Reply To: What is Tradition?

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[quote:3i0tiy9u]Circular argument? Naw, It is the Word of God and it is sufficient.[/quote:3i0tiy9u]
If you have no rebuttal, you have conceded my point. Sola Scriptura only stands when it is presumed. When one’s conclusion is one’s premise, the argument is a circle and invalid.

[quote:3i0tiy9u]To say that the Bible doesn’t tell us everything is to suggest that we’d need something that’s missing. So what is it that you think we’re missing and then do we just ignore the verses that says we can know?[/quote:3i0tiy9u]
The Bible itself tells you what is missing: oral tradition.

[quote:3i0tiy9u]But since we aren’t living at that time, the only way for us to know this 2000 years later is through the written Word[/quote:3i0tiy9u]
Christians did not have a single word of New Testament for 20 years and did not have a Bible for nearly 400 years. They knew what was what because they listened to the Church. And as I mentioned before, it was through their knowledge of tradition that they discerned the books of the New Testament.

[quote:3i0tiy9u]He tells us in 1 Corinthians 4:6 – that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other [/quote:3i0tiy9u]
You take this completely out of context if you believe St. Paul is teaching the Corinthians to look only to Scripture. St. Paul is reproaching them for their pride and reminding them that God is Judge.

[quote:3i0tiy9u]Hebrews 4:12 does not include traditions, but on ly Scriptures[/quote:3i0tiy9u]
The word of God is not Scripture alone. The word of God is all of God’s revelation through the words of the prophets. Scripture consists of the portion of the word of God that was written down, not the entirety of it.

[quote:3i0tiy9u]The areas in which they do NOT match are many in Catholic teachings as I’ve shown in my website[/quote:3i0tiy9u]
Ron, you have demonstrated a very deficient understanding of Catholic doctrine since you have been here. You have also shown a wooden, literalistic understanding of Scripture that time and again has wrested Scripture from its proper context. Your website only shows contradiction between your faulty hermeneutic and your faulty understanding of tradition and Catholic teaching.

[quote:3i0tiy9u]the oral traditions aren’t the same as what your church claims and tries to tell us[/quote:3i0tiy9u]
Tradition is profuse throughout the early Church Fathers and their writings. They are unmistakeably Catholic, not Protestant.

[quote:3i0tiy9u]which is another reason that you have the catechism[/quote:3i0tiy9u]
A Catechism is no closer to the Book of Mormon than a Sunday school lesson. The Catechism is a compilation of the Church’s teaching provided for reference and catechesis (instruction in the faith). It is a textbook of the faith and not a source of addition.

[quote:3i0tiy9u]By quoting Matthew 16 in no way proves you are the “church” its only one of your claims. One only has to know Scriptures to see that much![/quote:3i0tiy9u]
The succession of the Catholic Church from St. Peter and the Apostles to the bishops of today is unbroken and historical fact. Every Catholic bishop in the world can trace his ordination to an Apostle. These are the very men St. Paul charged Timothy to instruct and pass on the faith.

[quote:3i0tiy9u]THE oral teachings that was said is much different then what you guys claim it said, things like today’s mass[/quote:3i0tiy9u]
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. St. Justin Martyr, First Apology LXVII

That is the mass right there.

“Our Lord, whose precepts and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honour of a bishop and the order of His Church, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.’ Thence, through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Church flow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers.s Since this, then, is founded on the divine law, I marvel that some, with daring temerity, have chosen to write to me as if they wrote in the name of the Church; when the Church is established in the bishop and the clergy, and all who stand fast in the faith.” St. Cyprian, To the Lapsed, Epistle 26/33

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which iseither by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyraens, 8

[quote:3i0tiy9u]sacramental means of “meriting graces,”[/quote:3i0tiy9u]
“‘And dipped himself,’ says [the Scripture], ‘seven times in Jordan.’ It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ ” St. Irenaeus, Fragment, 34

“Having learn these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, And bread strengtheneth man’s heart, to make his face to shine with oil, ‘strengthen thou thine heart,’ by partaking thereof as spiritual, and “make the face of thy soul to shine.” ” St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXII:8

“Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd…He taught me .. faithful writings…These words,I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed.In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray fro Abercius.” Inscription of Abercius

“[A] woman is more bound when her husband is dead…Indeed,she prays for his soul,and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowshipin the first resurrection;and she offers on the anniversary of his falling asleep.” Tertullian, On Monogamy, 10

“If the baptized person fufils the obligations demanded of a Christian,he does well. If he does not–provided he keeps the faith,without which he would perish forever–no matter in what sin or impurity remains,he will be saved,as it were,by fire; as one who has built on the foundation,which is Christ,not Gold,silver, and precious stones,but wood, hay straw,that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works.” St. Augustine, Faith and Works, 1:1

[quote:3i0tiy9u]In most of these your interpretation of
the word is explained, not what the Bible says especially in the Gospel itself!!! [/quote:3i0tiy9u]
I can show all of the above in the Bible as well. But we are discussing oral tradition right now.

[quote:3i0tiy9u]the many traditions that you guys have added that differs and weren’t said and those are the ones that are absent from Scriptures[/quote:3i0tiy9u]
Just because they are absent from the Scriptures does not mean they were added. And just because they are absent from the Scriptures does not mean they contradict Scripture.

But the point is moot as the Church has not added any tradition. She has passed down only what she has received, which I have already started showing above.

[quote:3i0tiy9u]Yet John says we can know because what the Scriptures have is sufficient – Do we ignore this statement?[/quote:3i0tiy9u]
We ignore it as much as we ignore the statements that Scripture is not complete.

Every Catholic doctrine can be found in the Bible, be it explicitly, implicitly, or deductively. Scripture is materially sufficient for that reason. But Scripture is not formally sufficient and it states so explicitly several times, such as the admonishment to follow oral tradition in addition to Scripture or the acknowledgement that there is much Christ said and taught that was not recorded.

You then go on to, I believe, argue against transubstantiation by citing verses dealing with ritual washing before a meal. That just makes no sense and it further shows me that you do not understand Catholic teaching nor do you interpret the Bible in context with a sound hermeneutic.