the existence of purgatory

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    Jon, i read your articles on purgatory and i just wanna say before i say anything that im not trying to attack you or any catholic in any way. i am a man of faith and i know that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and that we are all part of the same body.

    firstly, as a fellow Christian i know you are familiar with John 3:16. Jesus himself said that for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” right there he has directly stated that all you have to do is believe and you will have everlasting life aka salvation.

    also, it says that Jesus bore ALL our sins on the cross. why would Jesus waste his time being maliciously beaten and killed if it wasnt for all of our sins? it also says that he descended into hell in the apostles creed; therefore, he was suffering even in the afterlife for us to bear whatever sins would get us into hell.

    i am not saying that this means we can just sin whenever we want and just expect to go to heaven cuz if we truly accept Christ, that means we try our best to live for him and any sins we may commit as we go along are washed away by Jesus’s perfect blood as long as we regret them. i cant remember exactly where it is in the Bible but i also know that it says that if you confess your sins then God will be faithful to forgive you and cleanse you of all faults.

    i also saw that you wrote “to be assured of your salvation by only believing in Jesus is blasphemy” how can that be blasphemy? my favorite Bible quote Romans 10:9 says quite the opposite. it says “that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” right there it is proven that believing in Jesus is all you need to do to be assured of your salvation. a few verses later Romans 10:13 says, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” How then can we not be assured of our salvation? it is written multiple times that Jesus already achieved salvation for us and you can receive it from him simply by believing. believing in him is how we receive all our healing, not just in sin. in the eighth chapter of the gospel of Luke, a woman had a blood problem for 12 years. she went up to Jesus from behind him and touched his garment. in verse 45 Jesus asked who touched him and all had denied touching him because no one had done it intentionally except her. in verse 47, she falls before him and tells him why she touched him. it is clearly implied that she touched him because she believed that if she touched him, she would be healed, and she was for in verse 46 he says that “…virtue has gone out of me.” meaning that he had healed but not because he had chosen to. in verse 48 it says “And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith has made thee whole; go in peace.” right there in those few verses she was healed simply be her faith just as we are saved simply by believing that she would be healed by touching even the garment of Jesus.

    I hope to hear back from you Jon, may the Lord be with you.




    Welcome. What you’ve been taught is quite contrary to what the Scriptures teach. You’ve isolated one text and ignored the rest.

    Purgatory does not deny the Salvation of the Cross by any means. If you read through scripture, you will see that it teaches us much more than John 3:16, Jesus commands Baptism, the Apostles teach Jesus’ instructions when they tell us that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We also have our Lord’s teachings telling us that our souls will be tried as by a refiner’s fire. Rather than the Protestant error that not only is the guilt of sin forgiven by Christ, but the restitution to our neighbor and God for the offence is blotted out, the Catholic Church hears Jesus when in

    When the founders of various Protestant Sects decided that they and only they understood the Truth, and that all before them did not, they selected proof texts and rejected others that did not fit their presonal teachings, If you look at what the earliest Christians believed and died for, you will find it lines up with what the Catholic Church has taught since founded on the Apostles by Jesus Himself. Rather than placing your faith in one verse in the Scriptures, I’d ask you to place it in Jesus’ teachings, the entirety still preached by the Catholic Church, through which He works even today. As promised by our Lord, the Church which He would remain with even to the end of time.



    LARobert, i appreciate your feedback and i am very happy that i am able to discuss this with a brother in Christ from the Catholic Church because most of my close friends have fallen away from God. i have the people at my church but what i really needed was a Catholic to talk to about this so i really appreciate your post. however most of my post was about Jon saying that being assured of salvation by only believing in Jesus is blasphemy. honestly that was the only thing that moved me to comment.

    i have read much scripture. in fact, everything i had written up there was from what i had read in scripture. i found it somewhat insulting when you felt you needed to tell me that i would understand more than John 3:16 if i read through scripture because i made many references to scripture in my post and you made none in yours. i made the refernces even from different books and even some exact verses. i may not have had exact verses every time but i know as well as you that they are in there.

    i read the verses that Jon posted on his article but they do not confirm the existence of purgatory. the verse in 2 Maccabees is referring to those before Jesus and they, therefore, could not be purified by His perfect blood. and the verses from Matthew do not prove it either because in his first reference, he talks about how Jesus talks about the last penny needing to be paid. But hasnt Jesus paid the last penny? with his death, sin and death was conquered and ,therefore, how can our price not be paid? and the one after that just talks about the unforgivable sin and how it cant be forgiven in either life. that doesnt prove purgatory because its just saying that they wont even be shown mercy in the afterlife, not necessarily whether or not purgatory exists. but i digress, whether or not purgatory exists doesnt change the fact that you and i believe in Jesus. so even if it does, it still means we are going to be with God in Heaven for eternity. i guess i shouldnt have named this forum “the existence of purgatory”. but anyway, i hope you will share your beliefs with me on purgatory again. whether or not we come to an agreement, this is a good way to keep me in the faith. i have been going through some hard times lately and its been hard to keep the faith so discussing views on this has been very helpful. thank you again for your reply, brother in Christ. i hope to hear from you soon.




