December 6, 2004 at 4:04 am #939
Can truth be found outside of Catholicism/Christianity? I’m leaving this open ended on purpose. ” title=”Smile” />December 6, 2004 at 8:59 pm #3586
There are two ways of looking at this.
1- The obvious way: We define Catholicism/Christianity as the visible Church. It is obvious from the Bible that God has given parts of His truth to those outside the Church (such as Cornelius in Acts or the law written on our hearts).
2- The weird, technical way: Those portions of the truth found outside the visible Church are joined to the invisible Church. All truth is in the Church the Body of Christ but some of it is experienced outside the visible community of the Church.December 7, 2004 at 11:22 am #3587
I think truth can be found outside chritianity. We have so much media and resources available today, with everything being revealed.
In the end, all we are after is spiritual Truth. God is a spirit, and asks that we serve him in spirit and in truth (John 4:23). Knowledge is the key, and above all, he asks that we Love one another. it doesn’t matter how many hours you spend in church, but how you spend your life practicing forgiveness, love, compasion, mercy, truth etc. (2peter ch1:1-
I’m not a catholic. and I beleive that there are many hidden truths from us. The biggest being that God is within us all(luke 17:21) and not above the clouds as they proclaim.
People are waking up now… searching for truth. It can be found outside the catholic faith, where nothing is hidden.
E-mail me if you want to know more.December 11, 2004 at 4:13 am #3602
Ok, well, I posted the poll as kind of a trick and something to stir up discussion around here.
Basically, truth can be found anywhere, not just in the Catholic Church. However, this does not make all things that contain an element of truth wholly truthful.
God transcends everything and the earth is his creation. Therefore we can find God or his imprint in many, many things on earth outside of a Catholic, religious context.
There is truth in other religions that, in their own unique way, preach the gospel (loving your neighbor, treating other people well, etc. is found in other religions.)December 26, 2004 at 11:26 pm #3619
Peace be with you Jon,
Excellent question! This is a frequently asked question by both Catholics and non-Catholics. Most of the time it has been my experience that it is used to trap Catholics and attack the Faith. In fact the answer is yes, but one cannot experience the fullness of Christ outside the Church. This is support in many ways:
Age of the Church – 2 millennia
And much more. The Catechism and the Church even support openly that Christ can be found outside the Church. But, the fullness of Christ cannot be found outside of it. This is why we pray for the unification of Christ’s Universal Church at Mass.February 24, 2005 at 2:53 pm #3731
Black Knight MIMember
[color=darkblue:150o748p]Having wandered I know what it means to be “home” and to finally be where the fulness of the truth really is. It was not an easy journey…but it was worth it thus far and I trust Our Lord to help me to continue to walk with Him.[/color:150o748p]February 25, 2005 at 2:23 am #3754
Black Knight, I wandered in my search too and your right it is so worth being HOME and it is so Wonderful and for me its well worth the wandering and wondering what God wants for me, etc. to finally be HOME where I Belong, I had someone ask me “how do you know its home and its the right thing” I said, you just will, its such an amazing feeling, a contentment, an excitement, I actually get Goose bumps during the Mass and when I say Lord I am not worthy to recieve you but only say the word and I shall be healed, each time and I mean each time I am just shaking, with such appreciation, emotion, just a feeling I can’t begin to describe, I never ever had that when I was away from the Church, never, not once, sometimes you have to step back and really look to see just what you really had all along and oh boy did I ” title=”Very Happy” />February 25, 2005 at 3:31 am #3757
To the person who voted no…could you please share with us why you selected that option?February 27, 2005 at 6:05 pm #3795
Black Knight MIMember
[color=darkblue:13svvxh1]I believe that the search for truth is what brings us to God. Jesus said ” I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.”(John 14:6) The honest searcher will come to Him sooner or later. As with all searches it’s a journey and filled with its share of difficulties.
Can one come to God outside of Catholicism/Christianity?
I have to go along with the Catechism on this and say that if there really is only one God, then those who seek for Him, no matter their location and social traditions will be guided by the Holy Spirit to the true faith. My thought is that the Holy Spirit does indeed draw all men to God.
I have a friend we call Smiley. Smiley’s a pretty cool guy and I enjoy his company. You could say that we are friends. Smiley is a Wiccan. He has problems with most of the Christians he meets because they immediately give him a case about being a witch, satan worshipper, and all kindsa other grief. I am the only Christian that he likes and will talk to. In fact I’ve given him lots of Catholic literature to read and he’s read it, given it back, and asked for more, which I’ve happily supplied. We’ve talked a lot and he says that the reason that he hangs with me is because I don’t give him crap about being Wiccan. I know what it is..it’s nature worship, polytheistic witchcraft, but (in his case) NOT Satanic. (No point in getting into all that…and has no bearing on the fact that he needs to come to Our Lord…duh.) The reason Smiley isn’t able to talk to other Christians is because they don’t talk with him..they wanna preach… We became friends and I got to know him. As with most everyone..Smiley has a story to tell.
He was an atheist for a long time…then he was agnostic…now he’s Wiccan.
