Home Forums Everything Else Scriptures OR Your Catechism? Reply To: Scriptures OR Your Catechism?


Let’s start with what a Catechism is and is not… It is not a full or total explanation of what the dogmas of the Church are, it is as it where a Readers Digest statement of the Faith. As an example your snipped CCC on the Sacraments. The portion of the Catechism that you posted does not cover the means by which we obtain the graces that come to us through the sacraments, which as an external sign of the internal graces that work within our souls which is and always has been based on the Merits of Christ Jesus. It is Christ who works through the Sacraments, not the simple workings of the Rite or the minister of the rite. The term used in Sacramental Theology is [i:361fjh1o]Ex Opere Operato[/i:361fjh1o]; It refers to the idea that the sacraments actually confer grace when the sacramental sign is validly effected, not as the result of the good standing of the minister*, or activity on the part of the recipient, but by the power and promise of God.

According to the Roman Catholic Church, to receive the fruits of the sacraments requires one to be properly disposed. This means reception of grace via the sacraments is not automatic. There must be, at least in the case of an adult, a predispositional receptivity to receive the grace which is always available in a validly effected sacrament.

The ex opere operato nature of the sacraments affirms that while a proper disposition is a necessary precondition to receiving grace in those sacraments, it is not the cause of the grace. What God offers in the sacraments, Catholics argue, is purely a free gift. Not even a person’s own dispositions, as good as they may be, produce God’s supernatural life in that person.

So you can see the danger of making a selective quote from one source which is a simple tool to cover the main point but not a comprehensive tool that explains the entire point. As a subject like the Sacraments and the grace they confer is a rather large one, the Catechism much like Cliff Notes are a means of expressing some of the main points of a subject and not an exasutive means of expressing them. The Catechism should properly be used as a starting point for study of the Scriptures and the Teachings of the Church handed down to us from the Apostles. One of the fallicies of your arguments is that you like the old tale of the blind men who are asked to describe the elephant only look at one minute point taken out of context and do not look at the entire point. (I’ve got a funny story I heard last night at a St. Patricks day dinner but I’ll post it elsewhere.)

[quote:361fjh1o]Not very accurate on Armstrong’s part – that’s just me being honest – and thats what you wanted[/quote:361fjh1o]

Honest… I’ll take you on your word that you are trying to be honest. The fact is that most Anti-Catholics have not been trained in how to look at the Catholic Church honestly or comprehensivly, by taking a part and not the whole of each book as you are doing, what you do at best is abridge Chrisitanity to fit the narrowly edited Protestant view. But as you have opened the subject by your selective line of questions, here are some more questions for you. As for the original questions, look through the past postings where you can still find them.

Rather than distort and misquote without citation from Catholic sources, I’d ask you to define what you say the Catholic Church teaches on the following. Mind you not your opinion of the subject, but what the Catholic Church teaches.

1. Papal infallibility, and the role of the papacy (for the most part I have done this for you in reply to another poster)
2. The Sacraments are a means of grace, how do they derive that grace?(woops, partially answered that one too, but I’d still ask you to flesh out the subject, take it up from where I have left off)
3. What is the Mass?
4. What is Justification?
5. What is an indulgence? What is it’s history
6. What do an Imprimater and Nihil Obstat mean
Lastly, and not from a Catholic point of view tell us oh infallible one the answer to this….
7. Based on Sola Scriptura Arianism can be defended nowhere in the Bible does the word Trinity come up, using Sola Scriptura defend the Trinity, and the proposition that Christ Jesus is True God and True Man.

Once again, you tell us what the Catholic Church teaches, like an elementary school math test show your work, that is if you quote someone (remember not to cut and paste from Catholic sources as you tend to distort them) cite the source. This is not an invitation for you to beat with your bully stick Catholic Teachings, simply to define them as you understand them

[quote:361fjh1o]I do work for my living – besides you never liked my answers before, why rush now? [/quote:361fjh1o]

As for the ironic twist of your defending not answering quickly the questions, when you demand rapid answers to the rabid attacks you make, why are the standards different for you? I’ve yet to see you answer anything, simply dismiss anything a Catholic, (or even non-Catholic) source that anyone brings up as “Catholic Brainwashing” while you hammer away that your answer and your interpretation of the Scriptures, which contradict what was believed for the first fifteen hundred years after Christ founded His Church is what is now true. Once you have shown a good faith effort to debate in an honest manner, (I won’t hold my breath) I’ll answer to the best of my ability well thought out questions, not the same tripe you have either copied from other writers, or cut and pasted from other Anti-Catholic sources, (literary forensics at the most basic level reveals how non-creative your attacks are). After you answer the questions above, do yourself a favor, say a little prayer that God reveal to you answers to the books listed in the previous posts, go to a local library where you will not have to pay for them, and support Catholic causes, read them and give us your feedback. I for one would be willing to read an intelligent critique, point by point, not an arbitrary and isolated twisting of a single quote or section that you feel was not covered based on a webpage that only exibited a sampling of the books in question rather than the entire book.

*I have used the term minister here because the rite of baptism may be preformed by anyone, even a non-catholic who uses water and the words of baptism, (I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost) and be held valid. In the case of Marriage the two people, (given our modern age, I’ll spell that out as the man and woman) preform the sacrament on each other by taking their vows, the priest or deacon simply acts as a wittness for the Church and offers a blessing on the marriage, a prayer that they remain faithful and the marriage is fruitful. In cases where there is no priest or deacon as in times of war or far flung mission territories where the priest comes by infrequently the couple with wittnesses may marry without a priest present.