Scriptures OR Your Catechism?

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  • #1363

    Ron K
    Member

    Notice I give no personal attacks or opinions, just quotes first from Scriptures then from your Catechism. Why is there a difference?

    Just wondering what Catholics think when they see this type of message???

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Topic: The Bible only is the Standard for Truth[/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Biblical Truth The Light of God’s Word “;.[/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]the scripture cannot be broken.” John. 10:35 “Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.” John. 17:17 “That ye might learn in us not to think;above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.” 1 Corinthians 4:6 “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Proverbs. 30:6 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered;” Mark. 7:13

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]New Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994)[/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]

    Truth is based on Scripture, Tradition, and the Pope “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other.” Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) Para 80 And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. CCC Para 81 “As a result the [Roman Catholic] Church…does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.” CCC Para 82 “The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful…he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held as such.” CCC Para 891

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Topic: Salvation is by Grace Alone Through Faith [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Biblical Truth The Light of God’s Word -[/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8] “Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:24 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8, 9 “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.” Rom 5:17 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us;” Titus 3:5-6 “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:21

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]New Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]

    For Salvation Grace becomes merely a help and is given through the sacraments of the Church “Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.” CCC Para2021 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. ‘Sacramental grace’ is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. CCC Para1129 “One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience.” CCC Para 1493

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Topic: Faith is the Gift of God and comes by the Word of God [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Biblical Truth The Light of God’s Word [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]- ” Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 16:31 “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.” Philippians 1:29 “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:17

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]New Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994)[/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]
    Faith comes through the Mother Church “It is the Church that believes first, and so bears, nourishes and sustains my faith.” CCC Para 168 “Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother:…” Para 169 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. ‘No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother'” CCC Para 181

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Topic: Faith is God-given and sustained [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]
    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Biblical Truth The Light of God’s Word [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]- Christ’s Sacrifice was His alone and once offered “…Jesus said ‘It is finished:…'” John. 19:30 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” Hebrews 10:12 “…when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” Hebrews. 1:3

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]New Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]
    Christ’s Sacrifice continues, and is also of the Church “In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.” CCC Para 1367 “The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the [Roman Catholic] Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire.” CCC Para 1368

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Topic: God, the Only All Holy One and the Only Source of Holiness [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]
    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Biblical Truth The Light of God’s Word [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]- “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.” Isaiah. 6:3 “Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou only art Holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee…” Revelation. 15: 4 “There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside Thee: neither is there any rock like our God.” 1 Samuel.2:2 “I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]New Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994)[/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]
    Mary is also the All-Holy One and the Source of Holiness “By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All Holy One.” CCC Para 2677 “From the [Roman Catholic] Church he learns the example of holiness and recognizes its model and source in the all-holy Virgin Mary….” CCC Para 2030 “The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God ‘the All-Holy’ (Panagia), and celebrate her as ‘free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature'” CCC Para 493

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Topic: One Mediator [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]
    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Biblical Truth The Light of God’s Word [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]- Biblical Truth The Light of God’s Word In Salvation the Lord Jesus Christ Alone Mediates “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” 1Timothy. 2:5 “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name [Jesus Christ] under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]New Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]
    In Salvation “Mary” Also Mediates “Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation…. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the [Roman Catholic] Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.” CCC Para 969

    Topic: [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Idolatry [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]
    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Biblical Truth The Light of God’s Word[/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8] – Hates Idolatry “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything…Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.” Exodus. 20:4-5 “And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even Ten Commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake…Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure….” Dt. 4:13, 15-16 “Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen” 1 John. 5:21

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]New Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]
    The Roman Catholic Church Rationalizes Idolatry “The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype, and whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” CCC Para 2132 “Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified;the veneration of icons – of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new ‘economy’ of images.” CCC Para 2131

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Topic: Communion with the Dead [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]
    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]Biblical Truth The Light of God’s Word[/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8] – Pagan Practice is Forbidden in the Bible – “There shall not be found among you .any one… that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer, [one who calls up the dead].” Deut. 18:10-11 “And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits [divination; contacting the dead], and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people. Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I Am the Lord your God.” Leviticus. 20:6-7

    [u:3czsyma8][b:3czsyma8]New Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) [/b:3czsyma8][/u:3czsyma8]
    This Practice is Recommended by Rome – In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead…Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping “them, bur also of making their intercession for us effective.” CCC Para 958 “The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer…Their intercession is their most exalted service…We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.” CCC Para 2683

    #6796

    Victor
    Member

    [color=darkred:3lle09ji]Maybe somebody else has the energy. I surely don’t.[/color:3lle09ji]

    #6797

    Benedict
    Member

    Ron, once again, if you are just going to copy and paste material from other websites, you have to cite your source.

