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  • #1238

    herkman
    Member

    I am not a Catholic; my neighbors are, however they are mostly unable to explain Catholisism clearly. They have only raised more questions about Catholisism. Would someone explain all this overwelming lingo and stuff to me? Respond here or email me at theherkmanatgmaildotcom

    #6106

    Bernardine
    Member

    Hi herkman. This “lingo” and “stuff” you are talking about, what exactly are you referring to? You need to be more specific because there is such a huge amount of catholic teaching. But I will tackle the topic of Sola Scriptura since I seen it under your message. Well first of all, as you probably already know, protestants have as their sole rule of faith the written Word of God, which we find in Sacred Scripture. The Catholic Church has as its sole rule of faith, the entire Word of God, as it is found in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. All of the Word of God was at one time passed on orally…Sacred Tradition. Eventually, some of Sacred Tradition was written down…this became Sacred Scripture, which is written tradition. However, Scripture itself tells us that not all of the things that Jesus said and did were written down. And listen to what Paul says about tradition: 2 Thes 2:15, “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” Traditions! Traditions taught by word of mouth, in other words, oral tradition, and traditions taught by letter. Traditions which they are being told to “stand firm and hold to”. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.1 Corinth 11:2, “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.” The Corinthians are being commended by Paul because they maintain the traditions that he passed on to them. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. 2 Timothy 2:2: “and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” What we have here in 2 Timothy is an instance, in Scripture, of Paul commanding the passing on of oral tradition.1 Thes 2:13, “And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the Word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the Word of God, which is at work in you believers.” So, they received as the Word of God that which they heard, not simply that which they read in Scripture. In other words, the Bible clearly supports the Catholic Church’s teaching that the Word of God is contained in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Hopefully this helps you that topic.
    Your brother in Christ,
    Mike

    #6107

    herkman
    Member

    [quote:o67u9hnc]Hi herkman. This “lingo” and “stuff” you are talking about, what exactly are you referring to? You need to be more specific because there is such a huge amount of catholic teaching.[/quote:o67u9hnc]

    Let me put it this way, they tried to explain to me about sacrements, graces, indulgences, ect. And I basically understand none of it. What I am looking for is someone to explain, basically, everything about Catholisism to me. Pretend I know nothing about, well, anything; and explain to me from the beggining.

    #6110

    Bernardine
    Member

    Okay. I recommend purchasing a book that explains everything you ever wanted to know about the Catholic Church and all the terms. It is called, “Catechism of the Catholic Church”. You can either purchase it at a Catholic bookstore out in town, or a Catholic website. A protestant bookstore and/or website won’t have it. Look in your yellow pages for the Catholic bookstore nearest you. Here is a Catholic website that I use all the time that has free shipping(the one I give you goes directly to the CCC book), http://www.catholicfreeshipping.com/Pro … m-173.html

    Also, it wouldn’t be such a bad idea to go to a Catholic Church and ask a priest all your questions. Go to the Churches parish office and simply tell the receptionist that you would like to know more about the Catholic Church and was wondering if you could schedule a time with the priest for a conversation. Or you could attend a Catholic mass (make sure you do not receive communion though) and after the mass has ended, the priest will shake everyone’s hands. Wait until the parishioners have dwindled off and once the priest looks like he is done shaking peoples hands, simply go up to him and tell him you are interesting in knowing more about the Catholic faith and was wondering if he could help you. Your request will be welcomed with open arms, I guarantee it.
    God Bless.
    Mike

    #6111

    herkman
    Member

    [quote:3ulhvg5x]Also, it wouldn’t be such a bad idea to go to a Catholic Church and ask a priest all your questions. Go to the Churches parish office and simply tell the receptionist that you would like to know more about the Catholic Church and was wondering if you could schedule a time with the priest for a conversation.[/quote:3ulhvg5x]

    Read my thread in the introduction forum.

    [quote:3ulhvg5x]Or you could attend a Catholic mass (make sure you do not receive communion though)[/quote:3ulhvg5x]

    Why?