Anyone see a Holy Spirit pattern here? I pray for my buddy Smiley a lot because we’ve sort of lost touch, but I have absolutely no doubt that the Lord is drawing him to Himself by the Holy Spirit. Smiley once told me that if and when he ever does become a Christian that it would definitely be a Catholic because what we say just makes better sense. ” title=”Smile” /> Me…I’m just grateful that the Lord was able to use me in his life.
So the Lord does indeed move in mysterious ways…
Pax vobiscum,[/color:13svvxh1]February 27, 2005 at 7:13 pm #3796
[quote:1ah4kb0f]how do you know its home[/quote:1ah4kb0f]
When your desire and taste for trust becomes irresistible, when you think your heart will explode with gratitude for a trust so pure and delicious that you bang the side of your head wondering why on earth you didn’t clue in sooner. And when you become simple again.
[quote:1ah4kb0f]when I say Lord I am not worthy to recieve you but only say the word and I shall be healed, each time and I mean each time I am just shaking, with such appreciation, emotion, just a feeling I can’t begin to describe[/quote:1ah4kb0f]
I love all the words. They are like food. I love saying the words. Sometimes I don’t say them; I just listen to others say them and am so happy that there are others who can say those words. Thank you Lord for the others. And thank you for the words.
My favourite words are
[quote:1ah4kb0f]Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might,
Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.[/quote:1ah4kb0f]
If I had been saying the words up until then, then I find it very difficult to speak in the middle of the Sanctus. I feel very very heavy and very very still, peaceful, content. I do speak, but softly. Just a whisper.
I wish we had more time after Communion. I wish I could just kneel there for a half hour and not have to stand up, sit down, stand up, file out, shakes hands, and go home. Sometimes I just want to live in the Church and never go home.
When I read about Luther I find so much in common with many non-Catholics I have known. The biggest single thing is trust. Why don’t people come to the Church? Their lack of trust; their decision to transfer onto the nearest authority figure all the hurt, disappointment, and damage they have suffered in their lives by virtue of misused or abused power in the hands of those who were bigger and stronger than they were. And of course the nearest authority figure is the Church, because she [b:1ah4kb0f]is[/b:1ah4kb0f] Catholic; she [b:1ah4kb0f]is[/b:1ah4kb0f] everywhere; and she [b:1ah4kb0f]is[/b:1ah4kb0f] always near.
What was it that God said to Paul? “Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?” Then he struck him down from his high horse, blinded him, and sent him to the apostles. Well, here is the test of a reasonable person! Saul could have sat there in the dust til Kingdom come, clenching his fist at God and blaming Him for… well… everything. But he didn’t. He submitted himself to a learning moment. And he learned.
Poor old Luther had to do it his own way even when it became patently obvious to him that his own way was digging him deeper into the Pit. And of course he decided that the Church’s efforts to correct him and to prevent his private troubles from becoming public troubles were persecution.
The more I understand Luther, the more I understand many of the non-Catholics I know whose impaired trust and cognitive distortions about the Church keep them wandering.March 3, 2005 at 1:19 am #3805
I personally don’t believe the whole truth can or will be found outside of the Church. Simply because the head of the Church is Christ and Christ is the Word of God. However, this is not to say I believe that those who are not Catholic/Christian will not find truth. Also, the members of the Church only know that truth which has been revealed to them by God, and no more. Think of the Mysteries of the Rosary. They wouldn’t be Mysteries if we understood them fully.
This is of course a very shallow answer to a very deep question. My opinion: a truth cannot be found that will be in contradiction to a truth established in the Church.March 5, 2005 at 6:42 pm #3810
My general impression from reading the replies to this thread are that some people think I am asking if we can find [b:dwcnaeqv]THE[/b:dwcnaeqv] truth outside of Catholicism.
But alas, that was not the question. ” title=”Wink” />
IIRC Catholic teaching is that there is an element of truth in everything, but some things contain more truth than others.
[quote:dwcnaeqv]Can one come to God outside of Catholicism/Christianity?
I have to go along with the Catechism on this and say that if there really is only one God, then those who seek for Him, no matter their location and social traditions will be guided by the Holy Spirit to the true faith. My thought is that the Holy Spirit does indeed draw all men to God. [/quote:dwcnaeqv]
Indeed. God is so enormous and so powerful to confine him to simply one thing is a strange idea. I think God can be found in many things, but that fullness of God’s truth is found in Catholicism (much like our teaching on other Christian faiths).
Is it fair to say that those people who have never been exposed to the Gospel or Jesus cannot get to heaven or cannot find God? No, because the Holy Spirit can still work in people. I don’t know how else to phrase it other than how I just did.
Maybe someone that knows what I am talking about can help me out. ” title=”Smile” />March 11, 2005 at 5:59 am #3834
People who have never been exposed to the Church or Jesus are not intentionally working against the Truth so they cannot be held accountable for their inexposure.
In CCD class, my teachers would always use the example of somebody in the jungles of Borneo never being exposed or baptised. They can go to heaven, also God can decide who goes to heaven and who does not, he can abitrate according to how he thinks.
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