Home Forums All Things Catholic No such place as purgatory Reply To: No such place as purgatory


[quote:7an07pks]Here we go with the “context” arguments again.[/quote:7an07pks]
Context is very important in exegesis and hermeneutics, which is why your proferred interpretations are typically lacking.

[quote:7an07pks]Which is one of my points – We all fall short when we look for righteousness.[/quote:7an07pks]
It is an irrelevant point. Purgatory is not about looking for righteousness but being made perfect in righteousness.

[quote:7an07pks]Romans 7 (not 6) Paul tells us that even thought he is saved, there remains the fact that sin is in these fleshly bodys[/quote:7an07pks]
And this is where context comes back into it. Romans 6 sets context for 7 and Romans 6 tells us that we are baptized into the death of Christ and rise with Him. Your earlier assertion that there can be no true perfection in these bodies is contradicted by passages such as Romans 6. St. Paul tells us that we can and must overcome our sinful nature through our baptism into Christ’s death and our rising with Him. And from the context of the chapter, we know that he is speaking about while we yet live, before we physically die and receive our new bodies at the resurrection.

I fully agree that we must contend with sin as long as we remain in these bodies. Until our physical death and resurrection, sin will beset us on all sides. However, this does not mean we are wholly depraved and incapable of being made ever more righteous.

[quote:7an07pks]Ephesians 2 tells us that “it is a gift, not of ourselves lest we boast”[/quote:7an07pks]
This is unrelated to anything I have said. We do not and cannot bring about our own righteousness. Only with and through Christ are men made righteous.

[quote:7an07pks]You asked me – “Do you believe that prayer is ineffectual? Or only that prayer for others is ineffectual? ” … What is your point?[/quote:7an07pks]
You seemingly doubted the efficacy of prayer.

“But then you’d rather believe that someone’s else’s prayers does that? Not likely.”

As you quoted, the prayer of the righteous man is powerful (funny how the man is righteous).

[quote:7an07pks]Note – I certainly would not consider prayers to or for the dead to be very effectual but to God alone![/quote:7an07pks]
If I am praying for the dead, how am I not praying to God? You are objecting out of hand without considering what you are saying.

[quote:7an07pks]Which brings us back to my original point of If Christ sufferd and died to cleanse us (He did) then how can you preach about purgatory?[/quote:7an07pks]
As I have mentioned too many times now, purgatory is one way in which Christ cleanses us. The point of our cleansing is what? To make us perfect. Are we perfect right now? Probably not. Will we be perfect at the moment of death? Probably not. Must we be perfect to enter heaven? Yes. Therefore, we must be made perfect between the moment of death and our entering heaven. This process is called purgatory. Since the only way we can be made perfect is through the sacrifice of Christ, purgatory is just the application of that sacrifice through to its end – our perfection.

[quote:7an07pks]That certainly is not Biblical.[/quote:7an07pks]
It is most assuredly Biblical. But as you have so far rejected the practice of reasoning with the Scriptures beyond a wooden, literalistic reading, you cannot see it.

You did not answer my earlier question, which is necessary to proceed.

Are we ever made truly perfect? Not imputed as perfect, a dung heap beneath the snow or a screen of Christ standing before us, but actually perfect, cleansed and washed free of every stain and evil inclination?