    #6823

    I’ll take a wack at it Vic:

    I see no contradictions. <img src=” title=”Wink” />

    Actually, I must say, I am dissapointed. While most Protestant arguments are very bad, these are particularly unconvincing.

    #7863

    Ron K
    Member

    And I’m still wondering why you ignore this, aside from a few comments that explained nothing on the subject.

    [color=red:2k7exo9z]WHY?[/color:2k7exo9z]

    #7875

    LARobert
    Participant

    Let’s start with your first misleading, misquoted twisting of the truth to fit your own perversion of what is really written Ron. If need be someone who cares to debate with someone who is duplicitious in their bating and flim flam can waste their time with you.

    You run togeather your own lies with the authentic text of the Catechism as is the habit of Anti-Catholics in history. You mislead people by including the following quote as if it is part of the Catechism….”Truth is based on Scripture, Tradition, and the Pope” By appending it to the CCC you imply that it is part of the CCC, as usual it is a simpleminded ploy to divert from the text a misleading statement. Not only do you twist the truth, but you do so in a most dishonest manner. One thing you have proven is that the truth is of little importance when it comes to attempting to prove yourself correct. Is it any wonder you don’t get answers to distorted questions?

    #7882

    Ron K
    Member

    Mr. LARoberts says that I (Ron ) have :

    1-your first misleading, misquoted twisting of the truth to fit your own perversion of what is really written

    2 – You run togeather your own lies

    3 – You mislead people by including the following quote as if it is part of the Catechism .”Truth is based on Scripture, Tradition, and the Pope” By appending it to the CCC you imply that it is part of the CCC,

    4 – a simpleminded ploy to divert from the text a misleading statement.

    5 – Not only do you twist the truth, but you do so in a most dishonest manner

    6 – One thing you have proven is that the truth is of little importance when it comes to attempting to prove yourself correct. Is it any wonder you don’t get answers to distorted questions?

    Sorry but you haven’t stated where I’ve lied? Please explain! #3 is not a lie, don’t you believe that you church ‘s majestirium traditions and Scriptures are equally important?

    #7884

    LARobert
    Participant

    When I’m suffering from insomnia, reading the plagerism from anti-catholic writers, that has been disproven for more than two hundred years is a good way to fall into a deep sleep.

    Not to worry, one day Ron will come back to Christ and His Church. One day he will finally let down his guard and let Grace into his heart. One day the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts will reign supreme.

    Your questions have been answered here and elsewhere, you refuse to answer questions and simply reply that Catholics are brainwashed. Why indeed do you not answer questions Ronald, what exactly frightens you about the truth. Why not comment in a civil and intelligent manner about the following books from former anti-catholics, who found the Sola Scriptura argument that they preached from their pulpits to be a false and hollow untruth.

    Rome Sweet Home, (Scott Hahn)
    50 Proofs for Petrine Primacy (Dave Armstrong)
    http://web.archive.org/web/200302072040 … RAZ112.HTM
    A Biblical Defense of Catholicism (Dave Armstrong)
    Surprised by Truth: 11 Converts Give the Biblical and Historical Reasons for Becoming Catholic (Patrick Madrid)
    The Spirit and forms of Protestantism (Louis Bouyer)

    Read over number three again, this time open your mind, don’t see it as a personal attack at your infallibility, but simply look at the text that is written in the Catechism, and compare it to your misrepresentation. It does not take a rocket scientist to see the difference, simply someone with a little honesty.

    #7885

    LARobert
    Participant

    For you to post an unadulterated quote, without a perversion of the text. Good thing I don’t threaten to hold my breath in anticipation of your ability to offer an honest debate Ronald.

    Still joining the hosts of heaven in praying for your eventual spiritual laser corneal surgery, so you can see the Bible and History as it is rather than how you would like it to be.

    #7886

    Ron K
    Member

    Mr. Roberts

    You say a few things that you may feel, but they are not truthful – let me point them out in your postings:


    [quote:f8y1n87d]
    When I’m suffering from insomnia, reading the plagerism from anti-catholic writers, that has been disproven for more than two hundred years is a good way to fall into a deep sleep. [/quote:f8y1n87d]
    Well good for you – whatever it takes for you I guess
    [quote:f8y1n87d]
    Not to worry, one day Ron will come back to Christ and His Church. One day he will finally let down his guard and let Grace into his heart. One day the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts will reign supreme. [/quote:f8y1n87d]
    I’ve told YOU how many times that I am in His church, you are the one out in left field or where ever, but it isn’t in HIS church!!!

