The Index (forbidden books)

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This topic contains 12 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Papa.Cod 5 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #2024

    LARobert
    Participant

    In response to Papa Cod’s question, now that we know what it is you are asking. Here is my reply.

    First the Posting that you linked us to. On the surface, at least to someone who is not versed in the Catholic Faith, the diatribe by Richard Cross looks to be honest and authentic. Poking around on his website you find a different story. That, and why I find his article to be only half the truth below.

    (Fr.) Richard Cross, has a very enviable education, Many of the men who trained at Louvain and others who trained at the Pontificum, (North American Pontifical College, in Rome) have gone on to rise to positions of great honor. But a careful review of the former Fr. Cross shows that he has an agenda, and it only telling one side of the story.
    He supports groups that advocate women’s ordination and the acceptance of gay and lesbian marriages in the Church. He also advocates for any number of ideas that the Church has for nearly 2000 years rejected. He shows a bit of this when he discusses the way American Seminarians made fun of the serious nature of the European customs and solemness at the Louvain. The Late Archbishop Sheen, who is also a graduate of the University would have had a very different take on his sarcasim. But it does give us a clue to Cross’ psyche. Cross can be counted among those on the extreme left and right who devide the Catholic Church into the Church before Vatican II and After Vatican II. The Ultra Conservatives say that the Church is no longer Catholic because of things like dropping the publication of the Index, the widespread use of Latin in the Liturgy and the priest now facing the people. The Ultra Liberals will tell you that the Church really did not get to what it should have been all along until after Vatican II, but that it still needs to jettison more.

    What Cross omits telling people about the end of the publication of the Index is that it really did not change anything. With the widespread ease of publishing books and magazines, it would be near impossible to keep the physical book titled the Index in citculation and up to date. Cross forgets to mention that the priciples of the Index are still those that any good Catholic, or Protestant, Jew or Buddhist should adhere to. Catholics are still prohibited by moral law to read, or watch (TV, Movies, Plays, Internet) anyting that would be destructive to their souls. The only difference is that today, a Catholic who has been educated in his or her Faith is expected to have the knowledge to avoid what they should avoid. That means Pornography, be it kiddie, adult, fetish etc. Writings of those who condemn or belittle the Catholic Faith or God in General. Without proper preparation the works of the Rationlists and those of Marx and Engels were and can be very compelling. More than once have I seen a college student, intellegent and top of their class be pursaded by writers who’s ideas are harmful.

    Bare with me while I wander a bit.

    For a minute let’s look at Marx, and the Communist Dialectic. Is the Catholic Church against Communism? The honest answer is NO. How can that be you ask? Well the Catholic Church has been the leading proponent of Communism since the time of Jesus. Jesus and the Apostles lived communally, gave all that they earned to the community, and shared everything they had. So too after Jesus Asension into Heaven. Catholic Convents, Abbeys and Monastic houses still do this in our own day. So Communism is not a bad thing when everyone agrees on it. Marx, and later Lenin, Mao and others however don’t stop there, they advocated violent overthrow of Govenment and Private Ownership, the liquidation of classes of people who no longer fit into the society or could not produce enough to support his fair share. Hitler’s Mein Kampf (another book placed on the Index) influenced enough German, Austrian, and other people to rally behind National Socialism. The principes of the Index were such that much like today, even if a book was not on the Index, if it detracted from Catholic Moral or Theological teachings, it was (and is) to be avoided by those who are easily influenced.

    Cross also omits, (unless I just did not see it) that there were Catholics, priests and laymen who were permitted to read books that were on the index, once they were suitably prepared by a good sound Catholic Education to read and refute the errors of the books. Now some books were on the Index, like Mgsr. Duscense because he refused to point out that some of the theories he held were not endorsed by the Church. If he had simply written that some of the speculations he made were his own, and not those of the Catholic Church his books would have been removed from the Index. In his case, he wanted his own personal ideas to be presented not as private ideas, but as equal or superior to what the Church had always taught.

