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June 13, 2010 at 6:59 am #9860AnonymousInactive
You are getting closer.
The Scriptures tell us nothing impure may enter heaven. Jesus taught about God’s love being like a refiners fire. Other teachings of Jesus that come to us from the Apostles in the Epistles and the Apocolypse speak of our responsibility for our sins. From the days of the Apostles, Christians have believed that God will purify us before we enter into heaven. That is what Puragtory is, a state of purification before someone enters into heaven.
In this life it is hard for us to conceive of a state where there is no time, and as we do not know how the cleansing takes place, we use examples of cleansing, as did Jesus, which we can understand. We know that there is no physical fire in purgatory, because it is a place where the soul, and not the body is purified. However we do sometimes read it as being a place where (spiritual) fire is used to purify us. We also read that God’s love is like a white hot flame, so intense and powerful that it purifies all that it makes contact with. All these are used to explain to us by anology the concepts of what it is like outside of time and space.June 13, 2010 at 7:07 am #9862AnonymousInactive
did you mean to say apocolypse? isn’t that another term for the end of times?June 13, 2010 at 12:47 pm #9865About Catholics TeamKeymaster"Papa.Cod":11r1l8uv wrote:did you mean to say apocolypse? isn’t that another term for the end of times?[/quote:11r1l8uv]
Apocalypse is another name for the book of Revelation.June 13, 2010 at 2:57 pm #9866AnonymousInactive
Jon is alway short and to the point, I tend to just write on and on.
The confusion over Apocolypse does point out a common problem between divergent groups. We can use the same vocabulary but have widely different meanings for those same words.
An example would be a discussion group that I partiicpate in. I used to teach a series of Sacred Scipture Classes at an Anglican Seminary. They wanted me to round out the students understanding by presenting both the Catholic and Jewish understandings of the Scriptures, since I have both.
Some may know that there have been talks between the Worldwide Anglican Communion and the Catholic Church for several decades now. There are whole parishes and groups of Anglicans who after much discussion have become Catholic, some of the groups, (Anglican Use) have been allowed to preserve those aspects of their unique Anglican customs and ritual that do not conflict with Catholic customs.
Well getting to the point of vocabulary, I used a term on this discussion board that some of the Anglican and Eastern Orthodox clergy understood in context, but many did not. The discussion was about how many of the Anglicans on the list would remain Anglican, how many were considering becoming Catholic or Orthodox. I mentioned that some of my former students who are now Anglican and Episcopalian priests have said publicly that they wish to become Roman Catholics but hold an occult stance that they will not accept either the Immaculate Conception or the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope. A few on the discussion list thought I was calling these Anglican priests “Devil Worshipers” because they were unaware of the older use of the word occult.
The word occult means hidden, only recently has it come to have anything to do with Satanism, or the Devil. When used to mean the latter, it is usually capitalized, and used in context. However the manner I used the word was clear to many that I was referring to the fact that these men were saying one thing in public but secretly (in an occult or hidden manner) they did not accept everything that they would have to if they did become Catholics, with their goal of being ordained as Catholic priests for the Anglican Use.
the term occult is also used in medicine, there are tests that look for “occult blood” an example would be when urine is examined for infections of the kindneys or the bladder, a lab will look for white or red blood cells that you cannot see with the naked eye. When found by a chemical reaction or under the microscope, it can be a sign of kidney stones, cancer or an infection, and lets the doctor know that there is a problem that needs to be looked into. In the science of Moral Theology, the term occult (small o) is used to describe a hidden sin, however it does not imply Satan worship, simply something that someone has hidden.