    [quote:3ulhvg5x]and after the mass has ended, the priest will shake everyone’s hands. Wait until the parishioners have dwindled off and once the priest looks like he is done shaking peoples hands, simply go up to him and tell him you are interesting in knowing more about the Catholic faith and was wondering if he could help you. Your request will be welcomed with open arms, I guarantee it.[/quote:3ulhvg5x]

    Like I said before, read this thread: [url:3ulhvg5x]http://www.aboutcatholics.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=780[/url:3ulhvg5x]

    #6113

    weather
    Member

    I sorta know what your going thru I was raised a Protestant for 23 years until I married my wife(who is a devout Catholic) in 1959 and we went to mass every Sunday and I could not under stand what they were saying(cause then it was all in Latin)but I knew I found the TRUE church that God made and I felt comfortable there.I don’t know what religion you are but sometime go to a Catholic mass and enjoy the great feeling of being with God.

    #6124

    Benedict
    Member

    [quote:1dxzeeuc]What I am looking for is someone to explain, basically, everything about Catholisism to me.[/quote:1dxzeeuc]
    Please note that this will take both no time at all and an entire lifetime.

    “Everything” about Catholicism:

    We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.
    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, light from light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father;
    through him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven,
    was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
    and became truly human.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered death and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again
    in accordance with the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
    who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
    who has spoken through the prophets.

    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.



    Beyond that, ask questions one at a time. It is too messy to just “explain everything” about a 2000-year old religion.

    #6127

    Victor
    Member

    [quote:2kk76c5k]Please note that this will take both no time at all and an entire lifetime.

    “Everything” about Catholicism:

    We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.
    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, light from light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father;
    through him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven,
    was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
    and became truly human.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered death and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again
    in accordance with the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
    who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
    who has spoken through the prophets.

    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.



    Beyond that, ask questions one at a time. It is too messy to just “explain everything” about a 2000-year old religion.[/quote:2kk76c5k]

    [color=darkblue:2kk76c5k]What Benedict provided is exactly what we use in our parish Confirmation as a sorta outline of the Catholic faith. You can write a book on every sentence.[/color:2kk76c5k]

    #6134

    herkman
    Member

    [quote:1zds15xd][quote:1zds15xd]What I am looking for is someone to explain, basically, everything about Catholisism to me.[/quote:1zds15xd]
    Please note that this will take both no time at all and an entire lifetime.

    “Everything” about Catholicism:

    We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.
    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, light from light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father;
    through him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven,
    was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
    and became truly human.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered death and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again
    in accordance with the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
    who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
    who has spoken through the prophets.

    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.[/quote:1zds15xd]

    The only thing I disagree with is: “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.” Ephesians 2:8-9

    [quote:1zds15xd]Beyond that, ask questions one at a time. It is too messy to just “explain everything” about a 2000-year old religion.[/quote:1zds15xd]
    LOL! Okay, what’s a “grace?”

    #6138

    Benedict
    Member

    [quote:beou42qz]The only thing I disagree with is: “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.” Ephesians 2:8-9[/quote:beou42qz]
    The sacraments are the works of God, not of man. God freely gives His grace to us through them (though not exclusively through them). They are, therefore, perfectly in line with Ephesians 2.

    [u:beou42qz]Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also[/u:beou42qz]: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21

    But Peter said to them: Do penance: and [u:beou42qz]be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins[/u:beou42qz]. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39

    And the Old Testament foreshadow of Acts 2, in which we see that it is God who works in baptism:

    [u:beou42qz]And [b:beou42qz]I[/b:beou42qz] will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols[/u:beou42qz]. And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and do them. And you shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. Ezekiel 36:25-28

    And the writings of the early Church Fathers. St. Justin Martyr was one of the first and greatest Christian apologists in the immediate post-Apostolic age. St. Irenaeus was a second-generation disciple of St. John the Apostle, by way of St. Polycarp of Smyrna:

    As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly … [u:beou42qz]are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated[/u:beou42qz]. For, in the name of God, the Father … and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (St. Justin Martyr, First Apology 61).