    Assurance of Salvation, or the Once Saved Always Saved error is something new in Chrisitanity, following the invention of a strict reading of Election by John Calvin. Being a teaching that was invented around 500 years ago, makes it at the very least suspect. It seems to contradict Jesus promise to never abandon the Church, or that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide it, and then abandon the Church and let it wallow in error until Luther and Calvin came along to hurl insults at each other for denying Catholic teaching by their different interpretations of Scripture.

    If for the moment we base our discussion on Scripture alone, we have to understand a few things. First the translations into English, or other modern languages can be misleading if you are not grounded in the constant teaching of the Church handed down from the Apostles who received it from Jesus Himself.

    When it come to the passages that in English read, saved, we really must look at the original Greek text. When you read it in Greek the text in the majority of cases uses a transitional verb. How does this effect the text? Well it supports the teaching that our Salvation is from Jesus, and the Cross, From the time of the Apostles up to the invention of new doctrines by Luther, Calvin and the other inventors of Protestantism 500 years ago the Catholic Church always taught that Everything we need for our Salvation was accomplished by Jesus through His Incarnation, Passion, Death on the Cross and Resurrection, so on this we agree. What happened at the Protestant Reformation was a new doctrine on how it was applied. For 15 centuries all Christians, (remember that until 1056 there was only the Catholic Church, and then the Orthodox East broke communion with the Pope.) believed that by following all the Scriptures tell us about our spiritual life we arrived at salvation. The application of the Cross, and the benefits of Christ’s sacrifice is something that is applied to us each day. Not something that we enter into and cannot break if one day we say, “I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior” but as we live a life which proclaims Jesus as our Savior. Something precious that we need to continually cooperate with, a precious gift we can loose, if we choose to defy God and reject His Grace.

    Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 – again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).

    Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

    Acts 15:11 – we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

    Rom. 5:9-10 – since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.

    Rom. 13:11 – salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?

    1 Cor. 3:15 – he will be saved, but only as through fire.

    1 Cor. 5:5 – Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.

    Now the Protestants who developed the Once Saved, Always Saved, and the idea that we “Make a Decision for Christ” based on isolating texts using the English have rejected what the scriptures really teach by proposing that all you have to do is accept Jesus, that the Holy Spirit will lead you to understand the Biblical text denying the rest of what Jesus and the Apostles taught. This has led to thousands of Protestant Sects, all with differing interpretations of the Scriptures, all claiming to be Bible Only Christians. This does not sound like the Holy Spirit, but rather other spirits to me. I am thankful to them though, if when I was still a practicing Jew, they had not made claims against the Catholic Church I would never have been motivated to check and see if their attacks were valid, and I would have never been led by God to become a Catholic.

    Now to the way the Church taught the truth from the Apostolic days forward. First the New Testament did not exhist for the first sixty years after Jesus, Passion, Death and Resurrection. Only oral tradition exhisted. It would be another two hundred plus years when a Council of the Catholic Church gathered with the Authority that Jesus gave to the Church gathered to determine which books would be included or exclueded from both the Old and New Testament. The Canon of the Old Testament for the Jews was not determined until after 600 AD. By accepting the books of the Bible, you are accepting what a group of Catholic Bishops determined, otherwise you have dozens of other books which you need to determine for yourself, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit as to their status. If your Church worships on Sunday, that too was a decision nowhere mandated by the Scriptures, but by the Authority of the Catholic Church. There are dozens of other things that your denomination and the thousands of others all who claim to be Christian do that have no warrent by Scripture, but have retained because the Catholic Church authorized them.

    As to Puragtory, first we have the unchanging teachings of the Church from Apostolic times. We have from the Earliest days of the Church letters and writings about votive offerings and prayers for the dead. While they are not equal to scripture, discounting them means that we are not open to interpreting the Scriptures, and teachings of the Apostles in a vacuum, unaided by anything except what we want to believe. Remember that there were those who left Jesus during His life because the teachings were too hard for them to accept. I’d love to believe that all I had to do was believe and not have any responsiblity to do anything else, or to be responsible for my behavior.