So it does point out that when Catholics and non-Catholics hold a discussion it is best to understand how the other is using vocabulary. There are many more differences in how people interpret words, some Anti-Catholic writers use this to their advantage, and mislead readers into making the Catholic Church seem to teach things it does not.June 16, 2010 at 6:55 am #9869AnonymousInactive
hmmm…so should people just start picking up dictionaries or are these terms of much older use?June 17, 2010 at 2:52 am #9874AnonymousInactive
It never hurts to expand your vocabulary and read a wide selection of good wholesome, and learned authors.June 17, 2010 at 6:30 am #9878AnonymousInactive"LARobert":cnja0tn7 wrote:It never hurts to expand your vocabulary and read a wide selection of good wholesome, and learned authors.[/quote:cnja0tn7]
I’m sure this doesn’t restrict itself to theological authors ” title=”Razz” /> What would you say are “good, wholesome and learned authors” LARobert? It’s kinda hard for the younger generations to find good authors for reading and siting sources (kinda like Papa.Cod)June 17, 2010 at 2:17 pm #9883AnonymousInactive
There are a number of lists of good authors, (Religious and non-Religious) I’ll look for lists, and add a few of my own when I get the chance.June 17, 2010 at 6:43 pm #9887AnonymousInactive
Sounds good ” title=”Smile” />June 19, 2010 at 5:12 am #9891AnonymousInactive"James":2wliojzx wrote:It’s kinda hard for the younger generations to find good authors for reading and siting sources (kinda like Papa.Cod)[/quote:2wliojzx]
Oh gee thanks James, you douchebag.June 21, 2010 at 1:25 am #9920AnonymousInactive
just wondering, are people who are in a state of mortal sin, are their prayers for the dead profitable? i know that priest in mortal sin can still transubstantiate bread and wine, but how about lay people? are their prayers for the dead working?June 21, 2010 at 2:16 am #9923AnonymousInactive
While the gaining of an indulgence requires one to be in a state of grace, even if one is in a state of mortal sin, ones prayers will be heard by God. That one is offering prayers for the faithful departed is a sign of one’s acceptance of God’s Justice, and desire to repair the breech between God and themselves. It does however bring up a couple of other things.
Mortal Sin: To commit a mortal sin, a person has to know that what they are doing is gravely offensive to God, and will to do it anyway. As an example; prior to the relaxation of the laws of fast and abstinance by Pope Paul VI, it was a mortal sin for healthy Catholics between the ages of (around) 7 and 65 to eat fleshmeat on Fridays. If you were sick and you needed to have meat or meat broth, if you would otherwise starve, or put health into grave danger, or if you forgot it was Friday, you would not have willed or desired to offend God. So even if you commited an act that was mortally sinful, you would have not met the requirements for the sin to be a mortal sin. You really have to work at it to commit a mortal sin.
Some deny that the Church has the authority to make and unmake laws like the laws of fast and abstinance, the Bible says otherwise. We are told in the Bible that we are to be obedient to our religious superiors. St. Paul calls himself the spiritual father of those subject to him. Ananaias and Saphorah were struck dead, when they lied to the Apostles, it was the same as telling a lie to the Holy Spirit.
Forgiveness of Sin: God forgives our sins, the manner he gave us is clear in the Bible, Jesus laid hands on the Apostles, and breathed on them, both Jewish rites for transmitting authority, telling them that whomever they forgave sins was forgiven, and whomever they retained (did not forgive) their sins were retained. As Catholics we believe that confessing to a priest, or bishop who are succssors of the Apostles, and have been given the authority to forgive sins in the name of Jesus, we also have to be sorry for our sins, and have the intention to reform our lives. We also believe that if there is no priest to hear our confession, we can make an act of perfect contrition, or tell God that we are sorry for our sins because they offend Him, and ask for forgiveness, we will be forgiven. Once a priest is availible, we should then confess our sins, so we can have the assurance that Jesus gave us when he gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins in His name.
There is a priciple in Catholic theology, “The salvation of souls is the highest law” So we know that if there is no priest availible, and we are forgiven if we are contrite. If there is no priest to be had, we can baptize. If there is no priest we can still keep Sunday holy, and we can marry within Catholic law, with two Catholic witnesses, and it is a valid marriage. God and the Church hold us to what we have access to, and will not hold us to a standard that we cannot meet. So if there is no priest on Sunday, we still have the obligation to keep the day holy, but do not sin by missing Mass, since there is no Mass to attend.June 21, 2010 at 6:30 am #9927AnonymousInactive"LARobert":28top7f9 wrote:While the gaining of an indulgence requires one to be in a state of grace, even if one is in a state of mortal sin, ones prayers will be heard by God. That one is offering prayers for the faithful departed is a sign of one’s acceptance of God’s Justice, and desire to repair the breech between God and themselves.