    “And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan” [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but as an indication to us. [u:beou42qz]For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes[/u:beou42qz], even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'” (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment 34).

    [quote:beou42qz]Okay, what’s a “grace?”[/quote:beou42qz]
    Used in the context of “[b:beou42qz]a[/b:beou42qz] grace”, it refers to any particular blessing or gift of the Holy Spirit. In Catholicism, it is typically called a charism (from the Greek word for grace, [i:beou42qz]charis[/i:beou42qz]).

    #6143

    Mister Emu
    Member

    [quote:2p2ujr7w]Why?[/quote:2p2ujr7w]
    I will assume the question is an inquiry into why you should not partake communion?

    1 Cor 11:27
    [quote:2p2ujr7w]Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. [/quote:2p2ujr7w]

    1 Cor 11:29
    [quote:2p2ujr7w]For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.[/quote:2p2ujr7w]

    You can see why the Church is cautious to give out the body and blood of our Savior, when if you are not worthy you bring damnation upon yourself…

    #6145

    gesundheit
    Member

    Hey Herkman,

    As a Protestant what has convinced you that Catholics are not Christians?

    I’d prefer not to hear the arguments like: (1) they worship Mary and commit idolatry; (2)prayers for the dead is sinful (3) they add to faith the OT works of the law, and so forth…

    What kind of home are you raised in? What’s your denomination? Who told you Catholics are not Christians?

    Is the creed shared earlier (I can’t remember who) not evidence enough that they are of the same faith as any confessing Protestant?

    #6160

    herkman
    Member

    [quote:3nhvnq7r][quote:3nhvnq7r]The only thing I disagree with is: “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.” Ephesians 2:8-9[/quote:3nhvnq7r]
    The sacraments are the works of God, not of man. God freely gives His grace to us through them (though not exclusively through them). They are, therefore, perfectly in line with Ephesians 2.

    [u:3nhvnq7r]Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also[/u:3nhvnq7r]: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21

    But Peter said to them: Do penance: and [u:3nhvnq7r]be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins[/u:3nhvnq7r]. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39

    And the Old Testament foreshadow of Acts 2, in which we see that it is God who works in baptism:

    [u:3nhvnq7r]And [b:3nhvnq7r]I[/b:3nhvnq7r] will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols[/u:3nhvnq7r]. And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and do them. And you shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. Ezekiel 36:25-28

    And the writings of the early Church Fathers. St. Justin Martyr was one of the first and greatest Christian apologists in the immediate post-Apostolic age. St. Irenaeus was a second-generation disciple of St. John the Apostle, by way of St. Polycarp of Smyrna:

    As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly … [u:3nhvnq7r]are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated[/u:3nhvnq7r]. For, in the name of God, the Father … and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (St. Justin Martyr, First Apology 61).

    “And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan” [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but as an indication to us. [u:3nhvnq7r]For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes[/u:3nhvnq7r], even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'” (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment 34).[/quote:3nhvnq7r]

    The O.T. verse in Ezekiel is symbolic. The one in Kings is not talking about the forgiveness of sins, but about the cure of Naaman’s disease. As for the N.T. verses… I don’t have a lot of time so I’m going to copy and paste from biblefood about ‘baptizo.’

    [quote:3nhvnq7r]Underneath the English word “baptize” in the New Testament, are forms of the Greek word “baptizo”, from the root word “bapto”, meaning “to dip”. The English word “baptism” is not a translation of the Greek word “baptizo”, but is a “transliteration”, or bringing the “spelling” of the Greek word “baptizo” into the English language with a comparable English spelling. This means that the English word “baptize” has no meaning of its own, but we must look at the uses of the Greek word “baptizo” in the Bible and in Greek literature to find it’s true meaning. What we want to know is, what did “baptizo” mean to the New Testament writers who used it in the Greek text.

