April 9, 2006 at 11:29 pm #1199
[color=red:3237nags]Why do some Catholic Church’s when the creed is read they omit “he descended into Hell”? I know my church St.Peters omits saying that.[/color:3237nags]
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.
Amen.April 10, 2006 at 1:59 am #5958
I’m not sure, but “descended into hell” is a poor translation. He actually went into an underworld where those who had died and would go to heaven were waiting for him, the messiah, to come and take them to heaven.
Once someone is in hell they can’t get out. It’s eternal.April 10, 2006 at 3:52 pm #5959
Me either. But the way Jon noted it is how I understood it. In Luke 16 the rich man who’s sin was ignoring the poor pleads to Abraham for his five brothers. It has always been my understanding that in Judaism there was 3 different places one could go to after death. One was a primitive understanding of purgatory where Abraham shares a “place” (my word) with the rich man suffering.
The place where we are purged of disordered self-love:
Hebrew: Sheol…R.L. Harris is known to call it solely a grave. Most scholars disagree. This world is commonly used in the OT as a place where both evil and good go. Waiting for final judgement.
[quote:2ctr7r9z]”Gehenna” is the word that Jesus uses for hell fire or hell. That’s actually borrowed from the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, “ge-hin-nom,” the valley of hin-nom, which was where King Manasus sacrificed thousands of Israelite children to Molek, a demon god. After that nobody wanted to live in such defiled land, so it became the garbage dump, with fires continually burning. Nobody wanted to get near it because of defilement. It was a haunt of demons. [/quote:2ctr7r9z]
And then you have heaven.April 10, 2006 at 5:25 pm #5960
Just before Jesus died he said, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me”? God left him at that time too. So according to the above statement , he was suffering hell because he was “disconnected ” from God.
I DONT think hell is a physical place and is that ones soul is permanently disconnected from God that one suffers so greatly.April 10, 2006 at 6:09 pm #5961
[quote:1cqh5fmq]Just before Jesus died he said, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me”? God left him at that time too. So according to the above statement , he was suffering hell because he was “disconnected ” from God.
I DONT think hell is a physical place and is that ones soul is permanently disconnected from God that one suffers so greatly.[/quote:1cqh5fmq]
Where do you think the people that want [b:1cqh5fmq]nothing[/b:1cqh5fmq] to do with God will go?April 10, 2006 at 6:35 pm #5962
There souls will be disconnected from God and that is there eternal hell.I believe there are billions of souls in the outer universe and some are saved(with God) and some are dammed(Hell). I often wondered about the people who lived before God (like 4,500BC) were they condemned for there sins,or did they even know about sin before God?.April 10, 2006 at 6:45 pm #5965
[quote:1aivcfx5]Just before Jesus died he said, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me”? God left him at that time too. So according to the above statement , he was suffering hell because he was “disconnected ” from God.[/quote:1aivcfx5]
God could not have left Jesus because Jesus is God…Jesus can’t leave himself. Jesus is in fact showing his human side with that statement.
Jesus never went to hell. He suffered and it may have felt like hell, but he never was disconnected from God. He cannot be disconnected from himself.April 10, 2006 at 6:46 pm #5966
[quote:mpl4jp40]There souls will be disconnected from God and that is there eternal hell.I believe there are billions of souls in the outer universe and some are saved(with God) and some are dammed(Hell). I often wondered about the people who lived before God (like 4,500BC) were they condemned for there sins,or did they even know about sin before God?.[/quote:mpl4jp40]
So what is it about hell being a physical place that you don’t like exactly?
It would seem to me that seperation from God is what makes Hell, Hell. It being a physical place, is the least of your problems at that point.April 10, 2006 at 6:53 pm #5968
(Your comment)It would seem to me that seperation from God is what makes Hell
AMEN,Thats exactly what I was saying.April 10, 2006 at 6:57 pm #5969
Jon,maybe I was mislead all my life,but wasent God present before Jesus was born?or are you just joshing me?April 10, 2006 at 7:29 pm #5970
[quote:2zk4tw36](Your comment)It would seem to me that seperation from God is what makes Hell
AMEN,Thats exactly what I was saying.[/quote:2zk4tw36]
I know that is what you are saying, but what exactly bothers you about it being a PHYSICAL place?April 10, 2006 at 7:53 pm #5971
[quote:30suzn7g]Jon,maybe I was mislead all my life,but wasent God present before Jesus was born?or are you just joshing me?[/quote:30suzn7g]
Yes, he was, but God came to earth in the form of a human. The Catholic Church maintains that Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine.
God was always present in Father, Son and Holy Spirit.April 10, 2006 at 8:21 pm #5972
O.k but when Jesus was dieing on the cross and said “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me” was he talking to himself? if he was Jesus and God at that moment why would he say this.April 10, 2006 at 8:31 pm #5973
[quote:1t02d2hq]O.k but when Jesus was dieing on the cross and said “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me” was he talking to himself? if he was Jesus and God at that moment why would he say this.[/quote:1t02d2hq]
Here is just one example of how the early christians understood it.