    [quote:f8y1n87d]Your questions have been answered here and elsewhere, you refuse to answer questions and simply reply that Catholics are brainwashed. [/quote:f8y1n87d]
    Yes to the last part, now what have you asked that I haven’t responded to? or refused to?
    [quote:f8y1n87d]
    Why indeed do you not answer questions Ronald, what exactly frightens you about the truth.[/quote:f8y1n87d]
    What are you talking about?? Besides when did you show me truth since I’m continuously having to correct your remarks?

    [quote:f8y1n87d] Why not comment in a civil and intelligent manner about the following books from former anti-catholics, who found the Sola Scriptura argument that they preached from their pulpits to be a false and hollow untruth. [/quote:f8y1n87d]
    Another correction – that is only their opinon and yours probably as well.
    Since you feel that way, tell me another book that God wrote for us please!

    [quote:f8y1n87d]Rome Sweet Home, (Scott Hahn)
    50 Proofs for Petrine Primacy (Dave Armstrong)
    http://web.archive.org/web/200302072040 … RAZ112.HTM
    A Biblical Defense of Catholicism (Dave Armstrong)
    Surprised by Truth: 11 Converts Give the Biblical and Historical Reasons for Becoming Catholic (Patrick Madrid)
    The Spirit and forms of Protestantism (Louis Bouyer)

    Read over number three again, this time open your mind, don’t see it as a personal attack at your infallibility, but simply look at the text that is written in the Catechism, and compare it to your misrepresentation. It does not take a rocket scientist to see the difference, simply someone with a little honesty. [/quote:f8y1n87d]
    Number 3 – strange writtings –
    1 He starts out by saying Peter is the foundation that the church is built on but Peter says in 1 Peter 2:5+6 [color=red:f8y1n87d] you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
    ” Behold, I lay in Zion
    A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
    And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”[a][/color:f8y1n87d]
    2 He says a lot of good stuff but what about the other not so hot stuff as When Jesus called Peter – satan He never said that to the rest of the disciples or how Paul had to correct Peter in Galations 2? Or how James was the leader in Acts 15, or at what point did he become pope?

    Not very accurate on Armstrong’s part – that’s just me being honest – and thats what you wanted.

    AND as far as: [quote:f8y1n87d]you still waiting



    For you to post an unadulterated quote, without a perversion of the text. Good thing I don’t threaten to hold my breath in anticipation of your ability to offer an honest debate Ronald[/quote:f8y1n87d].

    I do work for my living – besides you never liked my answers before, why rush now?
    [quote:f8y1n87d]
    Still joining the hosts of heaven in praying for your eventual spiritual laser corneal surgery, so you can see the Bible and History as it is rather than how you would like it to be.[/quote:f8y1n87d]
    Good news that happened around ’95 – now lets pray for your lost soul.

    #7887

    LARobert
    Participant

    Let’s start with what a Catechism is and is not… It is not a full or total explanation of what the dogmas of the Church are, it is as it where a Readers Digest statement of the Faith. As an example your snipped CCC on the Sacraments. The portion of the Catechism that you posted does not cover the means by which we obtain the graces that come to us through the sacraments, which as an external sign of the internal graces that work within our souls which is and always has been based on the Merits of Christ Jesus. It is Christ who works through the Sacraments, not the simple workings of the Rite or the minister of the rite. The term used in Sacramental Theology is [i:361fjh1o]Ex Opere Operato[/i:361fjh1o]; It refers to the idea that the sacraments actually confer grace when the sacramental sign is validly effected, not as the result of the good standing of the minister*, or activity on the part of the recipient, but by the power and promise of God.

    According to the Roman Catholic Church, to receive the fruits of the sacraments requires one to be properly disposed. This means reception of grace via the sacraments is not automatic. There must be, at least in the case of an adult, a predispositional receptivity to receive the grace which is always available in a validly effected sacrament.

    The ex opere operato nature of the sacraments affirms that while a proper disposition is a necessary precondition to receiving grace in those sacraments, it is not the cause of the grace. What God offers in the sacraments, Catholics argue, is purely a free gift. Not even a person’s own dispositions, as good as they may be, produce God’s supernatural life in that person.