    So has the Church really dropped the Index, and stopped trying to be a guiding force in the world? No. The book may no longer be in publication, but the priciples behind it, that people should avoid reading or watching those things that would be harmful to their moral or spiritual lives is still Catholic Law.

    In the Secular world we have something akin to the Index. Federal law says that I cannot make penicillin in my sink, and sell it on the open market, or claim that a new medicine I have discovered will heal you of Diabetes, and Cancer, without submitting proof the the FDA.

    #9839

    Papa.Cod
    Member

    So essentially it’s still there? The morality of the whole thing? Even if a list is not made to tell you what you can’t read? That’s dumb, and here’s why:

    1) Anything contrary to your precious Catholic teachings would be labeled as “destructive to a good Catholic’s soul.”
    2) I hope you meant communism as an idea and not as a government system. Had you meant it as a governmental system, you would be contradicting yourself because the Communist Governments, be it Lenin, Stalin, Mao, are godless. They emphasize on the leader being “God” so that all religions of that area would be labeled as “inferior.”
    3) All my school aged Catholic friends hate going to church. They hate going to classes for them to be Catholics. So you tell me who’s the better Catholic: My friends not going to classes or my friends who are “more Catholic than the Pope” and who do everything correctly and condem my other friends for not being Cathlolic enough.
    4) People are systematic creatures. They need order. They need reminders and they need structure. Taking away the Index will only lead them to ignore everyting about things “destructive to a good Catholic’s soul.”
    5) Speaking of [i:9ly5d2vd][u:9ly5d2vd]Mein Kampf[/u:9ly5d2vd][/i:9ly5d2vd] and systematic folk, I’m sure your beloved and idolized Pope knows all about that :lol:

    I’m i too rough? Let’s water down a bit, shall we?
    Where i’m getting at is i think that it doesnt matter were you get your info or who you got it from, what matters is that you have it.

    Oh, and thanks for making this whole subject for me. youre way too kind <img src=” title=”Smile” />

    #9840

    interesting!
    i’ll be tuned in to this…

    #9847

    LARobert
    Participant

    Well Pappa, you don’t let your bitterness hide under a bushell. While condemning Catholics as simple robots unable to think, I’ve not seen one statement you’ve made here that is original, nor that shows an ability to think for your own self. Pretty sad for someone who makes the charges that you make.

    Seems that you have let others decide for you that since Josef and his brother were living in Germany during WWII that he and all Germans were Nazis. Well it does not seem from the facts of his life that the people who you accept with a greater sense of obedience than any educated Catholic does the Pope have poured out a cup full of koolaide for you, and you did not sip but gulped it.

    Not enough bandwidth to battle the items you chose to attack, (with no real rationale) let alone those things you consistantly ignore.

    Where on this site have you ever read that all Catholics or all anyone will cherish the belief system or groups that they have been born into, or until they mature (and some never will) understand it? If you want to pick only those who reject what they don’t understand, well there are far more than just Catholics you can pick on. So be fair, and reject everyone and everything, because we all have among ouselves and even within ourselves faults. Your friends who are “More Catholic than the Pope” may have just as misguided an understanding of the Catholic faith as the others, I can’t see them, but from what little you describe, they lack the same mature outlook, and insight, just from the opposite pole.

    Why show your hatred by calling Pope Benedict, my beloved and idolized Pope? I don’t idolize him. I find him in his day to day dealings just as fallible as me, and not as infallible or inerrant as you seem to place yourself. What I do understand about the Pope is that he has the promise of Jesus, when he makes a binding decision about faith or morals that All christians are held too, it is not Joseph Ratzinger that guarentees it to be so, but Jesus’ promise that makes it so. Either Jesus told the truth when he promised that he would be with Peter, and as Christians have always held, Peter’s successors, or Jesus lied. If Jesus lied, please let us all know, and how you’ve decided this.

