June 4, 2010 at 1:05 am #2022
is it an official belief of the church that it is possible for a person to escape purgatory if he’s saved by the people he helped out of purgatory?
if this is true then, wouldnt it be possible that that person would still choose purgatory if he thinks he’s not good enough for heaven?(and refuse the help of the people who got out of purgatory)
if the first question is not true then i get it; purgatory would still be on the sceneJune 4, 2010 at 2:09 am #9804
After we die we are judged by God in a personal judgement. At that point we understand exactly how our sins offended God, and the true justice of God. Justice is rendering unto one his due. That includes due punishment and due reward. So we will know what our just punishment is and accept it.June 4, 2010 at 2:54 am #9806
We do not choose purgatory, God chooses it for us if we need it.June 5, 2010 at 7:35 am #9808
Soooooo if he (god) finds you so pure in life he’ll grant you a free pass to heaven? Sounds kinda sketchy…June 5, 2010 at 8:12 am #9811
Papa.Cod, Please look at LARobert’s explanation. It sounds pretty good. I’m also sure that there’s an article somewhere on this sight you can read to get a better ideaJune 5, 2010 at 1:48 pm #9812"Papa.Cod":26pu8g1r wrote:Soooooo if he (god) finds you so pure in life he’ll grant you a free pass to heaven? Sounds kinda sketchy… [/quote:26pu8g1r]
God is the ultimate judge afterall…June 5, 2010 at 9:36 pm #9814"Papa.Cod":30j5kz9f wrote:Soooooo if he (god) finds you so pure in life he’ll grant you a free pass to heaven? Sounds kinda sketchy… [/quote:30j5kz9f]
Nobody gets a free pass to heaven. We have to cooperate with God’s will, and strive to live a life of virtue. God’s judgement, which is completely Just, would not allow for a free pass.
The scriptures tell us we will be tried as gold by a refiner’s fire.
From this we can surmise that our souls are by virtue of being created by God very precious to Him. However we rarely find a nugget of gold that is pure gold, with no additional metals, dirt or other impurities. To get to the pure gold, it must be washed, and refined to remove the impurities. Some have depicted Purgatory as a cleansing (or Purging) Fire, although theologically since we are talking about souls, it would not be a physical fire.June 6, 2010 at 4:00 am #9816
But why is Purgatory an idea in your church? I mean no offense, but I find it strange and frightning that you guys would believe that you wouldn’t go into God’s hands directly after your death, for all of us are his creation but into a fiery place to wash yourselves. And since you said “strive to live a life of virtue,” shouldn’t that mean Catholics believe in good works saving them? and you mention “God’s judgement” and how it’s Just, you seem to miss the whole point of Christ’s existance on earth: To redeem us from our sin through his graceJune 6, 2010 at 4:57 am #9817"Papa.Cod":xa065037 wrote:But why is Purgatory an idea in your church? I mean no offense, but I find it strange and frightning that you guys would believe that you wouldn’t go into God’s hands directly after your death, for all of us are his creation but into a fiery place to wash yourselves. And since you said “strive to live a life of virtue,” shouldn’t that mean Catholics believe in good works saving them? and you mention “God’s judgement” and how it’s Just, you seem to miss the whole point of Christ’s existance on earth: To redeem us from our sin through his grace[/quote:xa065037]
Why Purgatory? Well first of all it is Biblical. The Catholic Faith being Scriptural teaches what Jesus taught. No Catholic who knows his faith would say that Salvation is possible without Christ. Our works are of no use if we are not living a life of sanctifying grace, and do not unite our intentions with Christ. It is ignorance of the authentic teachings of the Catholic Faith that they are taught that Catholics do not believe Jesus is the source and reason for our salvation. Follow the link below, as it would be redundant to retype the various verses, and historicity of the teachings of the Church on Purgatory, as evidenced by the Christians from the time of the Apostles down to our present day.
If we look at what many Protestant sects teach, it is a trunkated Bible, a “proof text” here or there, ignoring the other references in Scripture that give one a whole picture of salvation.
The main difference between Catholic and Protestant doctrine is that many Protestant sects isolate “proof texts” out of historical and lingustic context, they ignore the rest of Scipture and make one text say what they want it to say.