    In my studies, I find that “baptizo” was used in two ways in the classical Greek literature:

    1. To “place in”, as a physical immersion. In the Ninth Book of the Odyssey, “baptizo” is used concerning a blacksmith plunging a piece of hot iron in water to temper it. Also, the classical Greek writer Euripedes used “baptizo” concerning a ship which sinks beneath the water.

    2. To “identify with”, a ceremonial use of “baptizo”. In the classical Greek writing “Anabasis” written by Xenophon, Greek soldiers were said to have ceremonially “baptized”, or “dipped” spears and arrow tips in blood, to “identity” them as weapons of war.

    “Baptizo” became the common Greek word for “dipping”, “submerging”, and “washing” by the time of Christ and the writing of books of the New Testament. The Greek word “baptizo”, is even translated “washings” in Heb 9:10, where it speaks of the ceremonial “washings” of the Old Testament temple sacrifice system.

    When we study all the passages in the New Testament where we find the word “baptism”, we find that there are actually SEVEN “baptisms” in the New Testament; four “real baptisms”, and three “ritual, or symbolic baptisms”. The first four “real baptisms” are “dry baptisms”, where the recipient was not immersed in water at all.

    The four “real” baptisms have the second meaning above, an actual “identification” of one thing with another. God himself is the sole agent for these four baptisms:

    1. 1 Cor.10:2, the “Baptism of Moses”: The word baptism in 1 Cor.10:2, refers specifically to the children of Israel as they were leaving Egypt. All the people who left Egypt with Moses and went with him through the Red Sea are said to have been baptized (identified) with Moses in the cloud (Christ was in the cloud), and in the sea. This “identified” them with Moses and the plan of God to free the children of Israel, and re-establish them in their homeland. Notice this is a baptism where no one got wet except the Egyptians! This was a unique, one-time “baptism”.

    2. Mat.20:22: “Baptism of the cross”, in which Christ was “identified” with our sins, called here the “Baptism of the Cup”. He who knew no sin was made to be a sin offering for us. This was also a unique, one-time baptism.

    3. Matt. 3:11-12, Luke 3:16: The Baptism of Fire, which will occur at the end of the Seven Year Tribulation, is the removal of all unbelievers from the earth at the end of the Tribulation, to begin the 1000 year Millennial Reign of Christ on earth with believers only. (“Wheat” in this passage refers to the people of God who physically live through the Tribulation, and “chaff”, in the scripture, always refers to unbelievers). In this “baptism”, every human being that is left on the earth to live in the Millennium is “identified” with the Millennial reign of Christ, where the world is started over with believers only, just like the Great Flood of Noah’s time swept away all the unbelievers..

    4. 1 Cor.12:13, Gal 3:27; Baptism by the Holy Spirit. These passages teach a permanent, instantaneous, one-time “baptism” of every child of God, by the Holy Spirit. This is the point in time that the child of God is “born again”, 1 Pet 1:23, transferred from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of God, Col. 1:13, sealed into union with Christ by the Holy Spirit, Eph. 1:13&14, and therefore permanently “identified” as “in Christ”.

    The three “ritual baptisms”:

    1. The baptism of John, Matt. 3:1-10, John 1:25-33: This was a Jewish, not a Christian baptism. Water in this baptism represents coming the kingdom of God that John was preaching. The new believer would go under the water “because of repentance”, to indicate his identification with the eternal kingdom of God. This was a unique and temporary baptism for people who lived just prior to and during the early ministry of Jesus. These believers would later be baptized by the Holy Spirit, after Pentecost and the beginning of the Church Age, in Acts Chapter two, and later they received ritual believers baptism to represent what had already happened to them, identifying them with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Interestingly, believers who lived during the Apostolic Era, during the life of the 12 Apostles, may have received THREE different “baptisms”, the baptism of John, baptism of the Holy Spirit, and ritual water baptism!

    2. Mat.3:13-17, The baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ by John the Baptist (actually John the “Baptizer”). The water in this case represented the will of the Father. Jesus willingly went under the water to represent His “identification” with the Father’s will – He would go to the cross. Another unique, one-time baptism.