    I am not suprised that you missed the boat on the anology of Communism. Communism as a Government has worked in sectors of the Catholic Church for almost 2000 years. But on a voluntary basis, and not Athiestic Communism.

    #9850

    LARobert
    Participant
    "Papa.Cod":3cscmsrg wrote:
    So essentially it’s still there? The morality of the whole thing? Even if a list is not made to tell you what you can’t read? That’s dumb, and here’s why:

    1) Anything contrary to your precious Catholic teachings would be labeled as “destructive to a good Catholic’s soul.”

    I’m i too rough? Let’s water down a bit, shall we?
    Where i’m getting at is i think that it doesnt matter were you get your info or who you got it from, what matters is that you have it.[/quote:3cscmsrg]
    I would disagree with you about where you get your information. The source you used only told you half the story. Even if some of what he said is true on the surface, it was misleading. I’ll give you a real life example of how and why one’s source is important.

    There are those who have defamed Eugenio Pacelli as having helped Hitler, and the Nazis. They say that even though he had a position of international power he never spoke out against the Nazis or Hitler in any of his public speeches and did nothing to help the Jews, but rather helped the Nazis.

    Now it is true that he was very careful about what he said in his public speeches, and he did not use Hitler’s name during the war in his public speeches. However that does not mean that he did nothing to help the Jews.

    My own parents, Sephardic Jews, and my aunt and father were able to escape Europe because Eugenio Pacelli (or you may have heard of him by the name of Pope Pius XII) distributed orders to bishops around Europe to do what they could to help hide and remove Jews from the grips of the Nazis. Under his instructions the Jews of Rome were hidden in convents and Monastic houses around Rome. Many of these Jews were refugees from other countries. During the final days of the war in Italy, when the Allied bombs were falling, hundreds of Jews were given food and refuge in Castel Gandolfo, the Pope’s Summer residence. The Chief Rabbi of Rome became a Catholic after the war because Pius had also instructed that the Jews not be compelled to convert. (As St. Francis said, “Preach the Gospel every day; when needed use words.”) Pius did speak out against racism, Eugenics, and other crimes of the Nazi Regiem, but did not use Hitler’s name because in doing so he would have provoked more murder among the Nazis.

    So here we see that the sources that tell you that Pacelli never condemned Hitler by name (true) is the same thing as the false allegation that he did nothing to help the Jews debunks your statement. You get a true statement, a historical statement, but it is one that does not lead you to the historical truth.

    #9851

    Papa.Cod
    Member
    "LARobert":1l83awzi wrote:
    Well Pappa, you don’t let your bitterness hide under a bushell.[/quote:1l83awzi]
    Good. I’m glad i don’t. Better to show my true colors and be hated for that than to act like some person i’m not and have everyone like me.

    "LARobert":1l83awzi wrote:
    Why show your hatred by calling Pope Benedict, my beloved and idolized Pope? I don’t idolize him.[/quote:1l83awzi]
    “idolized” in just a synonym of beloved. geeze dont get your socks in a bundle. And no “good catholic” would be caught idolizing a man like him. And why would I? What’s that no-good-old-fart done for me?

    "LARobert":1l83awzi wrote:
    I am not suprised that you missed the boat on the anology of Communism. Communism as a Government has worked in sectors of the Catholic Church for almost 2000 years. But on a voluntary basis, and not Athiestic Communism.[/quote:1l83awzi]
    Take a good, hard, long look at governments like East Germany and Soviet Russia. Has communism worked out for them? apparently not. And if it has, do they use The Communist Manifesto instead of the bible in their services? Perhaps they worship it like Mary or the Pope’s position or like their grandma’s rhubarb pie. “So Fr. Smith, what passage of our wonderful book are we reading from today?” “Well Suzy, we’re going to read from the part were Mr. Marx says that all should be brainwashed in an idea that will never work in the real world.”