    As to Scripture and Purgatrory: Matt. 12:32[i:2y6glrjm] “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next[/i:2y6glrjm].” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This shows that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

    2 Tim. 1:16-18 – Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.<img src=” title=”Cool” />. Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

    Heb. 12:23 – the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

    1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 – Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

    Rev. 21:4 – God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.


    LARobert – I like your response. I just want to add one more thing, but I’m gonna quote from Catholic Answers

    [i:2m58r63i]…..The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven……

    …..The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because “[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness” (Heb. 12:11). …..

    …..Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely “covered,” if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

    Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if “covered,” remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or “purged” of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us “to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit.” Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive “for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” [/i:2m58r63i]

    Also from the Catholic Catechism we read:


    1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

    1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

    As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

    1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

    Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.[/i:2m58r63i]




    Thanks for the additional commentary. Both here and other Catholic sites there are folks who have recently been introduced into anti-Catholic rants who thinking that what they have read or heard is something new, that has never been addressed against the 2000 year constant teaching of the Catholic Church, from Apostolic days to now. Having been fed the same lies that those things the Protestants rejected were invented by the Church around the time of the invention of Protestantism they become flustered and leave once they are confronted by the truth.

    Hopefully a few will search their hearts, and investigate the Truth from a reliable source, rather than the fabrications which anti-catholic sources have told them.


    Hi all,

    wow, what an interesting discussion, I am learning so much. Although a catholic my entire life I am very silent when it comes to the depth of our own doctrines; sad to admit.

    I had a related question, a friend of mine told me, but couldn’t provide scriptural text at the moment, but the Bible states somewhere in on of the book of the Prophets or Psalm that when a person dies, nothing nor no one on earth can do anything for that person, that includes praying for them, for once they are in the ground than that’s it; they will basically rest there until the day of Judgment.

    Is this true?



    Again one of the problems with choosing just one or two verses from the Bible out of context, not just within the chapter, but with regard to the Culture and practice of the time is that you can contort the meaning.

    The Old Testament was written in Biblical Hebrew, not english. The practice of the Jews was to offer sacrifices and pray for the dead. Death is referred to in various places in the Scriptures as sleep. From that some Protestants, most of all the Adventists and Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the person is unconcious, cannot be helped, and is unaware of anything until he is raised up again. We know this to be untrue with the story of Lazerus and the Rich Man. (Luke 16) The Rich Man was aware of his own surroundings, that Lazerus was in heaven, and that his 5 brothers needed to be warned to change their lives. While a bit off the topic you asked for, those who make the allegations you mention choose those verses that seem to support their positions while omitting the rest of scripture, or it’s context.


    Hi LARobert,

    we just got off mid-terms, sorry for the late reply. First thing tomorrow morning I’m looking into this so don’t think I have neglected the forums… =).

    Like the great Terminator would say, “I’ll be back”…soon*


    His Reply:

    True, the traditions/practices of the Jews were to pray for the dead but this was never ever allowed but even warned by the Apostles of Christ during their time not to do. Colosas 2:8 NKJV – “Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.”

    Because traditions of the Jews were pagan and never according to the Law of Moses all the way to the last book of Revelation (Hence, if you read the entire bible, you cannot quote any verse from the true children of God, praying for the dead, nor the mention of a purgatory in which servants of God are in a “middle zone” before the head into Heaven or Hell.

    Eclesiastes 1:3 NKJV
    3What profit has a man from all his labor In which he toils under the sun?
    Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 NKJV
    5For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. 6Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun.

    The key phrase of “Life Under the Sun” refers to life is filled with injustice, dangers, uncertainties, events, chance, or in one word – life. Basically Solomon tries to proclaim how precious life is, because just like him and the great sin he committed, unless we cherish life, NOTHING can be done that can save us once we are dead, and in the grave, nothing can be done for us “under the sun”.

    But to reiterate, no verse (Because of it was never taught) Purgatory and the “praying for the sake of the Dead” was never practiced.

    And as far as the Lazarus and the Rich Man, is the connotation there that because a man was able to see the events or experience such events, Purgatory automatically exists? Or is it just that God willed it?

    – His reply.


    "Jeffitocorpuz":xj6v1gls wrote:
    Hi all,

    wow, what an interesting discussion, I am learning so much. Although a catholic my entire life I am very silent when it comes to the depth of our own doctrines; sad to admit.

    I had a related question, a friend of mine told me, but couldn’t provide scriptural text at the moment, but the Bible states somewhere in on of the book of the Prophets or Psalm that when a person dies, nothing nor no one on earth can do anything for that person, that includes praying for them, for once they are in the ground than that’s it; they will basically rest there until the day of Judgment.

