October 25, 2006 at 5:53 pm #7200AnonymousInactive
[color=darkred:2cyaencp]Wouldn’t Hell be Justice?
If so, then isn’t Justice part of Love?[/color:2cyaencp]October 25, 2006 at 6:29 pm #7201AnonymousInactive
[quote:34jdoc3l][color=darkred:34jdoc3l]Wouldn’t Hell be Justice?
If so, then isn’t Justice part of Love?[/color:34jdoc3l][/quote:34jdoc3l]
?? No one said justice and love don’t overlap, that is what YOU seemed to say, claiming they were in conflict…October 25, 2006 at 7:40 pm #7202
Going to Hell is a just punishment for those who choose against God.
Victor, why don’t we have you define justice and that may help the conversation.October 26, 2006 at 9:27 pm #7205AnonymousInactive
[quote:1q9vveq5][quote:1q9vveq5][color=darkred:1q9vveq5]Wouldn’t Hell be Justice?
If so, then isn’t Justice part of Love?[/color:1q9vveq5][/quote:1q9vveq5]
?? No one said justice and love don’t overlap, that is what YOU seemed to say, claiming they were in conflict…[/quote:1q9vveq5]
[color=darkred:1q9vveq5]Actually that is what YOU SAID. Scroll back and tell me where I used the word “conflict”. That was the prefered word YOU used, not me. I simply said that Love as we feel it, can get trumped by justice. Which is part of love.[/color:1q9vveq5]October 26, 2006 at 9:32 pm #7206AnonymousInactive
[quote:c3emep9i]Going to Hell is a just punishment for those who choose against God.
Victor, why don’t we have you define justice and that may help the conversation.[/quote:c3emep9i]
[color=darkred:c3emep9i]My definition would be right in line with the Cathecism.[/color:c3emep9i]
[color=green:c3emep9i]1807 Justice is the moral virtue that consists in the constant and firm will to give their due to God and neighbor. Justice toward God is called the “virtue of religion.” [/color:c3emep9i]
[color=darkred:c3emep9i]So it is clear to me that justice is conditional. Albeit part of love, it requires something of individuals. Something Love doesn’t. Because of this reality, it does trump Love in my opinion.[/color:c3emep9i]October 26, 2006 at 10:01 pm #7208
It’s can’t trump love, it is contingent on love. There has to be love in order for there to be justice.October 26, 2006 at 10:07 pm #7210AnonymousInactive
[quote:24f3ztav]It’s can’t trump love, it is contingent on love. There has to be love in order for there to be justice.[/quote:24f3ztav]
[color=darkred:24f3ztav]That is perhaps where I struggle. If this is true in an eternal sense, then it should be easy to explain this concept in conjunction to Hell. But it isn’t. Hell, has no Love, but it is the result of Justice, no?[/color:24f3ztav]October 26, 2006 at 10:18 pm #7211
Ok, try this…
God loves us so much that he created us and if WE choose to love him in return he has a place for us full go his love and we spend eternity with him. However, if WE choose not to love God then we do not get to spend eternity with him since WE made that choice.
A just reward for the person who loves God is to spend eternal life with him, and a just punishment for the person that does not love God is to spend eternal life without him.
We make the choice though, not God. Gives gives us the opportunity to choose him or not him. And we justly receive either a reward or punishment for our choice.
God doesn’t want us to go to hell. It is his will that we join him in heaven. That’s why he created us…to share all his glory with us. But he lets us choose him so that it is a true, free love, rather than a bunch of robots.
It probably pains God to have people go to hell, but that is their just reward for not wanting to be with God. He loves us so much that he lets us go if we want or he lets us come to him.
It is justice and love. God created a place for people to go who choose not to love him, albeit not a very nice one, but it’s what’s deserved of the people who go there.
That is how I would explain it.October 26, 2006 at 10:46 pm #7213AnonymousInactive
[color=darkred:1yl36xav]That’s exactly how I have understood it. But ponder over this. You can’t really say love doesn’t exist in hell. What we can say is that “love toward God” doesn’t exist. People are in hell because they choose to love something outside of God’s Will. If you choose this then you are too cold for God’s Love and just right for your love of __________. Albeit it is an imperfect and false love, but really irrelavent to the person who feels it.
