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    what did the fish sign mean for the early church?

    could the use of the fish sign also be used as a counter argument for those who accuse us of idolatry?

    did the early church also use statues? what’s the oldest evidence of it?

    where can i find proof that the early church venerated and prayed to our Blessed Mother?(other than the sub tuum praesidium)



    The Greek word for Fish, (Ichthos) are also the first letters of the words, “Jesus Christ God and Savior” Some people Translate the letters to mean “Jesus Christ, God’s Son, Savior” It along with anchors for hope, and a sign of the cross, (The cross was not used early on as it was a symbol of very bad criminals.) Gardens, feasts etc were used to show the great teachings or mysteries of the Church.

    I’ll have to re-read, I know that when the Church was made legal, and given basilcias, the statues that had been in the buildings were renamed, and became representations of Christ, our Lady and Saints. I don’t know about prior to the freedom of the Church.

    There are any number of graffiti at the graves of Saints, from the first second and third centuries asking for their prayers. As well as some frescos (wall paintings) depicting our Lady with the infant Jesus.


    thank you, i’ll be waiting for your next post


    First, most Protestants will tell you, “God has forbidden the use of images in worship” (281). Yet if people were to “search the scriptures” (cf. John 5:39), they would find the opposite is true.

    God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statutes. Instead, he actually commaded the religious use of statues. Progestants forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18‚Äì20).

    David gave Solomon the plan “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan” (1 Chr. 28:18‚Äì19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was “by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all,” included statues of angels.

    Similarly Ezekiel 41:17‚Äì18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, “On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.”

    During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to “make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8‚Äì9).

    One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

    Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

    Early in its history, Israel was forbidden to make any depictions of God because he had not revealed himself in a visible form. Given the pagan culture surrounding them, the Israelites might have been tempted to worship God in the form of an animal or some natural object (e.g., a bull or the sun).

    But later God did reveal himself under visible forms, such as in Daniel 7:9: “As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was Ancient of Days took his seat; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire.” Protestants make depictions of the Father under this form when they do illustrations of Old Testament prophecies.

    The Holy Spirit revealed himself under at least two visible forms that of a dove, at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32), and as tongues of fire, on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4). Protestants use these images when drawing or painting these biblical episodes and when they wear Holy Spirit lapel pins or place dove emblems on their cars.

    More later on when and how the Catholic Church started the use of images, Carved and Painted


    thanks a lot,
    but how about extra biblical or archaelogical proofs that suggest that the Jews had statues other than the ones in the bible?
    are there any?


    The only statues I’ve read about in Archeology magazines are those of local Pagan gods, who some Israelites included in their private homes as “extra protection” or in order to keep up with the pagan neighbors. There have also been some non-religious artwork that those who take a strict interpretation of the Bible thought were forbidden, but apparently did not get the same interpretation as many Modern Protestants interpret the Bible.

    I’ll add it to my list of things I need to poke around in books, and magazines for.


    many non catholics say that we catholics here in the Philippines go too far when venerating images just because in every feast of Jesus nazareno in Quiapo Manila, many devotees would go to extremes just to get their hold on the statue…

    but even the jews look like their worshipping a box whenever they worship God in front of the ark, right?

    stubborn proties just dont want to stop <img decoding=” title=”Sad” />


    i think they’re even saying that this practice is worse than the jews worshipping the bronze serpent, but we all know that deep inside we’re NOT worshipping the statue…

    so are the Jews who worshipped the serpent really that “intellectually challenged” to believe that the serpent was God Himself? (sorry if the words look insulting)

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