[color=blue:1t02d2hq][i:1t02d2hq]”But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of spirit, the understanding and reason of the Father is the Son of God. But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind, had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos.” Athenagoras, Plea for Christians, 10 (A.D. 177). [/i:1t02d2hq][/color:1t02d2hq]
The Trinity is not something that we are expected to understand in it’s totality. From our standpoint, He does indeed seem to be talking to Himself.
Hope that helps.April 12, 2006 at 5:32 am #5986
This is a common misunderstanding among many Protestants. Too many believe that Jesus is saying God has forsaken Him when it is actually the contrary.
Jesus is quoting Psalm 22:
Unto the end, for the morning protection, a psalm for David.
O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins.
O my God, I shall cry by day, and thou wilt not hear: and by night, and it shall not be reputed as folly in me.
But thou dwellest in the holy place, the praise of Israel.
In thee have our fathers hoped: they have hoped, and thou hast delivered them.
They cried to thee, and they were saved: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
But I am a worm, and no man: the reproach of men, and the outcast of the people.
All they that saw me have laughed me to scorn: they have spoken with the lips, and wagged the head.
He hoped in the Lord, let him deliver him: let him save him, seeing he delighteth in him.
For thou art he that hast drawn me out of the womb: my hope from the breasts of my mother.
I was cast upon thee from the womb. From my mother’s womb thou art my God,
Depart not from me. For tribulation is very near: for there is none to help me.
Many calves have surrounded me: fat bulls have besieged me.
They have opened their mouths against me, as a lion ravening and roaring.
I am poured out like water; and all my bones are scattered. My heart is become like wax melting in the midst of my bowels.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue hath cleaved to my jaws: and thou hast brought me down into the dust of death.
For many dogs have encompassed me: the council of the malignant hath besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet.
They have numbered all my bones. And they have looked and stared upon me.
They parted my garments amongst them; and upon my vesture they cast lots.
But thou, O Lord, remove not thy help to a distance from me; look towards my defence.
Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword: my only one from the hand of the dog.
Save me from the lion’s mouth; and my lowness from the horns of the unicorns.
I will declare thy name to my brethren: in the midst of the church will I praise thee.
Ye that fear the Lord, praise him: all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him.
Let all the seed of Israel fear him: because he hath not slighted nor despised the supplication of the poor man. Neither hath he turned away his face form me: and when I cried to him he heard me.
With thee is my praise in a great church: I will pay my vows in the sight of them that fear him.
The poor shall eat and shall be filled: and they shall praise the Lord that seek him: their hearts shall live for ever and ever.
All the ends of the earth shall remember, and shall be converted to the Lord: And all the kindreds of the Gentiles shall adore in his sight.
For the kingdom is the Lord’s; and he shall have dominion over the nations.
All the fat ones of the earth have eaten and have adored: all they that go down to the earth shall fall before him.
And to him my soul shall live: and my seed shall serve him.
There shall be declared to the Lord a generation to come: and the heavens shall shew forth his justice to a people that shall be born, which the Lord hath made.
Notice how the lament at the beginning of the Psalm is dramatic. Throughout the Psalm, David has faith.
[quote:1srx41tq]Jon,maybe I was mislead all my life,but wasent God present before Jesus was born?or are you just joshing me?[/quote:1srx41tq]Jesus has always been God but He has not always been man.
In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God. … And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth. (John 1:1,14)July 10, 2012 at 2:21 pm #10408
I have always believed the Trinity to be God in three persons but of one mind and one accord…They would have to be separate entities in order for us to be co heirs with Christ, and to understand the verse no one comes to the Father except thru Jesus the Son. They will never be in disagreement but are separate entities..Example: Jesus’ baptism, God spoke and said this is my beloved Son, when Jesus ascends into heaven and says I will send a comforter, (the Holy Spirit),July 12, 2012 at 7:42 am #10420
The three persons of the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are eternal, and equal. While they are individual persons, they are the same God. Jesus humanity came into existance in time, but His divinity is eternal.
What it is hard for us to conceive, and many misunderstand it, or even teach something else, Jesus is 100% Man and 100% God. Not 50/50. As the Creed tells us He is True God and True Man.
One of the problems we have with the Creed, be it translated into traditional english, or modern english, we are limited by it being a translation. Since it was first written in Greek, and translated nearly immediatly into Latin, the term we see in english as hell, does not mean the hell of the damned, but rather the waiting place of the Fathers, those who died before the crucifixion, awaiting the redeeming actions of the cross. There are many words which when translated into a living language like english can have different meanings, this is just one example. It is also why I enjoy the study of the faith, because there is so much one can learn, the Truths Jesus taught and the Apostles handed on to the Church can fill your life with so much richness, that there is always something new to learn.
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