    So you can see the danger of making a selective quote from one source which is a simple tool to cover the main point but not a comprehensive tool that explains the entire point. As a subject like the Sacraments and the grace they confer is a rather large one, the Catechism much like Cliff Notes are a means of expressing some of the main points of a subject and not an exasutive means of expressing them. The Catechism should properly be used as a starting point for study of the Scriptures and the Teachings of the Church handed down to us from the Apostles. One of the fallicies of your arguments is that you like the old tale of the blind men who are asked to describe the elephant only look at one minute point taken out of context and do not look at the entire point. (I’ve got a funny story I heard last night at a St. Patricks day dinner but I’ll post it elsewhere.)

    [quote:361fjh1o]Not very accurate on Armstrong’s part – that’s just me being honest – and thats what you wanted[/quote:361fjh1o]

    Honest… I’ll take you on your word that you are trying to be honest. The fact is that most Anti-Catholics have not been trained in how to look at the Catholic Church honestly or comprehensivly, by taking a part and not the whole of each book as you are doing, what you do at best is abridge Chrisitanity to fit the narrowly edited Protestant view. But as you have opened the subject by your selective line of questions, here are some more questions for you. As for the original questions, look through the past postings where you can still find them.

    Rather than distort and misquote without citation from Catholic sources, I’d ask you to define what you say the Catholic Church teaches on the following. Mind you not your opinion of the subject, but what the Catholic Church teaches.

    1. Papal infallibility, and the role of the papacy (for the most part I have done this for you in reply to another poster)
    2. The Sacraments are a means of grace, how do they derive that grace?(woops, partially answered that one too, but I’d still ask you to flesh out the subject, take it up from where I have left off)
    3. What is the Mass?
    4. What is Justification?
    5. What is an indulgence? What is it’s history
    6. What do an Imprimater and Nihil Obstat mean
    Lastly, and not from a Catholic point of view tell us oh infallible one the answer to this….
    7. Based on Sola Scriptura Arianism can be defended nowhere in the Bible does the word Trinity come up, using Sola Scriptura defend the Trinity, and the proposition that Christ Jesus is True God and True Man.

    Once again, you tell us what the Catholic Church teaches, like an elementary school math test show your work, that is if you quote someone (remember not to cut and paste from Catholic sources as you tend to distort them) cite the source. This is not an invitation for you to beat with your bully stick Catholic Teachings, simply to define them as you understand them

    [quote:361fjh1o]I do work for my living – besides you never liked my answers before, why rush now? [/quote:361fjh1o]

    As for the ironic twist of your defending not answering quickly the questions, when you demand rapid answers to the rabid attacks you make, why are the standards different for you? I’ve yet to see you answer anything, simply dismiss anything a Catholic, (or even non-Catholic) source that anyone brings up as “Catholic Brainwashing” while you hammer away that your answer and your interpretation of the Scriptures, which contradict what was believed for the first fifteen hundred years after Christ founded His Church is what is now true. Once you have shown a good faith effort to debate in an honest manner, (I won’t hold my breath) I’ll answer to the best of my ability well thought out questions, not the same tripe you have either copied from other writers, or cut and pasted from other Anti-Catholic sources, (literary forensics at the most basic level reveals how non-creative your attacks are). After you answer the questions above, do yourself a favor, say a little prayer that God reveal to you answers to the books listed in the previous posts, go to a local library where you will not have to pay for them, and support Catholic causes, read them and give us your feedback. I for one would be willing to read an intelligent critique, point by point, not an arbitrary and isolated twisting of a single quote or section that you feel was not covered based on a webpage that only exibited a sampling of the books in question rather than the entire book.

    *I have used the term minister here because the rite of baptism may be preformed by anyone, even a non-catholic who uses water and the words of baptism, (I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost) and be held valid. In the case of Marriage the two people, (given our modern age, I’ll spell that out as the man and woman) preform the sacrament on each other by taking their vows, the priest or deacon simply acts as a wittness for the Church and offers a blessing on the marriage, a prayer that they remain faithful and the marriage is fruitful. In cases where there is no priest or deacon as in times of war or far flung mission territories where the priest comes by infrequently the couple with wittnesses may marry without a priest present.