    3. Acts 2:38, 8:36 & 38, and 16:33. Ritual water baptism for the Church Age believer. This is a beautiful picture of something that has already happened. When a person has become a child of God by being instantaneously “born again”, 1 Pet 1:23, transferred from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of God, Col. 1:13, and sealed into union with Christ, Eph. 1:13&14, ritual water baptism pictures all of this as well as being “dead with Christ”, and “raised in newness of life”, Rom. 6:3 & 4.

    Water Baptism is not necessary for “salvation”:

    Becoming a child of God is a sovereign act of God Himself. He alone is responsible for the New Birth, for transferring us from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of God, and for sealing us into permanent union with Christ.

    In Luke 23:39-43, Jesus told the repentant thief who was crucified on the Cross with him that “today thou shalt be with me in paradise”. There was no time for him to be water baptized.

    Some religious denominations teach “baptismal regeneration”, that the “ACT” of water baptism itself regenerates or makes a person a born again child of God.

    Those who believe in “baptismal regeneration”, and that water baptism is necessary for salvation, use Acts 2:38, 22:16, and 1 Pet 3:21 to prove their belief, but, I find that the Greek text in these verses, and the teaching of the rest of the Word of God on baptism, shows that this is incorrect:


    In Acts 2:38, Peter said unto them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”. Some denominations see the word “for” in this verse as meaning that water baptism itself washes away sins. But, the English word “for” in this verse is the Greek word “eis”, meaning “because of” the remission of sins. Their sins were forgiven already, and their public baptism was a RITUAL to publicly acknowledge what God had already done.

    This was also during the “Apostolic Era”, during the ministry of the twelve Apostles, when people who were already born again believers received the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a separate experience, as in Acts. 8:15-17. In the New Testament Epistles to the CHURCHES, from Roman letter to the first 3 chapters of the Book of Revelation, “baptism by the Holy Spirit” is no longer a separate experience, but a person is born again, transferred from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of God, and sealed into union with Christ, at one point in time, by a sovereign act of God.


    In 1 Pet 3:21, for example, the Greek word translated “baptism” is the Greek word “baptisma”, which is a NOUN, meaning the “THINGS” SIGNIFIED BY BAPTISM, it is NOT A VERB as the English reader would naturally assume! Peter is saying that “baptism doth save us (is presently saving us) “, meaning that the “things”, or “Bible teachings”, or “doctrines” CONCERNING baptism are now saving us. What are those things, or teachings that baptism signifies? We are buried with Christ, sins washed away, raised in newness of life, the great doctrines of soteriology, or salvation, these are the “things” now saving us, not the verb, the ACT of baptism!

    I believe the bottom line is that the New Testament teaches that the ACT of water baptism outwardly PORTRAYS what God HAS ALREADY DONE for us. The REALITY is what God does. The RITUAL is what we do to publicly acknowledge what God has done.

    As far as “sprinkling” and “immersion” is concerned, the Greek language has a word for “sprinkle”, and that is “rantizo”. “Rantizo” is used in Heb. 9:13, 19, and 21, in Heb.10:22, Heb. 12:24, and in 1 Pet. 1:2. “Rantizo”, or “sprinkling” is never used concerning a ritual for New Testament believers. Substituting “sprinkling” for “baptism” by immersion has no Biblical basis.

    Some denominations also place great stress on Acts 2:38, adamantly believing that you cannot be “saved” until you are water baptized specifically “in the name of Jesus Christ”. But, if we read further on, we read in Acts 10:48 that new believers were told to be baptized “in the name of the Lord”. Most Baptists, that I know of, baptize in “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. The New Testament teaches that all our prayer should be addressed to the Father, in the name of Jesus, in the power of the Holy Spirit, so being baptized in “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” makes good sense to me.

