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Jon look at what you said-
[quote:2dxw2hi2]We became separated from God through the sin of Adam and the only sacrifice that was great enough to please God was for God himself to become human flesh and die[/quote:2dxw2hi2].
you have this absolutely correct if you’d stop here but then your church goes into that this means Sacraments and all of the rest of their teachings that men forget what Jesus did in an effort to get their own salvation by what they do. Jesus is about grace not works!
Don’t you see that despite your words above, you live differently and we know what Scriptures says about that in 1 John 1:6
[b:2dxw2hi2][color=red:2dxw2hi2] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:[/color:2dxw2hi2][/b:2dxw2hi2][quote:17a1q2e3]Jesus is about grace not works![/quote:17a1q2e3]
No, Paul was about grace…Jesus was about the condition of the heart and how people loved God and loved their neighbor (how he summarizes the 10 Commandments).[quote:17a1q2e3]Don’t you see that despite your words above, you live differently and we know what Scriptures says about that in 1 John 1:6
[b:17a1q2e3][color=red:17a1q2e3] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:[/color:17a1q2e3][/b:17a1q2e3][/quote:17a1q2e3]
No, despite my words above I don’t live differently than that. Quite contrarily it is your words that are different. You focus only on one aspect…one piece of the puzzle. That is an incomplete view of salvation.And…
[b:17a1q2e3]Matthew 7:17-21[/b:17a1q2e3]
[color=red:17a1q2e3][b:17a1q2e3]”Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”[/b:17a1q2e3][/color:17a1q2e3]Stop taking Scripture out of context.
Your verses prove nothing against what I said. Salvation IS dependent upon faith + works as plainly stated in the Bible. It is Jesus’ work and the fruit we bear.
Jon writes:
Quote:Ron wrote:
Jesus is about grace not works!No, Paul was about grace…Jesus was about the condition of the heart and how people loved God and loved their neighbor (how he summarizes the 10 Commandments). [/quote
Oh Really Jon:
]
Acts 15:11-But we believe [b:bxh71rrd]that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ [/b:bxh71rrd]we shall be saved, even as they.Acts 20:24- But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, [b:bxh71rrd]to testify the gospel of the grace of God. [/b:bxh71rrd]
Acts 20:32- And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of[b:bxh71rrd] his grace[/b:bxh71rrd], which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. (KJV)
Rom 3:24 – Being justified freely by[b:bxh71rrd] his grace [/b:bxh71rrd]through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (KJV)
Eph 2:5 – Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ[b:bxh71rrd], (by grace ye are saved;) [/b:bxh71rrd]
Rom 5:15 – But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much[b:bxh71rrd] more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, [/b:bxh71rrd]hath abounded unto many.
Heck I could continue forever on HIS grace, not Paul’s !!!!!!!!!!!
Where do you come up with that answer Jon?
[quote:1sq9lglx]Heck I could continue forever on HIS grace, not Paul’s !!!!!!!!!!!
Where do you come up with that answer Jon?[/quote:1sq9lglx]
The letters of Paul mention grace quite frequently, but I do not believe Jesus refers to grace very much, if at all, in any of the Gospels.I’m not denying grace, just saying it’s not something Jesus focused on.
Jon writes:
[quote:2dhbdzui]Ron wrote:
Heck I could continue forever on HIS grace, not Paul’s !!!!!!!!!!!Where do you come up with that answer Jon?
The letters of Paul mention grace quite frequently, but I do not believe Jesus refers to grace very much, if at all, in any of the Gospels.
I’m not denying grace, just saying it’s not something Jesus focused on [/quote:2dhbdzui]
well is Paul more important then Jesus?
look at Acts 20:24 – But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, [color=red:2dhbdzui]to testify the gospel of the grace of God. [/color:2dhbdzui]
That might explain why you don’t see this either!
[color=red:2dhbdzui][b:2dhbdzui]It is all about being saved by God’s grace![/b:2dhbdzui][/color:2dhbdzui]Ephesians 2:8+9 – For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ron,In all of you post’s about purgatory you never said what denomination(if any)you are affilated with(curious).I known allot of “heat merchant’s in my day and some just like to argue over anything.Hope to see you in heaven someday unless you are redirected to purgatory first.
