you. Please be a little more considerate. Thank you.

    I will respond in due time.[/quote:1i7wlit3]

    [b:1i7wlit3]I’m still waiting Jon (patiently)[/b:1i7wlit3]

    #5636

    [quote:qk2kyon9][b:qk2kyon9]I’m still waiting Jon (patiently)[/b:qk2kyon9][/quote:qk2kyon9]

    No problem, man. I’m still writing (with a little vacation time thrown in there). I’m glad to see you back. I thought you gave up. <img loading=” title=”Wink” />

    #5637
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Ron, I’d like to contribute to the conversation. But before I do, can you please clarify your question? Are you asking why catholics believe sacraments gives us grace?

    ~Victor

    #5638
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:21d8o1rd]Ron, I’d like to contribute to the conversation. But before I do, can you please clarify your question? Are you asking why catholics believe sacraments gives us grace?

    ~Victor[/quote:21d8o1rd]
    Hello Victor,
    Basically I’m asking why – If you deny tihe saving value of Jesus’s finished work at calvary and yet you claim that we recieve graces through sacraments, (dispite Romans 11:6 – work OR grace – it cannot be both)
    where or upon what do you base sacraments as having been established for that purpose?

    Ron

    #5640

    Well, Ron, it sounds like what I was writing won’t answer your question.

    What it really boils down to is whether you believe that salvation is a process or if salvation is an instantaneous event that you are guaranteed once you profess faith in Jesus.

    As Catholics and coming from the perspective that salvation is a process then sacraments make sense. No, they are not our work, but the work of Christ. However if the only thing you believe is the God gave us the Bible and Jesus died on the cross and all you need to do is ask him into your heart then no, it won’t make sense.

    What I was initially writing comes from a Catholic perspective but I see that won’t help to explain anything…back to the drawing board.

    #5641
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hey Jon, You say:

    [u:jaa7oyy1][b:jaa7oyy1]As Catholics and coming from the perspective that salvation is a process then sacraments make sense[/b:jaa7oyy1][/u:jaa7oyy1].

    At least try to tell me how this makes sense?

    Ron

    #5642

    How can I do that if you don’t believe salvation is a process?

    #5643
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:dzz4na17]How can I do that if you don’t believe salvation is a process?[/quote:dzz4na17]

    Well one of us is wrong, so If you feel you are right, then your reasons are what and why and are they Biblical?

    Victor – you may answer this as well

    or aren’t we here for this purpose?

    With all due respect,
    Ron

    #5644
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Before we even get into the monolithic dialogue of salvation we need to tackle down our understandings of [b:206qj8ax]”it is finished”[/b:206qj8ax]. Fred had given Ron Scott Hahn’s explanation of it but I think he missed it or didn’t read it. If your understanding is correct Ron then why did God have to ressurect? There would be no need for it if is was finished. But let’s say you are correct, what was completed? Please be very clear.

    ~Victor

    #5645
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:3q76mayn]Before we even get into the monolithic dialogue of salvation we need to tackle down our understandings of [b:3q76mayn]”it is finished”[/b:3q76mayn]. Fred had given Ron Scott Hahn’s explanation of it but I think he missed it or didn’t read it. If your understanding is correct Ron then why did God have to ressurect? There would be no need for it if is was finished. But let’s say you are correct, what was completed? Please be very clear.

    ~Victor[/quote:3q76mayn]

    Well Victor, in not so plain english Jesus resurrected to defeat the death penalty for sin, to show He is/was God and to enable us (believers) then to be able to resurrect as well. Jesus came like 2 Corinthians 5:21 says
    “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” He became our substitution, our propitiation at Calvary thus cleansing whosoever believes in Him.

    Thus by His Stripes we are healed Isaiah 53:5

    In other words He cleanses, purchased, bought, redeemed, anyone who trusts His finished work at Calvary with His Blood.[color=darkred:3q76mayn][b:3q76mayn][i:3q76mayn]
    1 Peter 1:18-“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”[/i:3q76mayn][/b:3q76mayn][/color:3q76mayn]

    This is all clearly said in Scriptures, not by anything we do- the sin issue was addressed and conquered nearly 2000 years ago, by His death not by our attaining growth or virtues or graces through sacraments. If sacraments did it, then we could boast about our attaining grace depending upon how often we partook of them.
    Ron

    I’ve seen much of Scott Hahn materials but who is he that we should take his view over what God says in His Word?

    #5646
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:xeymp7ax]Well Victor, in not so plain english Jesus resurrected to defeat the death penalty for sin,[/quote:xeymp7ax]

    Then why did He say it was finished if He still needed to [i:xeymp7ax]defeat the death penalty for sin[/i:xeymp7ax]? I don’t see where you answered this.

    [quote:xeymp7ax]]I’ve seen much of Scott Hahn materials but who is he that we should take his view over what God says in His Word?[/quote:xeymp7ax]

    I’ll take your word on that but I’m skeptical about that. You don’t have to listen to him. He was simply explaining what “it is finished” means in accordance to Catholic understanding.

    ~Victor

    #5647
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:1tpi6v9q][quote:1tpi6v9q]Well Victor, in not so plain english Jesus resurrected to defeat the death penalty for sin,[/quote:1tpi6v9q]

    Then why did He say it was finished if He still needed to [i:1tpi6v9q]defeat the death penalty for sin[/i:1tpi6v9q]? I don’t see where you answered this.

    ~Victor[/quote:1tpi6v9q]

    [b:1tpi6v9q]He was finished Cleansing believers with what He did on the cross. That part of His time here, that he did finish,
    [u:1tpi6v9q]then[/u:1tpi6v9q] He had to prove that death had no power over Him. No, Alla, no Budda, etc etc.,,, none of these ever came back to life. [/b:1tpi6v9q][/b]

    #5648
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:tyztg9oo]
    He was finished Cleansing believers with what He did on the cross. That part of His time here, that he did finish,
    [u:tyztg9oo]then[/u:tyztg9oo] He had to prove that death had no power over Him. No, Alla, no Budda, etc etc.,,, none of these ever came back to life. [/quote:tyztg9oo]

    First you said He did it to:

    [b:tyztg9oo]Defeat the death penalty for sin[/b:tyztg9oo]

    Now your saying:

    [b:tyztg9oo]He had to prove that death had no power over Him[/b:tyztg9oo]

    Which is it?

    ~Victor

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