Now this is how I understand it. I could be wrong, I think I was wrong once, but then again I could be mistaken about that….” title=”Very Happy” />

Well as Protestant Churches and sects are all founded by human beings, and not by God, as the Catholic Church was, (Look in the Bible, Jesus founds his Church on Peter, in other verses the Church we are told is founded on the Apostles, which does not contradict the supposition that it is founded on Peter, but simply supports the postion of the other Apostles as being sent by Jesus) So those organizations are not really in or out of communion, but the souls of the individuals are imperfectly connected to the Church.

As these Churches in a sense represent the members of their groups the Catholic Church deals with these groups, in the interest of the individual and corporate souls, and in an effort to bring them all to the fullness of the truth.

A formal heretic is someone who is already a Catholic, knows what the Church teaches as dogma, and goes beyond simply questioning, and denies the dogmatic teachings of the Church. All of us from time to time have doubts and questions, that is normal. Sometimes we don’t know what the Church teaches, and we have been duped by people who tell us something that is false about the Church, presenting it as Catholic teachings, leading people astray.

A good example of this is Ron, who used to come and bash here. He is the follower of an Anti-Catholic “minister” who’s entire focus is attacking the Catholic Church. He has published on his web-page many things that he says the Catholic Church teaches which it does not. Some Catholics who are not well schooled in the Faith believe what he says and have left the Church because of false information. While they have left communion with the Church and joined one or another Protestant sect, it is not because they denied what the Church teaches, but rather through their own ignorance have been misled about what the Church teaches.

The late Archbishop Sheen used to say, “In the United States there are a handful of people who hate what the Catholic Church teaches, and millions who hate what they think it teaches.”

Not everyone. People do so for various reasons, some because they don’t want anyone to tell them what the truth is, some are scandalized by what they see others do, some because of pride. Many forget that the Church is the remedy for sin, and while we should all be stiving for sainthood, we are not all there yet. However many do leave the Church because they are ignorant of what the Church really teaches, and fall easy prey to false charges against the Church. Ignorant is not a dirty word, it is just the reality that some people are either uneducated about some of the basics of their faith or the history of the Church let alone the world in general. I would not be offended if someone told me I was ignorant of Astrophysics. I’d agree that I’m ignorant of it.

Now the Church distinguishes between vincible and invincible ignorance. Vincible ignorance is when someone remains uneducated about the faith through their own laziness. Invincible ignorance is when someone is either so prejudiced against the faith, or lives in a place where the Gospel is not readily available and they cannot hear the truth.

Many Protestants say Aborigines in Africa, or a Muslim in Iraq will go to hell because he never accepted Christ. The Catholic Church teaches that if someone never had the chance to hear the truth, and accept it, God will judge him based on natural law, and what he knew. The Church still believes that the graces that lead to his salvation are won for us by Jesus Sacrifice on the Cross, and the Graces that are applied to us by the actions of Church, in the sacraments and good works, and prayers of the faithful. Some theologians think that at the judgement of the soul of the pagan or Muslim or Jew, he will be informed that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, and all that he needs to know to make a decision will be revealed to him, however that is not an official teaching of the Church but theological speculation. All we know is that we need to trust in God’s mercy.

Give an example of some of the teachings you are talking about. Also exolain what you understand the teachings to be,

Absolutely

[quote:1st73z37]Suppose that one thinks that saints are great role models but they shouldn’t be used to intercede for you when you pray to Christ.[/quote:1st73z37]
A Catholic does not need to use the saints to intercede for them, however when one has the option of having those close to God pray for us, why not use them? The fact is that Catholics believe that death does not exclude us from the Church, and that those who are alive and those who have passed from this life in God’s love constitute the Church, and those in heaven give Glory and Honor to God. Many who deny the intercession of the saints, also have an idea that the Church only exists here on earth.

[quote:1st73z37]Suppose a neighbor thinks that a rosary is an unnecessary form of prayer that only shows respect to Mary. (Keep in mind that this neighbor does believe that Catholics do not worship saints.)[/quote:1st73z37]
Again, the intercession of the saints including our Lady is not required, but then again, any friend of God’s is my friend too.