That make sense?[/color:1yl36xav]October 26, 2006 at 11:07 pm #7217
Hell is the complete absence of God therefore it is completely absent of love. It’s in the Catechism.
A love for self is not truly love since love comes from God. It’s lust.October 26, 2006 at 11:40 pm #7222AnonymousInactive
[color=green:j3z3levi]If they love something outside of God’s will, and are in hell, then it would be a [b:j3z3levi]wrong[/b:j3z3levi] kind of love that they have. So they can have all the wrong kind of love they want in hell, that’s the reason for them being there anyways besides just not believing in him at all. [/color:j3z3levi]October 27, 2006 at 4:22 pm #7233AnonymousInactive
[color=darkred:25k4ig9g]Thanks everybody. I hope you all see that it’s discussions like this that helped propel development and clarity in the Church. We are fortunate enough to have much of what we believe already duked out and clarified.[/color:25k4ig9g]October 27, 2006 at 4:51 pm #7236
No, no, no Victor. You can’t just end it like this without convincing us we’ve changed your opinion. ” title=”Very Happy” />October 27, 2006 at 7:18 pm #7243AnonymousInactive
[color=darkred:bxkr21ds]Huh? Read what you typed again. I know what you mean, but I don’t think you expressed it correctly.
Why would I want to convince you of my changed opinion? ” title=”Razz” />
I suppose I was unable to articulate it properly and I already knew that Justice and Love flow from God. But I was unsure how that applied to Hell. If there is no love in Hell, but it is a result of Justice, then it just seemed to me that the quality of Justice supercedes that of Love as we know it. Otherwise, Love would win out and everybody would go to heaven.[/color:bxkr21ds]October 27, 2006 at 7:24 pm #7245
If nobody had free will and God created robots that “loved” him then yes everyone would go to heaven. Again God desires heaven for all, but we choose our final destiny.October 27, 2006 at 7:28 pm #7247AnonymousInactive
[quote:3sjw5pu3]If nobody had free will and God created robots that “loved” him then yes everyone would go to heaven. Again God desires heaven for all, but we choose our final destiny.[/quote:3sjw5pu3]
Goodness sake Jon, I already know this man. I was just trying to ponder over justice and love….
I’ll go bore someone else… [/color:3sjw5pu3]October 27, 2006 at 7:32 pm #7248
Well, dude, I don’t get it. You seem to be saying the same thing over and over that people go to hell because God decides not to love them and must dispense justice instead when that’s not the way it works.
That’s my perception of what I see you saying.October 27, 2006 at 7:46 pm #7250AnonymousInactive
[quote:mxcrf2al]Well, dude, I don’t get it. You seem to be saying the same thing over and over [b:mxcrf2al]that people go to hell because God decides not to love them[/b:mxcrf2al] and must dispense justice instead when that’s not the way it works.
That’s my perception of what I see you saying.[/quote:mxcrf2al]
I never said or implied such a thing. In fact, I’m saying quite the opposite. Basically, the idea is that both the experience of heaven and the experience of hell are experiences of God’s eternal and inescapable love. God is the river of fire. If we love Him then we will experience heaven but if we hate and oppose Him (which we have the free will to do) then we will experience this love as burning fire rather than joy. [/color:mxcrf2al]October 27, 2006 at 7:51 pm #7251
[quote:28pogys6]but if we hate and oppose Him (which we have the free will to do) then we will experience this love as burning fire rather than joy.[/quote:28pogys6]
But no one experiences God’s love in hell. Hell is completely devoid of any love.October 27, 2006 at 8:07 pm #7252AnonymousInactive
[quote:3unm8ipt][quote:3unm8ipt]but if we hate and oppose Him (which we have the free will to do) then we will experience this love as burning fire rather than joy.[/quote:3unm8ipt]
But no one experiences God’s love in hell. Hell is completely devoid of any love.[/quote:3unm8ipt]
[color=darkred:3unm8ipt]You and I are basically repeating the same things.
It’s Friday! [/color:3unm8ipt]
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