There is a priciple in Catholic theology, “The salvation of souls is the highest law”[/quote:28top7f9]
I was wondering if you could go into further detail of these statements, please ” title=”Smile” />June 21, 2010 at 7:21 am #9928AnonymousInactive
do lutherans believe in purgatory also???June 21, 2010 at 3:04 pm #9931AnonymousInactive
As children of God, even if we commit a mortal sin, and ourselves reject God; He remains a loving Father, and sends graces that we can use to restore our relatioship with Him. While we have cut ourselves off from Him, He always listens, and gives us the respect we sometimes deny Him, by being ever ready to accept us back.
The Salvation of Souls being the Supreme law means that, if sometimes one cannot follow the law, and can obtain the salvation of a soul without doing something evil then one can presume the permission to save that soul.
Lets use the example of a priest in Mortal Sin offering a Mass. First since Jesus is the primary celebrant of every Mass, as both Priest and Vicitim, and the Mass is not simply an act of the individual priest, the Mass itself is an action of God, no simply a rite of Man.
A priest who commits a mortal sin must be sorry for his sin, confess and be absolved before he offers a Mass, or he commits another Mortal sin. Now let us consider that the priest committed a Mortal sin, there is no other priest to hear his confession, and it is a Sunday or Holy Day of obligation, and there are a group of people who have the obligation to hear Mass. The priest can make an act of perfect contrition, and offer Mass so they may fulfill their obligation to worship God. While the priest has not gone to confession, (and must as soon as he is able) he does not sin by offering the Mass, because he did so not to be disobedient but because there were sould that needed to fulfill their obligation to worship God.
Now lets consider something less grave. A priest who uses the 1962 Missal is required to use a chalice and paten that has been consecrated jn a special rite by a bishop. The rite requires holy water, and holy oil, and a special rite. Under a church law that says he sins if he knowingly uses a chalice and paten that are not consecrated. A priest has a chalice and paten that are not consecrated. Priests are allowed to consecrate the chalice and paten only with a special indult, or permission from the bishop. If the priest cannot contact the bishop prior to using the chalice, he can safely presume that if he was able to contact the bishop and explain why he needed the permission to consecrate them, he would be be granted the permission. So the priest consecrates them without obtaining the permission and offers the Mass. Strictly speaking he has broken Church law, but the circumstances are such that he did what had to be done without doing something evil to help the souls of his flock.
One last example. Only human beings can be baptized. Unless one has the intent to not baptize, (an example is seminarians practice the rites before they are ordained deacons using a doll, to learn how to preform the rite, and they don’t intend to baptize the doll, which has no soul. So there is no baptism.) In the Middle Ages, when people did not understand that a child who was born with gross deformities was a full human being, the popular belief was that some animals or other creatures would sneak into a woman’s bedroom at night and impregnate her. Since it was unclear to them at that time if the child was a human or not, the Church had a rite called the Baptism of Monsters. (Monster was used at that time to denote grave deformities, not the mytlical creatures we see in modern comics and sci-fi) The priest or person baptizing would say, “If you are human; I baptize you…” The possiblity that there was a human soul, was enough to allow for the person who they were not sure of to be baptized, on the chance that there was a soul that could be saved.June 21, 2010 at 5:14 pm #9934AnonymousInactive"passionately_catholic":933vxlrr wrote:do lutherans believe in purgatory also???[/quote:933vxlrr]
No. Purgatory is specifically a Catholic Doctrine.June 21, 2010 at 5:17 pm #9935AnonymousInactive
And thank you for your explanations, LARobert. They’re insightful; as alwaysJune 21, 2010 at 6:03 pm #9937AnonymousInactive"James":28rs5x1m wrote:"passionately_catholic":28rs5x1m wrote:do lutherans believe in purgatory also???[/quote:28rs5x1m]
No. Purgatory is specifically a Catholic Doctrine.[/quote:28rs5x1m]
While Lutherans do not hold purgatory as a doctrine, some Anglicans and a Few Orthodox do.
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