    #7893

    Ron K
    Member

    [b:23n7jvsi]LARoberts – here is your, requested information[/b:23n7jvsi]
    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]1. Papal infallibility, and the role of the papacy [/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]From Catholic Answers[/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    Given these common misapprehensions regarding the basic tenets of papal infallibility, it is necessary to explain exactly what infallibility is not. Infallibility is not the absence of sin. Nor is it a charism that belongs only to the pope. Indeed, infallibility also belongs to the body of bishops as a whole, when, in doctrinal unity with the pope, they solemnly teach a doctrine as true. We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: “He who hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16), and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matt. 18:18).
    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]From 1994 Catechism[/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    2051 The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including moral doctrine, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed

    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]2. The Sacraments are a means of grace, how do they derive that grace?
    From 1994 Catechism[/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son’s Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.

    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]3. What is the Mass? [/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]From Catholic Answers[/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    The Mass is a participation in this one heavenly offering. The risen Christ becomes present on the altar and offers himself to God as a living sacrifice. Like the Mass, Christ words at the Last Supper are words of sacrifice, “This is my body . . . this is my blood . . . given up for you.” So, the Mass is not repeating the murder of Jesus, but is taking part in what never ends: the offering of Christ to the Father for our sake (Heb 7:25, 9:24). After all, if Calvary didn’t get the job done, then the Mass won’t help. It is precisely because the death of Christ was sufficient that the Mass is celebrated. It does not add to or take away from the work of Christ it is the work of Christ.
    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]From 1994 Catechism[/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    1382 The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord’s body and blood. But the celebration of the Eucharistic sacrifice is wholly directed toward the intimate union of the faithful with Christ through communion. To receive communion is to receive Christ himself who has offered himself for us.

    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]4. What is Justification?
    From 1994 catechism[/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]From Catholic Answers[/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    “We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation . . . for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. . . . When Catholics say that persons ‘cooperate’ in preparing for and accepting justification . . . they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities” (JD 19-20).

    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]5. What is an indulgence? What is it’s history
    From Catholic Answers[/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    “An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven” (Indulgentarium Doctrina norm 1). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven.
    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]From 1994 Catechism[/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.
    What is an indulgence?
    “An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.”
    “An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.” The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.
    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]What is its History[/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    Indulgences are part of the Church’s infallible teaching. This means that no Catholic is at liberty to disbelieve in them. The Council of Trent stated that it “condemns with anathema those who say that indulgences are useless or that the Church does not have the power to grant them”(Trent, session 25, Decree on Indulgences). Trent’s anathema places indulgences in the realm of infallibly defined teaching.

    The pious use of indulgences dates back into the early days of the Church, and the principles underlying indulgences extend back into the Bible itself. Catholics who are uncomfortable with indulgences do not realize how biblical they are. The principles behind indulgences are as clear in Scripture as those behind more familiar doctrines, such as the Trinity.

    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]6. What do an Imprimater and Nihil Obstat mean
    Impimater -(Catholic Answers)[/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]Nihil Obstat -(Catholic Answers) [/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    I have concluded that the materials
    presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.

    Lastly, and not from a Catholic point of view tell us oh infallible one the answer to this….
    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]7. Based on Sola Scriptura Arianism can be defended nowhere in the Bible does the word Trinity come up, using Sola Scriptura defend the Trinity, and the proposition that Christ Jesus is True God and True Man. [/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]

    Once again, you tell us what the Catholic Church teaches, like an elementary school math test show your work, that is if you quote someone (remember not to cut and paste from Catholic sources as you tend to distort them) cite the source. This is not an invitation for you to beat with your bully stick Catholic Teachings, simply to define them as you understand them
    [u:23n7jvsi][b:23n7jvsi]
    Based on my knowledge the Holy Spirit part of the Trinity is found [/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    Matthew 3:16 – He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
    John 14:26 – 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you
    John15:26 – 26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me
    John 16:7+8 – 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
    1 John 3:24 -24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
    1 John 5:6-8 -6 This is He who came by water and blood Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth:[b:23n7jvsi] the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

    Also the note the plural form on creation in Genesis 1:26 – our image
    Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

    [u:23n7jvsi]and the proposition that Christ Jesus is True God and True Man.[/b:23n7jvsi][/u:23n7jvsi]
    Matthew 17:5 -“This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”
    Matthew 22:32 – ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
    John 6:51 – I am the living bread which came down from heaven
    Acts 9:5 – And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
    John 4:26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”
    [b:23n7jvsi]
    LARoberts – these are but a few that you requested – Are you satisfied? (And I never said I was infallible that is your term)[/b:23n7jvsi]

    #7896

    LARobert
    Participant

    As usual you are in your own universe Ron. I was asking for you to define the individual teachings, not for you to cut and paste snippets of what the teachings are. I wanted you to be as comprehensive as possible, so we know how you define, or narrowly misdefine what the Church teaches… You have remained consistant with that, and shown that your contorting things to mean what they don’t mean is either pathological or simply due to the brainwashing you have had against the Catholic Church.