    Is this true?[/quote:xj6v1gls]
    Hello Jeffit,


    [b:xj6v1gls]Ahem… you probably speaking of Ecclesiates, Jehovah witnesses love these Scripture to prove that after death That’s it, we dead![/b:xj6v1gls] [see below]

    Then again Jehovah Witnesses use pro 8 to show Christ created, and do not believe Christ as Divine! Is that true to you?

    Why do you give credence to stories without scriptural context from ‘friends’ yet do not accept teachings of the Church, which has a scriptural and Apostolic basis for all its teachings!

    Maccabees was part of the Hebrew Scriptures, in Jesus’ time.
    In Hebrew/ Aramaic and the Greek. The Jews celebrate their only man-made holiday from it Chanukah. They left it out of their ‘canon’ because the Maccabee’s also were allies with early Rome against their common enemy the assyrians [see 1 Macc 14:16 and a renewed alliance 1 Macc 15:15. It was embarrassing to leave that scripture in their cannon because they had been suffering for so long in Roman oppression. They also said there was no revelation of God from 300 B.c to present.

    Jews back in Jesus day prayed for their dead for 11 months after death, and still do today, in fact todays Jews do not place a tombstone on the grave for the 11 months. Biblically you never hear Jesus condemning praying for the departed, nor anywhere in the N.T.

    besides the Jews, and Protestants left out Maccabees because it was not found in the Hebrew or Aramaic However Qumran proved them wrong! Maccabees, Sirach were found among the scrolls in Aramaic and Hebrew!! Time to revise a new Protestant canon!

    Expiation of the Dead 2 Maccabees 12:38- 46.

    In case Book of Maccabees isn’t handy for you:

    vs 43- 46

    Turning to supplication, [b:xj6v1gls]they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out.[/b:xj6v1gls] The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.g
    He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem [b:xj6v1gls]to provide for an expiatory sacrifice[/b:xj6v1gls]. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind;
    for [b:xj6v1gls]if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.[/b:xj6v1gls]
    [b:xj6v1gls]But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, [/b:xj6v1gls]it was a holy and pious thought.
    Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.

    The idea that a man shows great Love for another, when he gives his life to defend another person or the community, is an ordinary one. But in this case men ‘in sin’ who had given their lives for God’s cause.

    Does not Israel fall away from God again and again?
    They pray for their sins and the sins of others, fast and sacrifice to again become a people of God in His forgiveness.

    it also says:
    Ecc 1:15 What is crooked cannot be made straight, and what is lacking cannot be numbered.

    [b:xj6v1gls]If that is true we’re all doomed[/b:xj6v1gls] and Jesus is a liar!!!

    Now:Do you believe this??? It’s scripture!

    [u:xj6v1gls]Ecc 3:19[/u:xj6v1gls] [b:xj6v1gls]For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; [/b:xj6v1gls]as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.
    20 All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.

    i:xj6v1gls]or this?[/i:xj6v1gls
    21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth?

    i:xj6v1gls]Or this???[/i:xj6v1gls

    It is the musings of human questioning the writer sees it as Humans have no advantages over animals all must die. Life, then, is an enigma beyond Human ability to solve. While rejecting the older solution of earthly rewards and punishment.Ecclesiastes looks forward to a more lasting one.

    (“For the Law brought nothing to perfection; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced as we draw closer to God” (Heb 7:19).

    Phl 3:20 But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
    21 who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.

    and if you don’t? Don’t try to use this against us!

    [b:xj6v1gls]Saduccee’s did not believe in an afterlife[/b:xj6v1gls].. they believed that they lived on through their seed, their progeny. It is called the Divine Plenty.

    It was the Pharisees who believed in an afterlife, and the Maccabees were the early Pharisees, and yes they prayed for the dead, who died in war for God’s cause and the community/nation yet had brought ‘good luck charms with them to battle.

    Now, all over the ancient catacombs are the words ‘Pray for us”
    So the early Christians/ Catholic Church believed and practiced praying for the dead. Now if they’re in heaven, they don’t need or prayers!
    If they’re in hell, there is nothing our prayers can do for them!
    So We believe there is a middle ground in which our prayers do help,
    we call this middle ground ‘Purgatory’.

    God bless,


    "Jeffitocorpuz":1nslj4r5 wrote:
    His Reply:

    True, the traditions/practices of the Jews were to pray for the dead [b:1nslj4r5]but this was never ever allowed [/b:1nslj4r5]but even warned by the Apostles of Christ during their time not to do. Colosas 2:8 NKJV – “Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.”

