August 1, 2012 at 5:03 pm #2133
so there can or will never be any women priests – why not more women Deaconesses especially to cater for women and children etc – also why not more Deacons married or otherwise – twincAugust 1, 2012 at 10:39 pm #10448
About Catholics TeamKeymaster
I believe a Vatican commission some years ago determined that since there cannot be women bishops or women priests there could not be deaconesses. In other words since women could not be elevated to the highest order of Holy Orders that they could not receive the sacrament at all.August 2, 2012 at 12:12 am #10449
While you seem to be using bating tactics to determine if you will decide who is and is not a heretic, I’ll assure you that the Administrator of this board is quite orthodox. If as it appears you are baiting, I’d ask you to be intellectually and morally honest, and simply state what it is that you reject. Is it the NOM, Vatican II, are you a Sede? You seem to lump most everyone who accepts what the Church teaches but you reject as modernists and heretics.
Pope John Paul II answered and while many liberals do not wish to hear the answer, that the Holy See has no authority to change the constant teaching and practice of the Church reagarding the ordination of women. The Vatican has responded to the women who have formed the “Womenpriest” movement, that their ordinations were invalid, as women cannot recieve Holy Orders.
Historians who look at the subject honestly admit that there were Deaconesses in the Early Church, but they did not recieve Orders, nor did they assist the Bishop at Mass, but simply assisted with the rites of Baptism of women, as they would in most cases change out of their clothes after batpism and anointing into a white garment.August 2, 2012 at 4:54 pm #10454
so there were no women Priests nor can be,but there were Deaconesses but cannot now be,and there were no altar girls but can now be – guess who is confused – twincAugust 2, 2012 at 7:25 pm #10456
Any postion which is named deaconess east or west is not in any way a part of Holy Orders. Altar Servers, while originally the minor order of acolyte are no longer ordained to minor orders, which were never part of the three positions within holy orders of deacon, priest and bishop. So there has been no change in the admission of women to Holy Orders.
If a Roman Catholic bishop in communion with the Holy See has attempted to do ordain a woman to holy orders, it is first invalid, and second a grave offense. It is up to the Holy See to discipline them.
There have been attempted ordaintion of women by Old Catholic bishops, the “womenpriests” who were excommunicated after they submitted to these attempted ordinations by Old Catholic bishops were declaired by the Holy See to be invalid, null and void. So I see no point in your posting your gripes here, unless you are of the Camp that proposes that anyone who is in Communion with the Pope is not a Catholic and only those who hold the Sede position remain so. If that is the case, you need to be honest with everyone on the board so they can evaluate the merit of your baiting posts.August 3, 2012 at 12:13 am #10461
With regard to the position of deaconess in the early Church. All but a few liberal historians and theologians agree that the deaconess was not a part of Holy Orders, nor was it utilized in any liturgical functions except for accompaning the deacon or priest who went to a sick woman’s side for anionting or communion, and assisting the bishop when baptizing, as the newly baptized woman who was anointed with oil and then changed into a white garment could not be fully anointed by the bishop or be in the room where she changed her clothing without scandal. While they assisted the bishops, priests and deacons, they were not admitted to orders.
We have to also recall the title diakonos means helper, or assistant. It is derived from a secular word. The deacon in the Church has always been in Holy Orders, the deaconess, which survived longer among Eastern Catholics, and I’m guessing was re-instituted in the West, although I’d like you to post where it was revived, as I’ve not read about it, has never been admitted to Holy Orders.
Before Vatican II aside from an Altar Society, member, or the bride and bridal party women did not normally enter the sanctuary. Women sometimes rang the bells and made the responses, passed the paten from one to the next but all outside the altar rail if there were no males to serve a priest at the altar. The priest kept the cruets on the gradine or the mensa as he did not have a server in the sanctuary.
While I don’t have a say in what the Vatican approves regarding female acolytes, it is within the scope of the authority of the Holy See to permit such things. That it may have started as an abuse somewhere is not the issue, a sad fact perhaps, but the Holy See has every right to make these modifications.August 3, 2012 at 7:57 am #10464
Anonymous"Jon":3a1twcew wrote:I believe a Vatican commission some years ago determined that since there cannot be women bishops or women priests there could not be deaconesses. In other words since women could not be elevated to the highest order of Holy Orders that they could not receive the sacrament at all.[/quote:3a1twcew]
simple answers are complicated and twisted and not given – the Church is always right but does not always know how or why – as with women priests so also with Adam and Eve – imho Adam represented humankind and not just mankind whereas Eve only represented womankind,so also is the case with men as Priests at the altar representing humankind – a man carries x and y chromosomes = male and female, a woman carries only xx female chromosomes as I read it – any comments – twincAugust 5, 2012 at 11:49 am #10469
This is my understanding about ordained women. It is not possible. This is not about fair, or right, or just. Jesus chose only males as apostles. We cannot defy The Lord. We can only follow his teachings.August 9, 2012 at 1:44 pm #10477
Anonymous"Earthwanderer I":1wr3lkr4 wrote:This is my understanding about ordained women. It is not possible. This is not about fair, or right, or just. Jesus chose only males as apostles. We cannot defy The Lord. We can only follow his teachings.[/quote:1wr3lkr4]
no doubt or dispute but the question is why ? – twinc
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