Weather, you said:
[quote:2o4awgyf]
Ron,In all of you post’s about purgatory you never said what denomination(if any)you are affilated with(curious).I known allot of “heat merchant’s in my day and some just like to argue over anything.Hope to see you in heaven someday unless you are redirected to purgatory first. [/quote:2o4awgyf]I don’t push which church I attend because I know of many “denominations” that follow Jesus’ teachings and I also am aware of how the Catholic Church does “answers” to any other religion and I don’t want it to come down to a “My Church” vs. Catholicism. It comes down to following Jesus and His word, which you know how I strongly feel Catholicism does NOT. BTW – you won’t see me in a place that isn’t there. If you want more of how I feel -here is my website –
http://www.freewebs.com/gospellightmin/
everyone is welcome to make comments if they wish
as a catholic i beleive this is a purgatory even when Virgin Mary appeared to people she told them there is a purgatory. Purgatory is when your not bad but you still have some sins to pay off cause you are not cleaned to go to heaven and yet your sins aren’t bad to enter hell so after you paid your debt in purgatory you go to heaven. if your a catholic you have to beleive there a purgatory if not then your not a true catholic.
The Final Purification, or Purgatory
All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.
Hey Weather, I’ve good news for you about your response, There is no Purgatory. I’ll explain it for you. You wrote:
[quote:1ieap428]
All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.[/quote:1ieap428]If they’re not cleansed by this time, they won’t be going to Heaven, We only go around once and then Scripture tells us in Hebrews 9:27, – “[color=red:1ieap428]And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” [/color:1ieap428] You continue:
[quote:1ieap428]The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: [/quote:1ieap428]
I have a couple “small” problems with this [u:1ieap428][b:1ieap428]1 [/b:1ieap428][/u:1ieap428]The Church? I think you mean Your church not THE Church [u:1ieap428][b:1ieap428] 2[/b:1ieap428][/u:1ieap428] [i:1ieap428]by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[/i:1ieap428] but Scrpiture no where talks about Purgatory, [b:1ieap428][color=red:1ieap428]NO WHERE[/color:1ieap428] 1 Corinthians 3 if you read this, its about one’s works that are examined not the person- Besides fire doesn’t remove sin, The Bible tells us that Jesus’ Blood does that – Hebrews 9:22 –[i:1ieap428] And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (KJV)[/i:1ieap428][/b:1ieap428]
You continued:
[quote:1ieap428]
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [/quote:1ieap428]But it doesn’t tell us that, you just imply that it tells us this. It could mean if your sins aren’t forgiven here, they won’t get forgiven because of Hebrews 9:27 (top paragraph)
You go on with:
[quote:1ieap428]
This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: [/quote:1ieap428]Not so fast, Maccabeus is not part of Scriptuures. Your church added it somewhere around 1578??? or about the time of the reformation. furthermore the Church of Scriptures does not offer anything for them, Maybe [i:1ieap428]your denomination [/i:1ieap428]does try to buy or talk someone into Heaven, but “the” Church doesn’t.
[quote:1ieap428]
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them[/quote:1ieap428]Scriptures tells us not too because it won’t do anyone any good (see Hebrews 9:27 again ABOVE)
[quote:1ieap428]as a catholic i beleive this is a purgatory even when Virgin Mary appeared to people she told them there is a purgatory. Purgatory is when your not bad but you still have some sins to pay off cause you are not cleaned to go to heaven and yet your sins aren’t bad to enter hell so after you paid your debt in purgatory you go to heaven. if your a catholic you have to beleive there a purgatory if not then your not a true catholic.[/quote:1ieap428]
Revelation 21:27 says no sins get you into Heaven
As for this [u:1ieap428][i:1ieap428]your not bad but you still have some sins to pay off cause you are not cleaned to go to heaven and yet your sins aren’t bad to enter hell [/i:1ieap428][/u:1ieap428]Scripture tells us that there is no one righteous, no not one (Romans 3:10-23) James 2:10 – [color=red:1ieap428][i:1ieap428]If you commit one sin you are guilty of all[/i:1ieap428][/color:1ieap428] so what is this “venial” stuff??? Please don’t go to 1 John 5:16-17 because that isn’t what your church claims it means anyway!
You can read more about No purgatory at my web page …..
Have a good day Weather
Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification.[color=red:2y2x9dc5] It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine.[/color:2y2x9dc5] As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.
Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular “place” in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.
Weather says;
[quote:kzk2hxf2]Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning [/quote:kzk2hxf2]
No way, pal It happens to be what they want you to think so you don’t upset some one perhaps just as most cults are, but it is not part of Christianity, (Believers in the the Biblical Jesus) and never will be.
[quote:kzk2hxf2]Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular “place” in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.
[/quote:kzk2hxf2]Is this how they explain Pugatory Now? When I was in Grade School (a Catholic one) it was a Place of temporary burning for your sins to be purged. That is part of the problem of telling myths – trying to keep the facts believable….. and idulgences…. where one could pray or (pay) to get a loved one out…. But Weather that isn’t Biblical either. Why? Because Jesus took my sins to the cross nearly 2000 years ago.
Seems like one would wonder how they can Pray to get someone out early but they don’t think that the Creator of everthing did enough with His Death ????