If I told you that my car runs by Gas, it would be true. However it runs by Gas, a carburator, spark plugs, points, rotor, wires, condensor, any any number of other parts. When a Catholic looks at the Scriptures, he looks at it as an entire history of salvation, not as a dead book of rules, but a living text, not living on it’s own but by the very Church through which God gave the Scriptures through, guided by the Holy Spirit, as promised by Jesus. The Scriptures themselves do not tell us to decide for ourselves the meaning of Scipture, after all the Ethiopian was intelligent (and spiritually decserning enough) to know that he could not understand the Scriptures unless someone teach him. The scriptures also tell us the St. Paul had become a Father to those he converted. We are also admonished in Heb. 13:17, [quote:xa065037]Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.[/quote:xa065037]
In this passage we see two things, first the notion held by many Protestants that Christian is the arbitrator of the truth himself, and you will not, that those who have rule over us will have to give account of what they have done. Just as in Scrioture Jesus tells us that we have to give account for ourselves. If there is no personal responsibility, and consequence for our actions because we just deliver ourselves to God and no longer have any responsiblity, than we had better get out the whiteout so the Scriptures will conform to the theology of modern-day evangelical/Baptist/SDA etc.June 6, 2010 at 6:06 pm #9818
I find it funny how you catholics contradict yourselves by saying “we’re all about the bible” and “we gotta look at things historically” yet you have nothing to show but good works and ignorance in things like the inquisition in Spain or the selling of salvation through a stupid peice of paperJune 6, 2010 at 7:12 pm #9819"Papa.Cod":toua64s4 wrote:I find it funny how you catholics contradict yourselves by saying “we’re all about the bible” and “we gotta look at things historically” yet you have nothing to show but good works and ignorance in things like the inquisition in Spain or the selling of salvation through a stupid peice of paper[/quote:toua64s4]
Having investigated the Catholic Church and Protestant Churches before my conversion to Chrisitanity, I can honestly say that your statement above are based on anti-catholic sources that ignore what the Catholic Church teaches. Your postings completely ignore what is posted, and what the Catholic Church teaches, and has taught since the time of the Apostles. A full 1,500 years before Protestant theology was developed. Show proof from authentic Catholic sources that what you claim is true. A read of the Catechim of the Catholic Church on God, and on the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, his Savlific actions, would show you that the bias you have been taught is akin to the misrepresentation given to Saul about the Church when he travelled to Damascas in order to arrest and persecute the Church.
Start here. (Do actually read what the Catholic Church teaches, not what some self styled Anti-Catholic tells you the Catholic Church teaches.)
[u:toua64s4][i:toua64s4][b:toua64s4]What the CCC actually says[/b:toua64s4][/i:toua64s4][/u:toua64s4]
169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.
178 We must believe in no one but God: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16).
457 The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who “loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins”: “the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world”, and “he was revealed to take away sins”:
[i:toua64s4]Sick, our nature demanded to be healed; fallen, to be raised up; dead, to rise again. We had lost the possession of the good; it was necessary for it to be given back to us. Closed in the darkness, it was necessary to bring us the light; captives, we awaited a Savior; prisoners, help; slaves, a liberator. Are these things minor or insignificant? Did they not move God to descend to human nature and visit it, since humanity was in so miserable and unhappy a state?[/i:toua64s4]
Christ’s death is the unique and definitive sacrifice
613 Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”, and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.
614 This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices. First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience.June 6, 2010 at 11:35 pm #9821"Papa.Cod":3u6d0nr6 wrote:I find it funny how you catholics contradict yourselves by saying “we’re all about the bible” and “we gotta look at things historically” yet you have nothing to show but good works and ignorance in things like the inquisition in Spain or the selling of salvation through a stupid peice of paper[/quote:3u6d0nr6]
dude, we’re not ignorant of that, we just know that those people who did that were Catholics by name only, and by their evil actions they already excommunicated themselvesJune 7, 2010 at 1:52 am #9822"Papa.Cod":2ui6gbm7 wrote:I find it funny how you catholics contradict yourselves by saying “we’re all about the bible” and “we gotta look at things historically” yet you have nothing to show but good works and ignorance in things like the inquisition in Spain or the selling of salvation through a stupid peice of paper[/quote:2ui6gbm7]
OK, now let’s address what you bring up about the Spanish Inquistion.
When the Inquisition was initally established, in Europe it was sanctioned by the Pope, it had standards so rigid as to fairness in the trial, and the right to have a defense, (Something that was not allowed by Civil courts, and later by Protestant Inquisitions which I will speak of later) that there were thousands who petitioned to have their cases be transferred from the Civil Courts to the Inquisition.
In Spain there were abuses, the rules that the Pope had approved were not followed, to the extent that even Two Popes suspended and Censured the Spanish Inquisition, which had simply become a tool of the State. While Foxe and his fables in the “Book of Martyrs” counts thousands tortured and killed by the Spanish Inquisition, according to modern Historians who have gone through the records of the Inquistion, (Which are quite detailed and give the defense position as well as the prosecution) only about 250 people in all of the Spanish world, (Spain, South and Central America, and the Phillipines) were burned at the pyre, about 2/3 of those were only burned in effogy, so the real number would be under a hundred.