    Yeah. Pretty silly, huh? That’s what it sounds like to me. And maybe your pope pius dude may have saved your parents, that still doesn’t make him immortalized in the Jewsih culture let alone the rest of the world

    #9854

    LARobert
    Participant

    As usual you’ve missed the entire point, and shown yourself as unwilling at this time to be either civil, or open to new ideas. The more you post, the less tenable your position becomes. Simply attacking and name calling, and not posting any credible references, ignoring the point of posts by others show that you really have no interest in honest debate, but simply like to bully, and pitch a fit.

    Yawn… quite boring.

    #9855

    James
    Member
    "LARobert":32i79q5v wrote:
    Seems that you have let others decide for you that since Josef and his brother were living in Germany during WWII that he and all Germans were Nazis.[/quote:32i79q5v]
    Papa.Cod, you did accuse everyone in Germany to be a Nazi. Look at Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He was a Lutheran pastor who stood up against the tyranny of Nazism in Germany by preaching and saying that Nazism was completely against God’s word. You know what happened to him? He was hung by piano wire. That’s what a lot of people who spoke against Hitler: They died for their faith. They died as martyrs. There are also other Lutherans and even Catholics that died because of their unmovable faith in Christ.

    You also put up a very bad argument, Papa.Cod. I’m sorry, but I’m going to take LARobert’s side on this one. You need to start reading and understanding other’s posts. You need to read reputable resources and make better statements from them.

    #9857

    Papa.Cod
    Member

    Oh wait now youre stabbing my back and joining these people?!?! What’s wrong with you?!?!? I thought you were supposed to help me out

    #9858

    Papa.Cod
    Member

    Ok…let’s try this again…when was the index lifted and what comtemporary authors were on this list?

    #9863

    LARobert
    Participant

    The first edition was published in 1559, the 20th and final edition was published in 1948.

    On 7 December 1965, Pope Paul VI issued the Motu Proprio “Integrae servandae” that re-constituted the Holy Office as the “Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.” The Index was not listed as being a part of the newly-constituted Congregation’s competence, leading to questioning whether it still was. This question was put to Cardinal Ottaviani—Pro-Prefect of the Congregation—who responded in the negative.The Cardinal also indicated in his response that there was going to be a change in the Index soon.

    A notification of 14 June 1966 from the Congregation, which was published on the 15 June 1966 issue of the Vatican’s newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, announced that, while the Index maintained its moral force, in that it taught Christians to beware, as required by the natural law itself, of those writings that could endanger faith and morality, it no longer had the force of ecclesiastical positive law with the associated penalties.

    noteworthy Writers and religious figures on the Index include Jean Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir, Voltaire, Denis Diderot, Victor Hugo, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, André Gide, Immanuel Kant, David Hume, René Descartes, Francis Bacon, John Milton, John Locke, Galileo Galilei, Blaise Pascal, Hugo Grotius, and Saint Faustina Kowalska. Charles Darwin’s works were notably never included (it is interesting to note that civil and non-Catholic religious authorities included some of these books as being dangerous, and prohibeted their import into their terretories too.)

    Galileo was placed on the index not because of his science but because he ridiculed the Bible. Catholics are free to accept his science or reject it. If they accept his theories, they must add to them the understanding that however the universe was created, be it Galileo’s theory, Steven Hawkings, or Biblical, that it was God who was the author of Creation. While most Catholic theologians believe that Creation took place as described by most modern Scientist, and the two stories of Creations in Genesis 1 and 2 are not literal except that God brought all things into existance by His Will.

    I’ve not yet found the entire text of the last issued Index on the Internet, and my own copy is in a box somewhere, as well as in Latin, so I doubt I’ll be posting it here any time soon. But if I find a copy online, I’ll let you know.

    #9870

    Papa.Cod
    Member

    i’ll be glad once you find those items. maybe not the latin, but the copy itself

    #9894

    Papa.Cod
    Member

    y’know i kinda got to thinkin…would it be pretty sweet if the pope brought back the index? that would be awesome! I would love to see how many of my favorite tv shows would be on that list. oh, and websites for that matter

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