    [quote:27zbtc1v]Once again, you tell us what the Catholic Church teaches, like an elementary school math test show your work, that is if you quote someone [i:27zbtc1v][b:27zbtc1v](remember not to cut and paste from Catholic sources as you tend to distort them)[/b:27zbtc1v][/i:27zbtc1v] cite the source. This is not an invitation for you to beat with your bully stick Catholic Teachings, simply to [i:27zbtc1v][b:27zbtc1v]define them as you understand them [/b:27zbtc1v][/i:27zbtc1v][/quote:27zbtc1v]

    Until you can “fight the good fight” by honest and open debates and not shrill twisting of facts, I see no point in reading anything you write as it is based not on truth or an honest desire to save souls, but the simple desire to put people down and gloat over the belief that only you and those who believe in your man made ideas of salvation based on novel doctrines invented 1500 years after our Lord founded His Church and gave the authority to preach in His Name, heal in His Name, forgive in His Name, and “Do this in anamensis of Me” when He did found the Catholic Church.

    Just picking from your poorly selected biblical quotes on the Trinity…
    31″But about the resurrection of the dead have you not read what God said to you, 32’I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'[a]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
    When you quote ” proof texts, you need to do so with someone who is not familar with the Scriptures, that way you can distort the text. Speaking to the Chief Priests, our Lord asks if they have not read what is written, He does not explicitly say “This text is referring to Me as I am that same God” He simply asks them about a text from the OT. (Now as a Catholic I beleive the Jesus is the second person in the Trinity, but not because of a faulty use of the Bible.) None of the others prove the point of our Lord being the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, as they do not clearly and specifically state that Jesus is God, “Son” and “My Son” are attributes that we all share in as we are creatures of God. The funniest thing about your use of these texts is that the interpreteation or spin you put on them is not clear in Scripture, as Arius used the same texts to deny the Divinity of Christ, but what you have proposed are arguments that in the refutation of Arius, early Church Fathers like Tertulian, St. John Chrysostom, St. Clement of Rome etc gave as having been transmitted to them by the traditions of the Apostles and their immediate successors, not from a clearly defined Biblical Text. Yes they imply Christ’s Divinity, but they don’t directly confirm it, so either you have to accept as a plain fact that you are reading into the text something that is not there, or you have been influenced by the Traditional teachings of the Catholic Church, her Fathers, and Councils, most of all Nicea.

    #7897

    Ron K
    Member

    LARoberts

    You stated:

    [quote:2nmecafi]As usual you are in your own universe Ron.[u:2nmecafi][b:2nmecafi] I was asking for you to define the individual teachings[/b:2nmecafi][/u:2nmecafi], not for you to cut and paste snippets of what the teachings are.[u:2nmecafi][b:2nmecafi] I wanted you to be as comprehensive as possible, so we know how you define, or narrowly misdefine what the Church teache[/b:2nmecafi][/u:2nmecafi]s [/quote:2nmecafi]

    Yes and that’s what I gave you – often from your own sources such as your Catechism and Catholic answers. Now I don’t know what you expected but there it is – and now you say
    [quote:2nmecafi]
    and shown that your contorting things to mean what they don’t mean is either pathological or simply due to the brainwashing you have had against the Catholic Church. [/quote:2nmecafi]

    which is a typical type of response that I get from you so-called uppity- ups that think you can snowball anyone and everyone. I gave you my honest answers defined as I best could, but noooooo that isn’t good enough for you. I don’t think you are capabile of a “fighting the good fight” by honest and open debates [/i] without twisting THE FACTS. Seriously you remind me of the pharisees to whom Jesus spoke to in Matthew 23 –

    [color=red:2nmecafi]But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. 15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves[/color:2nmecafi].

    And I don’t care if my cut and pasting bothers you in the least, you understand what I said and what Scriptures have shown me – You are in a lost religious cult – That much I do know very clearly – with a false Gospel that saves no one except for those that can break away from your “religion.”
    [/i][/b]

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