    1 John 5:1 states in the Greek, “Anyone who is presently believing that Jesus is the Christ, has already been permanently born out from the source of God”. So, personally, I believe that in the Church Age, we should teach new believers the full meaning of ritual water baptism before they are baptized. When properly understood, believers baptism is a beautiful ritual that signifies that our old life has already been buried with Christ, and we are raised with Him in newness of life. By the power of God, we have already become a new person “in Christ”, 2 Cor. 5:17.[/quote:3nhvnq7r]

    [quote:3nhvnq7r]Hey Herkman,

    As a Protestant what has convinced you that Catholics are not Christians?

    I’d prefer not to hear the arguments like: (1) they worship Mary and commit idolatry; (2)prayers for the dead is sinful (3) they add to faith the OT works of the law, and so forth…

    What kind of home are you raised in? What’s your denomination? Who told you Catholics are not Christians?

    Is the creed shared earlier (I can’t remember who) not evidence enough that they are of the same faith as any confessing Protestant?[/quote:3nhvnq7r]

    I am not protestant.
    I am being raised in a Christian/Evangelical home.
    I am of an Evangelical denomination.

    And, no, it is not.

    Even though I am not a protestant, the simple fact that you do not agree with my signature is what makes me believe that Catholics are not Christians.

    #6162

    Benedict
    Member

    I prefer when dialogue is not done by proxy. If you feel you need more time to respond, just say so and I will wait. Although I should warn you, I probably know Koine Greek better than most posters here.

    [quote:3rejzr09]The O.T. verse in Ezekiel is symbolic.[/quote:3rejzr09]
    It is symbolic. It symbolized and foreshadowed baptism (as we see in the direct parallel with Acts 2). Just because something is symbolic does not mean it is not also true.

    [quote:3rejzr09]The one in Kings is not talking about the forgiveness of sins, but about the cure of Naaman’s disease.[/quote:3rejzr09]
    True. But there is more than one sense to Scripture. Several of the Messianic Psalms were written about David but they foreshadow Christ.

    One of the oldest maxims of Bible study is that the Old Testament is revealed in the New, the New Testament foreshadowed in the Old. This is why we look at Genesis 3 and see Christ’s sacrifice at Golgotha. This is why we look at the bronze serpent and see it as a figure of Christ (although He gave us that explicitly). Notice how Naaman’s cure mirrors the discussion Christ had with Nicodemus and how Ezekiel’s prophecy of washing away sins and recieving the Holy Spirit is even more directly mirrored in St. Peter’s speech in Acts 2. These verses are not so close in subject and wording by coincidence.

    [quote:3rejzr09]3. Acts 2:38, 8:36 & 38, and 16:33. Ritual water baptism for the Church Age believer. This is a beautiful picture of something that has already happened. When a person has become a child of God by being instantaneously “born again”, 1 Pet 1:23, transferred from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of God, Col. 1:13, and sealed into union with Christ, Eph. 1:13&14, ritual water baptism pictures all of this as well as being “dead with Christ”, and “raised in newness of life”, Rom. 6:3 & 4.[/quote:3rejzr09]
    The piece from Biblefood is long on words but short on explanation. It commits the fallacy of [i:3rejzr09]petitio principii[/i:3rejzr09], i.e. begging the question. I have three verses above that specifically and explicitly state that baptism is for the remission of sins. In point 3 here, Biblefood simply assumes a purely ritual baptism without any attempt to show that the baptism is purely ritual. When one assumes his conclusion as a premise, then of course the argument arrives at the desired conclusion.

    [quote:3rejzr09]Some denominations see the word “for” in this verse as meaning that water baptism itself washes away sins. But, the English word “for” in this verse is the Greek word “eis”, meaning “because of” the remission of sins. Their sins were forgiven already, and their public baptism was a RITUAL to publicly acknowledge what God had already done.[/quote:3rejzr09]
    This is incorrect and is based on the exact same fallacy. If we look at Strong’s Concordance, [i:3rejzr09]eis[/i:3rejzr09] is defined as: into, unto, to, towards, for.

