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  • #4536

    [quote:2iba10ez]Because the fundamental right to life (open to procreate) outweighs the fundamental right to intimacy in a marriage.[/quote:2iba10ez]
    Without intimacy in marriage there is no life (technically).

    @Uncertaindrummer: yeah, I think that’s what I thought when the other guy originally posed the scenario to me.

    #4537
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:36qgqb6r]Without intimacy in marriage there is no life (technically).[/quote:36qgqb6r]

    True, but here are your options:

    1. You continue being intimate and risk that she may get pregnant and both she and the baby may die (for sure she will, the baby is questionable).
    2. You use contraceptives.
    3. You both make the decision to not be intimate due to the circumstance.

    Which one would you choose?

    ~Victor

    #4538
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I choose to be intimate like God intended, andlet God decide whether or not my wife/baby dies. If He wants them, He will get them. If He thinks thye still belong on Earth, they will.

    I think that’s the way a Catholic should think at least.

    P.S. I do NOT think it would be immoral at all to abstain, however.

    #4539
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Uncertaindrummer, wouldn’t that be kinda like putting God in a position where He has to choose. Kinda when satan asked him to jump off a building? He didn’t take to kindly to that. Is this any different?
    Technically he can CHOOSE at any moment in time to end a life. Would it be any different if I wanted to committ suicide, and said “if he wants me to live, then he will stop me or cause something to happen”. The point being is that God doesn’t like us to put Him on the spot. Just like satan did on top of the building.

    ~Victor

    #4542
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    True, but we aren’t. We aren’t telling Him to pick and give us a big green or red light. Jus doing what He TOLD us to do. As long as the act is inherantly good, it can’t be evil unless you intend for some evil to come out of it. The more I argue in favor of this, the more I convince myself.

    I’m not against other viewpoints per se, this one just makes the most sense. Does anyone on here know the Pope? We need to ask him, lol

    #4553
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:19brt6yg]True, but we aren’t. We aren’t telling Him to pick and give us a big green or red light.[/quote:19brt6yg]

    Your choice to continue to be intimate would do exactly that Uncertaindrummer. You said:

    [quote:19brt6yg]I choose to be intimate like God intended, andlet God decide whether or not my wife/baby dies. If He wants them, He will get them. If He thinks thye still belong on Earth, they will. [/quote:19brt6yg]

    Is that not telling God to pick?

    [quote:19brt6yg]Jus doing what He TOLD us to do. As long as the act is inherantly good, it can’t be evil unless you intend for some evil to come out of it. The more I argue in favor of this, the more I convince myself.[/quote:19brt6yg]

    Of course God wants a man and women to be intimate. It’s one of the greatest gifts given to us. But that doesn’t mean he “TOLD” you to continue regardless of the consequences. A situation can change your decision. A good example is God telling us that lying is wrong. Although true, certain situations can justify a lie. Like telling the Gestapo that there are no Jews in your house. Would you lie to save a life? Or would you not lie because God TOLD you not to? See my point?

    ~Victor

    #4555
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Look, I’m not saying there aren’t exceptions. I’m jsut saying I don’t believe THIS one to be an exception.

    I would add, however, that the wife would certainly have the final say! lol. Also, I am certainly not AGAINST believing it would be wrong to have intercourse, I just don’t feel it is. However, if the teaching of the Church is that it WOULD be wrong, I would change my opinion and fully support that.

    Speaking of which, hasn’t anyone checked this in the Cathechism? I don’t have on on hand at the moment but I am going to see what I can find later…

    #4556
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Not sure if this situation per se is in the Cathecism. But I did have a very similar convo with Tim Staples. He is the one that helped me come to this conclusion. Sorry if I upset you man. Wasn’t trying to do that. Your comment of:

    [quote:1vp5qola]However, if the teaching of the Church is that it WOULD be wrong, I would change my opinion and fully support that.[/quote:1vp5qola]

    That is good enough for me. <img loading=” title=”Wink” />

    By the way my statement was based on my understanding of what the Church would say about this particular situation. My opinions and feelings may sway me in a different direction. That is why it’s so wonderful to be catholic!!! Cause if we disagree we can always say “what does the Church teach?” You gotta love that.