Now compare this to the Protestant Inquisition. Calvin in Geneva, hanging hundreds in the public square for refusing to accept his new religion; or the Star Court in England, where the accused was not allowed the right to council, nor to face his accusor, where if a Catholic priest was caught offering Mass, he was given 24 hours to renounce the Faith, and if he did not, was hanged, and while still alive, drawn and quartered. The person who harbored him was imprisoned, fined and his property was confiscated and given to the Crown. That sounds fair to me, Much more fair than the Inquisition in Catholic Countries that was silly enough to allow someone to defend themselves, and where in more than 50% of the cases the people were aquitted, and let free, another 49% were given penalties and allowed to return home, pay a fine and have restrictions placed on them for a period of one to five years. Or when it became abusive was Condemned by the Pope. Yup those nasty Catholics just could not match the cruelty of the Protestants.
Nope we are not ignorant of the Spanish Inquisition, but rather admit it in it’s historical perspective. Rather than the imagination of those who have mistepresented it, and covered up their own countrymen’s abuses. If we should condemn the Catholic Church for the excesses of the Inquisition that were condemned by the Pope, than we should also condemn the Protestants who held their own Inquisitions and were not condemned by their own leaders or people.June 7, 2010 at 10:25 am #9827
It seems like you only accept it historically along with the forbidden books on some list or another because of some church council you guys had in ’69. Way to go guys. It took you about 400 years to clean up your messJune 7, 2010 at 12:07 pm #9828"Papa.Cod":2udj58ka wrote:It seems like you only accept it historically along with the forbidden books on some list or another because of some church council you guys had in ’69. Way to go guys. It took you about 400 years to clean up your mess[/quote:2udj58ka]
Hindsight is 20/20.June 8, 2010 at 12:55 am #9831"Papa.Cod":2q11x52n wrote:It seems like you only accept it historically along with the forbidden books on some list or another because of some church council you guys had in ’69. Way to go guys. It took you about 400 years to clean up your mess[/quote:2q11x52n]
no sir, we’ve been doing this long before the bible was even created ” title=”Wink” />June 8, 2010 at 3:02 am #9832"Papa.Cod":yc7umrv4 wrote:It seems like you only accept it historically along with the forbidden books on some list or another because of some church council you guys had in ’69. Way to go guys. It took you about 400 years to clean up your mess[/quote:yc7umrv4]
Since you seem to pop in with some of the most silly and unsubstantiated statements, how about telling us what “Forbidden Books” you are referring to?
I’ve yet to see you substantiate any of the attacks. I’m guessing that teasing the Catholics for maintining the Faith once delivered, is just an amusement for you. If it was the salvation of souls, you’d bring something of substance, with references to the board, but it just seems that your sandbox is full, and you feel the need to use someone else’s.June 8, 2010 at 7:08 am #9834
Me? Making “silly” and “unsubstantiated statements?” That’s ridiculous. The ‘Forbidden Books’ i’m refering to are on this website:
http://www.users.cloud9.net/~recross/wh … idden.html
James and I had a pretty long talk, so what i’m supposed to do now is to “use facts” and “resources” to help back up my thoughts. Sooooo…how am i doing? is this a good start?June 8, 2010 at 1:01 pm #9836
Papa.Cod – it sounds like you have a number of concerns regarding or negative conceptions about the Catholic Church. To aid our discussions on this forum let’s start at the root – what is the most fundamental issue you have with the Catholic Church from which all of this other stuff derives? For most people it’s the issue of authority, Scripture alone vs. whatever you think the Catholic system authority is. I recommend we start a new thread for this discussion since it would be beyond the scope of “souls in purgatory.”June 13, 2010 at 6:47 am #9859
alright alright. let me ask a few more questions…so James lent me this book called The Catholic Faith Handbook for Youth by Brian Singer-Towns and a bunch of other authors. it’s published by st. mary’s press. so anyway this was the book that James and some of his other friends used during their Catholic catechism classes on wednesday nights when James still belonged to your church (James, correct me if i’m wrong) so i looked up the afterlife and this is what it says about purgatory or at least something like this: ‘since we are neither perfect sinner or perfect saint, we believe in God’s grace but our lives are filled with sin. so we need to purify ourselves before we go to heaven. this place to clean yourself is purgatory.’ is this kinda what you guys believe in?
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