[quote:2nt2a34b]I can show you that Jesus said when asked what are the works to do, He said “to believe in Him who the father sent” or something like that from John 6:28+29[/quote:2nt2a34b]

And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith to him: All these have I kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me? Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. Matthew 19:16-21

And I believe I already quoted Matthew 25 in the other thread.

Faith without works is dead. Thus, faith alone is not sufficient for salvation.

Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians all address works of the law as impotent for salvation. Romans in particular was written specifically against the Judaizers, who taught that Christ apart from the Law was insufficient. Your interpretation does not harmonize Scripture because you twist what has been stated. Works are not simply a byproduct of faith but a necessity.

Christ Himself stated “if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” and in Matthew 25 He separated the sheep from the goats based on their works.

Likewise, John attests “I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Revelation 20:12

Your interpretation of Romans and Ephesianas is likewise contradicted explicitly by James.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

[quote:23372pbl]but He was declared righteous before that ever happened, long before Isaac was even born.[/quote:23372pbl]
What is the difference between being declared righteous and being justified?

Whenever Abraham was declared righteous, the Bible states he was justified by his works.

[quote:23372pbl]I just copied what was there, it did not need any interpretation, so why say that James contradicts these when we know that Scriptures do not cotrsdict other verses – as I illustrated with Ephesian 2:8+9 is followed by verse 10? Read it for what it says.[/quote:23372pbl]
You did more than just copy what was there. You offered your commentary: “we can see that saving faith is demonstrated with the works, [u:23372pbl]not by the works[/u:23372pbl]”. James says just the opposite.

The only problem I have with that definition of Justification is that justification is by infusion. God does not simply reckon us justified and accredit us righteousness; He [u:305rfks4]makes[/u:305rfks4] us so.

I am sure you thought it would be news to me. Anyway, here is the Council of Trent on Justification with a short summary of the doctrine by Dave Armstrong. If you do not want to read the whole thing, feel free to skip to the summary. It is much shorter and it references the appropriate canons and decrees if you need a more in-depth look.

[b:305rfks4]Council of Trent: Canons on Justification[/b:305rfks4] (with a handy summary of Tridentine soteriology)

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam’s sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.

CANON VI.-If any one saith, that it is not in man’s power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil God worketh as well as those that are good, not permissively only, but properly, and of Himself, in such wise that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul; let him be anathema.

CANON VII.-If any one saith, that all works done before Justification, in whatsoever way they be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; or that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins: let him be anathema.

CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that the fear of hell,-whereby, by grieving for our sins, we flee unto the mercy of God, or refrain from sinning,-is a sin, or makes sinners worse; let him be anathema.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that it is necessary for every one, for the obtaining the remission of sins, that he believe for certain, and without any wavering arising from his own infirmity and disposition, that his sins are forgiven him; let him be anathema.

CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.

CANON XV.-If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.

CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema.

CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.

CANON XXII.-If any one saith, that the justified, either is able to persevere, without the special help of God, in the justice received; or that, with that help, he is not able; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

CANON XXV.-If any one saith, that, in every good work, the just sins venially at least, or-which is more intolerable still-mortally, and consequently deserves eternal punishments; and that for this cause only he is not damned, that God does not impute those works unto damnation; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVI.-If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVII.-If any one saith, that there is no mortal sin but that of infidelity; or, that grace once received is not lost by any other sin, however grievous and enormous, save by that of infidelity; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVIII.-If any one saith, that, grace being lost through sin, faith also is always lost with it; or, that the faith which remains, though it be not a lively faith, is not a true faith; or, that he, who has faith without charity, is not a Christ taught; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIX.-If any one saith, that he, who has fallen after baptism, is not able by the grace of God to rise again; or, that he is able indeed to recover the justice which he has lost, but by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church-instructed by Christ and his Apostles-has hitherto professed, observed, and taught; let him be anathema.

CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

CANON XXXI.-If any one saith, that the justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal recompense; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXIII.-If any one saith,that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.

See also: The Decree (Chapters) on Justification[/url:305rfks4]

20. One must obey Jesus Christ as well as trust Him: Canon 21.

[quote:2qkatppz][color=red:2qkatppz]
John 10:29 – My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.[/color:2qkatppz]

I for one choose to reject your religion for my relationship to the Lord Jesus[/quote:2qkatppz]

[color=darkblue:2qkatppz]I’m intrigued at the reality that others have had the patience and time to answer your anti-RC babble.

Lord willing I have the same patience.

No man can pluck you (or me) out His hands. But he certainly choose to cut you, if he so chooses:[/color:2qkatppz]

[color=green:2qkatppz]”I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. ([b:2qkatppz]John 15[/b:2qkatppz])[/color:2qkatppz]

[color=darkblue:2qkatppz]You can talk until you turn blue in the face, but the reality is that you can indeed be plucked, pruned, or whatever, from our Lord himself.[/color:2qkatppz]

Benedict said
[quote:9mel10xf]
Ron, if someone goes through the trouble of providing information for you, the least you could do is address it. All you have done is brush it aside and ignore it while displaying further your increasingly deliberate ignorance of Catholic teaching. For example, I am quite certain you are unaware of the scope and meaning of the Council of Trent’s anathemas. They do not bear on you at all.

Quote:
Notice He felt like the good works meant so much to?

First of all, Jesus was talking about miracles (prophecy, exorcism, and wonderful works, not good works in general) and how working a miracle does not mean you are automatically saved.

Second, as already mentioned in this thread, Jesus specifically states in Matthew’s Gospel that to be saved one must follow the commandments and that He will separate the sheep from the goats based on their good works. You continue to try to boil down belief to the point that it does not include good works yet Jesus’s witness in Matthew alone indicates that to Him, belief necessarily includes good works (else it is dead faith, as James tells us). [/quote:9mel10xf]

[b:9mel10xf]I won’t comment on the third part as it doesn’t concern me. But the first part, okay thank you for the anathama info okay? I knew that there were 100 anathemas but I never had themm that well organized.
Now the rest – have you ever Read Romans 3+4? When you put Paul and James together they should not contradict each other, so how would you interpret it?
You say we must keep the commandments- the Bible says that we would have to be perfect and since we still occasionally fail, that leaves you in sin, so what are you trust trusting in? your works? Nope – not me
Matthew 25 just shows the characteristics of those that believed if you want to use it, but I don’t think that is even what Matthew 25 is about. And yes as I’ve said so many times “faith without works is dead” but it is the faith that saves,not the works[/b:9mel10xf]

No that isn’t it
the problem is if you are going to trust in your abilities to get you to Heaven such as Obeying the commandments – you need to be prefect
and we know we aren’t -so if you depend upon your merits then you fail because we are all human – but when we trust in what Jesus did alone to cleaanse us – that is when we are imputed His righteousness – Read Romans 4 – and 2 Corinthians 5:21 please

Note the difference from Romans 4:4 and how it compares with Romans 11:6

If you want I could look up these verses for you?

my mistake
Romans 4:4 – and with Romans 11:6
[color=red:138ci3t4][i:138ci3t4]
Romans 4:4 – Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. [/i:138ci3t4][/color:138ci3t4]

Look how the Jews were thought of by trying to merit Salvation through their works

Romans 9:30-32 and 10;2-3

[color=red:138ci3t4][i:138ci3t4]Rom 9:30 -32: What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Rom 10:2-4: For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. [/i:138ci3t4][/color:138ci3t4]