    ~Victor

    #4557

    Need a catechism <img loading=:” title=”Question” /> : http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/ca … /index.cfm

    #4558
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    [quote:42sq6s99]Not sure if this situation per se is in the Cathecism. But I did have a very similar convo with Tim Staples. He is the one that helped me come to this conclusion. Sorry if I upset you man. Wasn’t trying to do that. Your comment of:

    [quote:42sq6s99]However, if the teaching of the Church is that it WOULD be wrong, I would change my opinion and fully support that.[/quote:42sq6s99]

    That is good enough for me. <img loading=” title=”Wink” />

    By the way my statement was based on my understanding of what the Church would say about this particular situation. My opinions and feelings may sway me in a different direction. That is why it’s so wonderful to be catholic!!! Cause if we disagree we can always say “what does the Church teach?” You gotta love that.

    ~Victor[/quote:42sq6s99]

    Yes, indeed. That’s why Catholicism is so dang rocking. (Oh, yeah, and the whole “one, holy, catholic, apostolic” thing is kinda nice as well, lol)

    By the way Jon, that cathechism site is AWESOME.

    Also, I think I might have changed my opinion on this matter. I know that if you are doing something NOT inherently evil, but which may cause evil as an unwanted side effect, it IS alright as long as the good coming from the action outweighs the unwanted evil. I am THINKING that the death of the wife PROBABLY outweighs the good of intamacy, but I am not quite convinced yet.

    And when I said that it was God’s decision, I didn’t mean it in the same way as “jump off a cliff and see if He sends angels to save you”, I meant more in the USUAL context in which its spoken about with regards to sexuality. The Church teaches it is God’s will whether or not a child is conceived by the intercourse (which of course it is), which is why contraceptives are wrong, because they take God out of it. I was thinking along those same lines, although I do believe my analogy may be somewhat flawed.

    I still think someone should just call up Benedict, lol

    P.S. Did I seem upset in some of my post(s)? I most certainly wasn’t… I have greatly enjoyed this discussion. That is the fourth time in two weeks someone on a message board has told me I sound upset when I am not… What do I DO exactly…

    #4559
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Well I have to say, after thinking about this even more, my position is even stronger in the “it’s okay” column. Why?

    First, there is NO disease (I checked this) that makes a pregnancy %100 fatal for a woman. So there is ALWAYS the possibility of her surviving. Second, the chances of the intercourse resulting in a pregnancy are (as ALWAYS) somewhat low, usually lower than %15. So it is not like its CERTAIN that she will die. it is actually a PROBABILITY that she will not get pregnant, and even if she does, it is a possiblity that she will survive.

    At the VERY LEAST, one could use NFP to engage in intimacy. I am %99 sure about that, because in serious cases, the Church definitely allows the use of NFP, and I would DEFINITELY say this is a serious case!

    But I reiterate, this is my opinion [i:2azrtjf6]based on what I believe the Church teaches[/i:2azrtjf6], so if the Church were to teach otherwise, I would readily agree, although I am becoming convinced the Church would not teach otherwise. Still not positive though. (although I am DANG near positive about the NFP thing…)

    #4567
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Well now that the details changed I may take a turn on my stance. <img loading=” title=”Wink” />
    Although I was kinda taking Jon’s situation as a theoretical. Assuming death was inevitable for the wife and the life of the baby was uncertain (depending on how far into the pregnancy she was). But what you are saying is different. First I would like to know what is the actual percentage if its not 100%? Because if it’s something like 80% my stance stays the same. Uncertaindrummer, you certainly made the situation even more difficult now. I need to ponder over this a bit more.

    ~Victor

    #4571
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Well what about NFP? Do you at least think the couple could use NFP? I am almost certain of that.

    #4573
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I probably would, but I would seek advice from a priest, apologists, etc. before I did. Just to make sure. Cause everybody’s situation may be a bit different.

    ~Victor

    #4580

    [quote:3ek2xt2m]Well what about NFP? Do you at least think the couple could use NFP? I am almost certain of that.[/quote:3ek2xt2m]
    Yes, I meant to say this a couple days ago. The couple could do NFP the ultra-cautious way. (yes, for those who do not know there are varying degrees of cautiousness in NFP)

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