    Because traditions of the Jews were pagan and never according to the Law of Moses all the way to the last book of Revelation (Hence, if you read the entire bible, you cannot quote any verse from the true children of God, praying for the dead, nor the mention of a purgatory in which servants of God are in a “middle zone” before the head into Heaven or Hell.

    But to reiterate, no verse (Because of it was never taught) Purgatory and the “praying for the sake of the Dead” was never practiced.

    And as far as the Lazarus and the Rich Man, is the connotation there that because a man was able to see the events or experience such events, Purgatory automatically exists? Or is it just that God willed it?

    – His reply.[/quote:1nslj4r5]
    Hello Jeffitocupuz,
    “Empty deceit?” all this from a guy who says a friend said somewhere in the prophets or psalms it says..
    It don’t get anymore worthless than that!! Yet you passed it on?

    back up your statement ‘Never allowed!” The Jews honored their dead, named their sons after their dead They called on Abraham,carried Josephs bones for 400 yrs (Ex 13:19) and until burying him buried in Sechem, after Joshua’s death(Josh 24:32).

    and you simply say Not allowed? Where is that specifically in scripture, cause if you’re holding us to specifics and then and then ignore them, you bring up rhetoric and ask us to hold onto that as Truth???

    [u:1nslj4r5]Col 2:8[/u:1nslj4r5] doesn’t prove that!!
    It is about pursuing mystical experiences through ascetic practices
    [severe self discipline and abstention from all forms of indulgence/ proto gnostic thought] Jewish practices that did not focus on Christ.

    How about Hbr 13:7 “Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith”

    [u:1nslj4r5]CCC# 956[/u:1nslj4r5] “The intercession of the saints. “Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.” (1 Tim 2:5)
    Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.496
    I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.497

    [u:1nslj4r5]#957[/u:1nslj4r5] Communion with the saints. “It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself”498:

    We worship Christ as God’s Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord’s disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!499
    [u:1nslj4r5]#958 [/u:1nslj4r5] Communion with the dead. “In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and ‘because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins’ she offers her suffrages for them.”500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

    Pious Jews practicing pagan practices?? Sorry No. Sorry washing hands was good hygiene some Jews made it greater process than it needed to be, on both sides of the fence.

    It was the law:

    Exd 30:21 They shall wash their hands and their feet, lest they die: it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his descendants throughout their generations.”

    Exd 30:19 with which Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet.

    Instances cropped up and then people would ask how to wash their hands?

    Job 9:30 If I wash myself with snow, and cleanse my hands with lye.

    Paul backs up Tradtions:
    Gal 1:14 and I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.

    1:13 “My former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it”

    David Guzik, Protestant commentary:

    : [b:1nslj4r5]Paul’s credentials as a zealous Jew[/b:1nslj4r5], persecuting Christians, are beyond doubt. Acts 8:1-3 and 9:1-2 describe Paul’s energetic persecution of Christians.

    i. This shows that Paul was not looking for some other truth when he was first confronted with the gospel of Jesus. Unfortunately, many of those who are seeking a “new revelation” will find it – and find deception that draws them away from Jesus Christ (like a young Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church)

    Jesus did not condemn all traditions:
    Protestant Commentary on Mark 7:3,
    iv. “There had grown up a great body of traditions; traditions which in the first place were intended to be interpretations of the law, and applications of the law to local circumstances; traditions which in the second place became interpretations of traditions, and applications of traditions; and the traditions in the third place, which were interpretations of interpretations of interpretations of traditions!” (Morgan)

    There was and is a great Oral Tradition which Jesus and the Bible affirms when he tells the people to listen to the oral teachings

    Mat 23:2 “The scribes and the Pharisees [b:1nslj4r5]sit on Moses’ seat;[/b:1nslj4r5]
    23:3 [b:1nslj4r5]so practice and observe whatever they tell you,[/b:1nslj4r5] but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

    They read Scripture standing, and sat to expound/ teach the meaning.
    That it is the Church that holds the manifold of wisdom, Not the Bible:
    Eph 3:9-11
    to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things;
    10 [b:1nslj4r5]that through the church the manifold wisdom of God [/b:1nslj4r5]might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.
    11 This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,

    That it is the Church that is:

    1Ti 3:14-15 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that,
    if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in [b:1nslj4r5]the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.[/b:1nslj4r5]
    The bible is still has not been written as of yet, and it is by Oral- Tradition, Instruction and witness that spreading the Gospels.

    Like it or not Priests have been Bridges between God and His word to His People

    Neh 8:8 And they read from the book, from the law of God, clearly; and they gave the sense, so that the people understood the reading.

    God bless,

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