- May 4, 2005 at 5:48 pm #1045
Protestants say “The thief on the cross was not baptized and he went to paradise”. My reply is “Yes he went to paradise, paradise is a Greek word for Eden, and Eden as we all know is a [b:1wuvvpax]garden!!” [/b:1wuvvpax]
I continue “John the Baptist was preaching about becoming Children of God, repent and be baptized” The Protestant immediately says “John preached, repent and be baptized, nothing about becoming children.”
But this is where…. [i:1wuvvpax]they are wrong [/i:1wuvvpax]…..John calls the pharisees children of Satan. We know this because he calls them “Brood of the Viper.” The pharisees reply “Our Father is Abraham” John then tells the Pharisees God can make children from stones. Then I point out to the Protestant in the very next paragraph Jesus coming out of the water after baptism God calls Jesus “My Son”.
I mention the Queen of England has sixty five million people in her charge but only the Children of the Queen can sit on the throne, only they can enter the throne room as heirs to the throne!
The Children of God sit on the throne as the book of Revelations tells us. Others (NON BAPTIZED) are like the people of Britain, they walk around Buckinham Palace in the [b:1wuvvpax]GARDEN!!!![/[/b:1wuvvpax]size]May 4, 2005 at 8:01 pm #4388
Are you saying that the theif is NOT in heaven?
~VictorMay 5, 2005 at 7:40 pm #4394
Luke 23 40 – 43:
But the other criminal rebuked him, “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentace? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Paradise may mean eden but God shut the path to eden and no where in the Bible does he say he is going to remove the sword that blocks the path. Therefore I do not believe that “un baptised” people are going to be stuck in a garden while those who were baptised are in heaven.
I believe baptism to be an important part in your confession of faith but What about the man/woman who commits their life to christ one day in Church and while walking home are hit by a car? There was no chance to be baptised but they still confessed Jesus as their Lord and acknowledged the fact that they were sinners and needed Christ to forgive them. Therefore I believe that they would still go to heaven. This thief on the cross did not have a chance to be baptised, he realized that he needed Jesus while he was on his death bed.
– I think that about sums it up…
– SiberianMay 7, 2005 at 3:45 pm #4412
I think the good thief proved his faith in Jesus and also the thief did “Good works” by telling the other thief he was mistaken. Thus the Catholic position of “FAITH [b:2lgccxc6]PLUS[/b:2lgccxc6] GOOD WORKS” gets you into heaven.
But to say the way to the garden was gaurded by a sword and no person can enter is wrong. The book of revalations tells us Jesus has a sword coming from His mouth. Also we ALL must enter through Jesus. The Thief passed, Jesus’ judgement before death on the cross. He truly did enter ‘Through Jesus’.
Baptism makes us Children of the king. The bible tells us, some good works are better then “Faith Alone” (James)[i:2lgccxc6] I will show you my faith by my good works. [/i:2lgccxc6] Thus the people that have never heard of Jesus, can still enter heaven… “The Garden”… Lets say a Chinese Man, living in the 4th century never has heard of Jesus, BUT he was a Good loving man!
DogknoxMay 7, 2005 at 4:42 pm #4413
First off when i Said it was a sword guarding it i was refereing to this:
Genisis 3:24 – After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
I was not refering to the sword comin forth of Jesus in Revelation. I believe them to be two seperate things.
As i read the above scripture I came to realize that I may have been slightly mistaken, as to confuse entering the Garden with Eating of the Tree of Life. It says it guarded the Tree of life. Whether that means the enterance or not? I have no idea. But on a side thought, God made eden on earth correct? And in revelation it also says God will destroy the current Heaven and Earth. Creating a new Heaven and Earth. So does this mean he will make a new eden? Im not sure. Perhaps its just better to wait and find out. ” title=”Smile” />
-SiberianMay 7, 2005 at 8:06 pm #4414
As I read genesis I see God saying …
Let [b:an522nr6]US [/b:an522nr6]gaurd the tree of life. I notice US to mean Father, Son and Holy Spirit! Is not Jesus the fruit from the tree of [b:an522nr6]life[/b:an522nr6].
“I am the way the truth and the [b:an522nr6]LIFE[/b:an522nr6]”
The tree is gaurded by God.. But don’t we have to enter THROUGH Jesus? Jesus said the the thief “Today you will be with me in paradise” Jesus (God) opened the way for him. The thief entered the garden, through Jesus!
The Garden is seperate from the the throne room. The book of revalations has “the apostles sitting on thrones , around Gods great throne.” The book of Genesis has God “walking through the garden in the cool of the evening!” It is all heaven but again only the children can sit on the thrones.. As the bible tells us. Baptisem makes us Children of God.DogknoxMay 7, 2005 at 9:14 pm #4415
But how is this “garden” going to exist? If God says he is going to destroy all the earth AND heavens. Then re-create the heavens and the earth. It says in revelation that He will seperate the Sheep from the goats according to what is writen in the book of life. As i recall there are only 2 options, Sheep = Heaven… Goat = Hell… It also says that those who were killed before the time of Christ were risen from the dead and judged according to their works (or how they lived their life) We can assume that they would be classified as either a. Goats or b. Sheep. I myself do not believe that there is an alternative to Heaven or Hell… I think there is only the one, or the other. If there is scripture to prove otherwise please correct me in my fault and point it out as I have not yet come across any.
Siberian.May 10, 2005 at 12:36 am #4456
There are different forms of Baptism. Baptism by water=the usual way. Then there is Baptism by desire, where one wants to recieve it, but cannot for some reason, etc. etc. There is also Baptism by blood, i e. Martyrdom.
I believe the thief was baptized by desire.May 10, 2005 at 2:45 am #4458
That makes sense. Actually it makes a lot of sence…. AHHHH DEEP THINKING MOMENT!!! ” title=”Razz” />
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