    From these definitions, we see that [i:3rejzr09]eis[/i:3rejzr09] is not explaining something in the past but something to come (into, unto, towards, for). It does so in nearly 1800 places in the Bible. But Strong cannot accept the plain meaning of the word. In his explanation below, he points out the plain meaning of the word contradicts his theology and so decides, without further argument or support, to redefine the word:

    “For” (as used in Acts 2:38 “for the forgiveness…”) could have two meanings. If you saw a poster saying “Jesse James wanted for robbery”, “for” could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The later sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word “for” signifies an action in the past. [u:3rejzr09]Otherwise, it would violate the entire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by grace and not by works[/u:3rejzr09].

    That last line that I have underlined is [i:3rejzr09]prepitio principii[/i:3rejzr09] in action. Rather than letting the Bible tell him what is truth, he has defined his belief [i:3rejzr09]a priori[/i:3rejzr09] and redefines the Bible where it does not fit.

    [quote:3rejzr09]


    In 1 Pet 3:21, for example, the Greek word translated “baptism” is the Greek word “baptisma”, which is a NOUN, meaning the “THINGS” SIGNIFIED BY BAPTISM, it is NOT A VERB as the English reader would naturally assume! Peter is saying that “baptism doth save us (is presently saving us) “, meaning that the “things”, or “Bible teachings”, or “doctrines” CONCERNING baptism are now saving us.[/quote:3rejzr09]
    I am not sure what this is. On the one hand, it has chosen to completely redefine the sentence in such a way that it makes no sense in Greek or in English.

    First, baptism is not a verb in English, so I do not know how the English reader would assume it is nor why that would have any impact on the correct reading of the verse.

    Second, the original verse does not reference any “things” signified by baptism, explicitly or implicitly. Such an idea is inserted into the verse by Biblefood just as surely as the novel definition of [i:3rejzr09]eis[/i:3rejzr09] was inserted by Strong.

    The verse is quite plain – baptism saves you now. It is only because one has denied [i:3rejzr09]a priori[/i:3rejzr09] that baptism does not save that he must change the Bible to fit.

    The rest of the citatoin is not really relevant to the discussion.

    [quote:3rejzr09]I am not protestant.
    I am being raised in a Christian/Evangelical home.
    I am of an Evangelical denomination. [/quote:3rejzr09]
    Evangelicalism grew out of Protestantism. Luther even referred to the faith he was building as the [i:3rejzr09]Evangelische Kirche[/i:3rejzr09] (Evangelical Church).

    A Protestant is a non-Catholic Christian. As a Baptist I did not object to the title, although I realize it has become a sticking point for some.

    [quote:3rejzr09]Even though I am not a protestant, the simple fact that you do not agree with my signature is what makes me believe that Catholics are not Christians.[/quote:3rejzr09]
    Gesundheit is Protestant.

    #6163

    gesundheit
    Member

    yes, evangelicalism grew out of Protestantism, therefore to be Evangelical is to be Protestant. IF you must, look it up: http://www.webster.com/dictionary/evangelicalism

    Now, something must be said about your rhetorical style (if any). To perform sound exegesis does not mean cite anything related to baptism and make comments on it that support your preconceived notions. (sigh*).

    [quote:23yya8x3]1 John 5:1 states in the Greek, “Anyone who…[/quote:23yya8x3]

    Is anyone else bothered by this? Herkmen, it is strange that you (or someone else) write in English what should have been given in Gk (you said “1 John 5:1 states in the Greek” – then tell us the Greek!). Knowing the biblical languages (or using them) is only useful when you discuss the different ways clauses have been interpreted, otherwise the exegesis is wasted.

    All of your beliefs I am 100% familiar with. In fact, I may agree with a lot of your statements (hey, I’m Protestant – I mean Evangelical…). But you’ll never convince another Christian (I will continue to refer to Christian Catholics in this way) that there baptism is wrong (and so on) with your rhetorical style.

    I would like to know which Evangelical Denomination and which church you go to. I think you should talk to your pastor about some of your questions, perhaps he can help your questions.

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