For more about how it really is, check my article #26- Purgatory
[color=red:kzk2hxf2][b:kzk2hxf2]http://www.freewebs.com/gospellightmin/articles.htm[/b:kzk2hxf2][/color:kzk2hxf2]
While you are there, check out the rest of my websitem
it can’t hurt you and you’ll learn how one gets saved on my home page as well.
Who wants me to think?? Why do you think your right,prove it in scriptures (only thing I believe)not your personal ideas.
WEATHER writes:
[quote:1uqewoc2]Who wants me to think?? Why do you think your right,prove it in scriptures (only thing I believe)not your personal ideas [/quote:1uqewoc2]
My articles are my thoughts and based upon Scriptures. They are pretty clear and self explanitory, If you are looking for the Truth!
Perhaps you should start thinking, It might help if you would.
Ron, there’s no need to promote your website in every single post. Just put a link in your signature or something.
You’ve promoted it enough and I will be deleting future references to it. It seems like nothing more than spam.
Although the word “purgatory” is not mentioned in the Bible, the reality of purgatory is clearly mentioned there. The words “Trinity” and “incarnation” and “Bible” are not mentioned in the Bible, but these realities are revealed there. Jesus speaks of sins to be forgiven in the life to come (Matthew 12:23). Saint Paul speaks of those saved in the next life “through fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15). Saint Peter speaks of the “spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3:18-20) and of the Gospel “preached to the dead” (1 Peter 4:6). The Bible explicitly tells us to pray for the dead (2 Maccabees 12:44-46). Besides being found in Sacred Tradition, which explicitly affirms the existence of purgatory, it is clearly that the doctrine of it existence is also found in Sacred Scripture.
Roman Catholicism has taught to pray for people who died before us. The Old Testament even has alms and prayers for those who died. A person that dies most likely will spend some time in purgatory. The length of time depends on what God deems fair.
What is Purgatory?Purgatory is a place where souls become perfected. Since God is perfect, souls should be in a clean state before being physically with God. Luckily, unlike Hell, purgatory is not eternal. The length of time spent in purgatory is individualized, but we will be with God when we’re finished.
Purgatory may be as long as centuries in the case of the more guilty souls, or of those who, being excluded from the Catholic communion, are deprived of the suffrages of the Church, although by the divine mercy they have escaped Hell.
Catholic Prayer
Free information and resources about catholic prayer
prayer.big.com
If you read about Mary in Fatima, she was asked if an 18 year old girl was in Heaven – Mary said she would be in purgatory until the end of time.
When we’re alive, we can change our fate. By prayers, especially the Rosary, being good, receiving the Eucharist, and helping others we can probably reduce our time in purgatory. It all comes down to how pure our soul is.At the end of the world, purgatory also ends. God will reconcile His justice in the purification of the last members of humankind. Then God will make His final judgement of Heaven or Hell. This judgement will be permanent.
Prayers and Sacrifices
People who are alive have a huge responsibility. We need to pray for people who are in purgatory that they can be released soon into Heaven. We don’t want anyone to suffer. A soul cannot do anything to release themselves from purgatory. They do not have a body. Only those who are alive has the ability to pray for the dead.
Along with prayer, we can fast and dedicate our Eucharist to the dead. All these things are very important and will allow souls enter the kingdom of God sooner than expected.
Indulgences
The Catholic Church has something called indulgences. It’s very difficult to get a full indulgence, but we can get partial ones. This helps clear our souls.
A partial indulgence can be obtained by devoutly visiting a cemetery and praying for the departed, even if the prayer is only mental. One can gain a plenary indulgence visiting a cemetery each day between November 1 and November 8. These indulgences are applicable only to the Souls in Purgatory.
A plenary indulgence, again applicable only the Souls in Purgatory, is also granted when the faithful piously visit a church or a public oratory on November 2. In visiting the church or oratory, it is required, that one Our Father and the Creed be recited.
A partial indulgence, applicable only to the souls in purgatory, can be obtained when the Eternal Rest (Requiem aeternam) is prayed. This is a good prayer to recite especially during the month of November:
Eternal rest grant to them, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them. May the souls of the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.
There is no such thing as Purgatory! If you believe in Purgatory then you don’t believe in what Jesus did on the cross! It is that plain. read this if you need help understanding this.
http://www.angelfire.com/crazy3/glm/article26.shtml
[color=darkred:3tc3850i]Ron, you are further evidence to me that religion completely affects a person’s psychological state.[/color:3tc3850i]
Ron apparently has still not learned what I have mentioned several times: purgatory is an application of the merits of Christ’s sacrifice.
He refuses to acknowledge this because his entire problem with purgatory rests on incorrect soteriology stemming from poor exegesis of numerous Bible passages.
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