Reply To: No such place as purgatory

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Anonymous
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Mr. Weathers,

[quote:nhg2o8pr]What good are prayers for the dead? If a person is in heaven, he doesn’t need prayers, and if he is damned, then no amount of prayers will help him. [/quote:nhg2o8pr]

You answered with speculative remarks, not legitimate facts –
1 If sin still clings
2 Paul mentions this in 1 Cor. 3:13–15
3 Paul’s thought calls to mind ….. purgatory is when a soul is immersed into the fire of God’s love and lifted out of the residue of its imperfections.

Biblical answers –
1 if sin still clinges then they go to Hell for John 3:16 says – whosoever believes is saved. (Rev. 1:5 – washed in the Blood, Heb.10:14 – For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified, 1 Jn 1:7 –
and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. and more)
2 Notice these verses talk about our works “going through” and even that is “as if” not ourselves literally -our motives are judged.
3 – purely feelings, speculations not facts

[quote:nhg2o8pr]The only reason the Catholic Church invented this unbiblical idea of purgatory is to make money off the faithful who think that they can save their unrepentant deceased relatives by paying for Masses. [/quote:nhg2o8pr]

You mention
1 – it is apparent how silly this objection about “wealth” is.
2 – Purgatory is only for those who have repented and have died in God’s grace but still have some attachment to sin.

Biblical answers–
1 – today that may seem silly but five dollars in the middle ages would be huge enough to build St.Peters Basilica or whatever when everything was gathered
2 – We aren’t given that option after death – John 3:36 tells us if one believes they are saved, if not they aren’t!

[quote:nhg2o8pr]Weren’t prayers for the dead an invention of the medieval Church? [/quote:nhg2o8pr]

You answered:
1 – Prayers for the dead are not only older than the Middle Ages, they pre-date Christianity A – Judas Maccabes prayed for the dead
B – Jews have a prayer called the kaddish that is
offered for the purification of the deceased.

Biblical outlook – in neither example is the Bible extablishing doctrinal establishing any more then David’s adultery and murdering establish adultery and murder as acceptable. The facts of them doing it just are historical facts that they accured or are accuring even today by non-believers.

[quote:nhg2o8pr]The idea of souls needing prayers in purgatory seems so contrary to the gospel that no Bible-believing Christian could believe it. [/quote:nhg2o8pr]

You answered –
1 – three-quarters of all Christians believe it
2 – “I believe in Purgatory. . . . Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God ….

Biblical outlook –
1 – 3/4 of those who [b:nhg2o8pr][u:nhg2o8pr]claim[/u:nhg2o8pr][/b:nhg2o8pr] to be Christians perhaps, but not actual Christians – big difference
2 – again you are making human “feelings” and speculation, instead of going by the only area that Matters – by “What does God’s word say?”

[quote:nhg2o8pr]But purgatory implies that Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient, that he didn’t finish the work of redemption on Calvary. Why do Catholics feel the need to add to it by doing more work in purgatory? [/quote:nhg2o8pr]

You say:
[quote:nhg2o8pr]
This objection is based on a pair of erroneous presumptions: That progressive sanctification and suffering take away from Christ’s work on Calvary and that the Church teaches that purgatory is work. [/quote:nhg2o8pr]

1 – regardless of where Christ purifies men, it is precisely because his sacrifice was sufficient that each believer can be perfected. And you say that 1 Cointhians 6:11 is an example, well that verses says “[color=darkred:nhg2o8pr]And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.[/color:nhg2o8pr] notice it says Justified as in you have been – the past! Paul refers to those who have been already!!!
Then you add 1 Thessalonians 4:3 – [color=darkred:nhg2o8pr]” For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;”[/color:nhg2o8pr] which simply tells us that if we are justified then act like you were in your daily life. And verse 1 Thessalonians 5:23 -[color=darkred:nhg2o8pr] “Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”[/color:nhg2o8pr] none of these tells us of a purification after one dies.

then you go to (Heb. 12:1–12)
Which tells us that God disciplines His children in verse 6 – [color=darkred:nhg2o8pr] For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.”[/color:nhg2o8pr]
but you aren’t a child of His until you believe in Him! and this still does not talk about a punishment after death!

Then you add:

[quote:nhg2o8pr]I can accept that suffering happens to each believer, but Christ paid all punishments for sin. If purgatory is a punishment, then it means Christ left some part of the debt unpaid.

Some Christians maintain that all temporal punishments for sin are taken away if the person has repented. But the Bible indicates that although God takes away the eternal punishment, some temporal punishments may remain. [/quote:nhg2o8pr]
And you give several verses attempting to prove that

[quote:nhg2o8pr]The sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice is not lessened by the fact that God’s work of perfecting his children is a process that often involves suffering and even temporal punishment.[/quote:nhg2o8pr]

But none of them do establish of a place called Purgatory. Temporal punishments do not remove our sins either Mr. Weathers, that is all just empty speculations for the Bible tells us that salvation is a gift, not works
lest one boasts. Those consequences that David lost his son is a result of his sin, not His being purged of sin

[b:nhg2o8pr]Just keep trying, but you can’t prove something that isn’t there![/b:nhg2o8pr]