[quote:1st73z37]Suppose a friend told me that God doesn’t judge on what a person knows but by the faith he had in Christ.[/quote:1st73z37]
Would that friend also believe that a baby who died would not go to heaven because he or she did not make a “Choice for Christ” or that they did not have faith because they had yet to “accept Jesus”?

[quote:1st73z37]Suppose another friend told me that Catholics put too much emphasis on good works and that because of our sinful nature, we cannot complete a “bridge” to Christ. Therefore, we cannot totally base salvation on works alone.[/quote:1st73z37]
That friend would show by a statement that salvation is based on works alone does not understand what the Church teaches about Faith in Christ, and how works are not the sole basis for our salvation. They misrepresent the teachings of the Catholic Church on works.

[quote:1st73z37]Suppose one thought that because Luther and other Protestant reformers were considered heretics that if they did go to Rome to be tried of their doctrines, they would be given an unfair and biased judgement, then they would be executed.[/quote:1st73z37]
We will never know the answer because Luther and the others did not accept the offer of safe conduct. However if someone is going to propose some sort of conspiracy against Luther by the Catholic Church, he would also have to deny the historical fact that when Luther and Eck debated, and at other times and places in Germany, the big bad Catholic Church could have grabbed, imprisoned and killed Luther. The Council of Trent was not the only time he was summoned to defend his position, it is simply the highest ecclesiastical gathering that he was invited to. When he debated Eck, most historians would say that Eck won the debate, and Luther not having any reply made his famous, “Here I stand, I can do no other” statement.

Luther was used as a pawn by many German Princes, as they had much to gain in the area of power, and in taking the lands and posessions of the Church if the Church could be removed from power. The same thing happened in England after King Henry VIII supressed the Monastic orders and disbanded the convents. The secular power gained power, and when they destroyed and sacked the lands of the Monastaries started abusing the peasants who had been protected by the monks, taught by the monks, and had been treated for medical conditions by the monks. After the Monastic houses where supressed, elementary education became unreachable to the poor.

As for other Protestant Leaders… There was little unity among them. Calvin and Luther wrote horrible things about each other, and used rather base words when they condemned each other. In Calvin’s Geneva, people where executed who publically disagreed with him while he was in power.

[quote:1st73z37]Suppose that friends told me that the Pope is not the Anti-Christ but rather it is his position as pope that is. Since Catholics believe scripturally that Christ gave Peter power, and the pope is “infallible”, these friends said that the pope (position, not person,) somewhat took over the position of Christ and therefore is the Anti-Christ[/quote:1st73z37]
My impression would be they don’t understand the limits of the Pope’s office, and have been poorly instructed on what the Papacy claims. I’d also ask them what I asked you to do before you posed these questions, and explain what their understanding of Papal Infallibility is, as I can’t read minds, and based on the previous questions, find their understanding of the Catholic Church to be lacking, as well as tainted by at least some paranoia about the extent of temporal power the Church has.

Thanks Jon, once again, you are an example of how as Catholics our Faith is both individual and communal. How we all support each other in faith, just as Jesus is our individual and common Saviour.

I made the assumption that your friend was asking from the point of view of many protestants that baptism is simply a symbol of ones faith, and had no effect on the soul.

Let’s say the child was not baptized. There is a concept (not a defined dogma of the Catholic Church) of Limbo. Limbo is a pious belief, that some theologians have proposed. In the concept of Limbo a child who dies before the age of reason, without baptism is granted perfect natural happiness. However there are other Catholic Theologians who say that the Child like a pagan or someone who had never been given the opportunity in life to know and accept Jesus is given the information about Jesus, and the plan of salvation and is then given the choice to accept or reject the truth.

Many Protestants say the only way to salvation is by accepting Jesus as ones Lord and Personal Savior. If you did not get the chance, (especially those who believe in absolute predestination) you go to Hell, no other options.

As Catholics we believe in God’s mercy, and that He will judge us based on what we know, not in an intellectual sense. but rather if we did not get a chance to hear the Gospel in this life, either we are informed of it before our Judgement, and make our determination then, or possibly we are judged based on natural law, (ie all societies believe stealing, murder and adultary are wrong).

We don’t use the term “heretic” anymore. It has a lot of negative connotations and really does nothing to promote and build unity among the Christian faithful. In today’s ecumenical climate, it’s just poor taste to call other people heretics.